Great Lakes Cities - Page 174

galleyfox · #**3461** Posted **Mar 20, 2023, 4:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by subterranean

This sounds a lot like some of the Villages and Boston Edison in Detroit, although this has been the case for a long time.

Dot map showing net changes

https://twitter.com/jgrantglover/sta...o_k_Q-bPyHHu9Q

Crawford · #**3462** Posted **Mar 20, 2023, 4:45 PM**

Boston Edison has been majority black since the 1960's, at least. I've read a lot about the Detroit 1967 riots/rebellion, and that specific neighborhood was pretty solidly black years before the unrest. I believe it transitioned from Jewish to black in the 1950's. Boston Edison, Alden Park and Russell Woods were the elite black neighborhoods in the 1960's.

Boston Edison is probably whiter now than in the 1960-2010 era.

iheartthed · #**3463** Posted **Mar 20, 2023, 5:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Boston Edison has been majority black since the 1960's, at least. I've read a lot about the Detroit 1967 riots/rebellion, and that specific neighborhood was pretty solidly black years before the unrest. I believe it transitioned from Jewish to black in the 1950's. Boston Edison, Alden Park and Russell Woods were the elite black neighborhoods in the 1960's.

Boston Edison is probably whiter now than in the 1960-2010 era.

Yes, it's whiter now for sure than it was in the 1980s-2000. But the neighborhood has always been relatively mixed. Berry Gordy, Aretha Franklin, Diana Ross, and others associated with the music industry lived there in 1960s and 1970s. I would guess that it became majority black in the 1980s, but it was never 100% black. I wouldn't be shocked if the core blocks are actually predominantly white now.

Detroit doesn't have any areas like Harlem, Bed Stuy, or Fort Greene that were first gentrified by black yuppies. The development patterns in Detroit are too suburban focused so most middle class black people either end up in one of the suburbanish upscale neighborhoods inside the city, or in the suburbs themselves.

Docere · #**3464** Posted **Mar 24, 2023, 7:51 PM**

I never realized how much more Catholic Chicago is than Detroit. And it's not just because of the huge Mexican population in Chicago.

From the Pew religious landscape study:

Chicago

Protestant 35% (evangelical 16%, mainline 11%, historically black 8%)
Catholic 34%
Unaffiliated 22%

Detroit

Protestant 49% (evangelical 20%, mainline 14%, historically black 15%)
Catholic 16%
Unaffiliated 24%

Among NHWs:

Chicago

Protestant 33% (evangelical 19%, mainline 14%)
Catholic 38%
Unaffiliated 20%

Detroit

Protestant 42% (evangelical 24%, mainline 18%)
Catholic 19%
Unaffiliated 26%

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion...osition/white/

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion...osition/white/

eschaton · #**3465** Posted **Mar 24, 2023, 7:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

I never realized how much more Catholic Chicago is than Detroit. And it's not just because of the huge Mexican population in Chicago.

From the Pew religious landscape study:

Chicago

Protestant 35% (evangelical 16%, mainline 11%, historically black 8%)
Catholic 34%
Unaffiliated 22%

Detroit

Protestant 49% (evangelical 20%, mainline 14%, historically black 15%)
Catholic 16%
Unaffiliated 24%

Among NHWs:

Chicago

Protestant 33% (evangelical 19%, mainline 14%)
Catholic 38%
Unaffiliated 20%

Detroit

Protestant 42% (evangelical 24%, mainline 18%)
Catholic 19%
Unaffiliated 26%

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion...osition/white/

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion...osition/white/

Detroit boomed much later than Chicago. A significant proportion of the working-class white population was actually from the South and Appalachia - the so-called "Hillbilly Highway" which ran in tandem with the Great Migration.

Essentially cities that continued to boom past the 1920 immigration restrictions only had a few ways to replace European immigrants; through inter-U.S. migration (blacks, poor southern whites, an Puerto Ricans) and to a limited extent Mexicans.

Docere · #**3466** Posted **Mar 24, 2023, 8:00 PM**

Yes, and there was a lot of Anglo-Canadian immigration to Detroit as well.

Steely Dan · #**3467** Posted **Mar 24, 2023, 9:53 PM**

Growing up catholic in Chicagoland, I had erroneously assumed that "Catholic" was the American default for my entire childhood.

Docere · #**3468** Posted **Mar 24, 2023, 10:42 PM**

You have a long history of ethnic machine politics in Chicago. The Catholic parish was a basis of neighborhood identity. The city's Irish community was very visible in politics, and it's also the capital of Polish America.

Docere · #**3469** Posted **Mar 24, 2023, 11:10 PM**

Non-overlapping first ancestry Irish, Italian and Polish from 2013. Together they added up to 19% of the Chicago MSA population. Comes very close to white Catholic population (22%) from Pew so a good proxy.

Cook County 17% (40% of NHWs)
DuPage County 26% (37% of NHWs)
Lake County 18% (29% of NHWs)

Steely Dan · #**3470** Posted **Mar 24, 2023, 11:19 PM**

^ lots of German Catholics in Chicago too, just like the rest of the Midwest.

My entire maternal side is Chicago German Catholic, now 7 generations deep.

Docere · #**3471** Posted **Mar 25, 2023, 12:08 AM**

A good number are, but I'm pretty sure a majority are Protestant. White Catholics only narrowly outnumber White Protestants 38%-33% in the Chicago metro area. German ancestry is the most common in the region, and they must be the largest among White Protestants.

Crawford · #**3472** Posted **Mar 25, 2023, 1:21 AM**

I'm really surprised at the % Catholic numbers for Metro Detroit. I knew they'd be lower than Chicago, but not that low. Just 19% of white households?

Metro Detroit does have huge Middle Eastern populations, and those would be non-Catholic but (mostly) Christian and NHW. And there are relatively large Protestant Appalachian populations. But still, Macomb County is heavily Polish, Italian and German, Downriver is heavily Polish and Hungarian and suburban Oakland and Wayne have large, prominent Catholic populations. I grew up in the most Jewish corner of Michigan, and Catholics were still almost certainly the largest local group.

Docere · #**3473** Posted **Mar 25, 2023, 1:58 AM**

2021 ACS:

Macomb County

German 143,248 16.3%
Polish 106,128 12.1%
English/American 102,444 11.7%
Italian 88,373 10.1%
Irish 82,297 9.4%
Arab 54,033 6.2%

Oakland County

German 199,932 15.7%
English/American 179,677 14.1%
Irish 129,555 10.2%
Polish 112,368 8.8%
Italian 75,379 5.9%
Arab/Chaldean 48,493 3.8%

Wayne County

German 163,614 9.2%
English/American 160,468 9%
Arab/Chaldean 116,600 6.6%
Irish 113,234 6.4%
Polish 110,664 6.2%
Italian 65,055 3.7%

mrnyc · #**3474** Posted **Mar 25, 2023, 2:06 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wigs

mrnyc, April Fool's isn't for 12 days.

wiggy please, i thought i said it was a story?

iheartthed · #**3475** Posted **Mar 25, 2023, 2:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm really surprised at the % Catholic numbers for Metro Detroit. I knew they'd be lower than Chicago, but not that low. Just 19% of white households?

Metro Detroit does have huge Middle Eastern populations, and those would be non-Catholic but (mostly) Christian and NHW. And there are relatively large Protestant Appalachian populations. But still, Macomb County is heavily Polish, Italian and German, Downriver is heavily Polish and Hungarian and suburban Oakland and Wayne have large, prominent Catholic populations. I grew up in the most Jewish corner of Michigan, and Catholics were still almost certainly the largest local group.

According to this list Detroit was the sixth largest archdiocese in the US circa 2005, so I'm sure it still has one of the highest percentages of NHW Catholic. Having said that, the numbers from the Catholic Hierarchy page do not seem to tie out with the ACS census figures. The CH web page claims that Detroit was 33% Catholic, and if you estimate that Detroit is roughly 75% NHW then the percentage of NHW that are Catholic would be at least 40%.

Docere · #**3476** Posted **Mar 25, 2023, 7:48 PM**

I wonder why there's such a discrepancy.

Boston is 52% Catholic but only 30% Catholic now. But Massachusetts has West Coast levels of religiosity now in spite of its strong Catholic roots. This is rather unique. Rhode Island and Connecticut haven't seen this. New Hampshire and Vermont have a lot of religious nones, but they're more rural and Yankee. Boston is almost like a Philadelphia/Bay Area hybrid in some ways.

Not surprising to see Buffalo the highest among the Great Lakes cities. It's about 15% Italian and 15% Polish.

Detroit comes out ahead of Cleveland, which doesn't seem right to me. Cleveland is more Eastern European and more Italian than Detroit.

Crawford · #**3477** Posted **Mar 25, 2023, 9:23 PM**

19% doesn't smell right. I cannot imagine only 1 in 5 white households in the Detroit MSA would identify Catholic. Just thinking of the Lent season and Friday fish fries, and the Catholic parishes and K-12 Catholic schools everywhere. But I could be wrong.

I was raised in a part of suburban Oakland which has a lot of Catholics and Jews, and which was historically WASP. There are vast swaths of working class white areas however, which, maybe excluding Macomb, might be heavily Protestant. Places like Taylor and Westland and Warren. Those areas had heavy Southern and Appalachian migration. I still think those areas are pretty thick with Catholic parishes and schools, however.

Wigs · #**3478** Posted **Mar 26, 2023, 12:31 AM**

At one time it was said that Buffalo was close to 1/4 German, 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Italian, and 1/4 Polish so that would be a huge amount of Catholics 50,60,70 years ago

Like everywhere the amount of non religious or those that consider themselves religious but don't attend church has skyrocketed.
Two of the biggest parties in WNY are St. Patrick's Day and Dyngus Day (post lent)

Video is 10 yrs old but shows the Polish (American) heritage being kept alive in Buffalo

• Video Link

Docere · #**3479** Posted **Mar 26, 2023, 1:12 AM**

Buffalo MSA

German 247,242 21.2%
Irish 183,248 15.8%
Italian 168,339 14.5%
Polish 156,810 13.5%
English/American 128,380 11%

craigs · #**3480** Posted **Mar 26, 2023, 3:30 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

English/American 128,380 11%

I'll say it again--self-identified English ancestry and self-identified American ancestry are not necessarily the same thing, so they shouldn't be treated as interchangeable or combined willy-nilly. People who say they have English ancestry likely know they have ancestors from England. It's fairly specific. However, some people who say "American" may simply not know where their ancestors originally came from, while others might say that as part of today's identity politics.