Irish Boston, Italian Philadelphia

[Docere]

Irish is the most common ancestry group in both, and Italian share of the population is similar, but Boston is more associated with Irish and Philadelphia in the popular imagination is more associated with Italians. Why is that?

[Quixote]

NYC, Boston, and Philly all have about the same percentage of Italian ancestry.

Boston is associated with Irish because that's by far the most predominant ethnic group. Italian is the second largest ethnic group, followed closely by French/French Canadian, and English... I think.

Despite the Irish Catholic element, Boston's also pretty WASPy. It has large English and Scottish populations relative to the other big metros, and if people claiming "American" ancestry are of Yankee stock, then English is probably the second most common European ancestry. The three biggest actors associated with Boston (Mark Wahlberg, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck), based on quick Google and Wikipedia searches, don't have any Italian ancestry. They're all a mixture of British Isles, German, and Nordic descent.

Philadelphia I have always associated with African Americans with its share of both German/English and "white ethnics," with no ancestry sticking out in particular. When I think of famous white Philadelphians, I think Joe Biden, Bradley Cooper, Bruce Willis, Tina Fey, Kevin Bacon, Chris Matthews, Pink, Carli Lloyd, Seth Green, Tommy Lasorda, Jake Tapper, Ryan Phillippe, among others. I always thought Sylvester Stallone was from NYC. He was born there and grew up mostly in DC before moving to Philadelphia at age 15; I wouldn't consider him to be a true Philadelphian.

As you can see, not much Italian ancestry there. Cooper is half Italian, Lasorda was full Italian, and Lloyd looks like she could be Italian, but I can't find anything that indicates that she is.

Sixth Sense, 12 Monkeys, Trading Places, Boy Meets World, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, etc. don't reference the Italian demographic.

[Crawford]

I'm pretty sure NY has a higher share of Italian ancestry than Philly or Boston.

I don't think Boston is WASPy, at all. It might have things associated with WASPs (Ivy League, prep schools, Eastern establishment) but the share of actual WASPs is probably tiny. Philly is probably more WASPy and less overtly ethnic, especially in the sprawl. The Main Line strikes me as more WASP than Wellesley or Weston. Boston's South and North Shore feel pretty overtly ethnic, kinda like Long Island. I don't think Philly has quite as much of that.

Re. Philly Italian and Boston Irish, pop culture probably plays a role. Rocky for Philly, the countless Irish mob Boston movies. The Departed, The Town, Mystic River. Not sure these cities had such overt identifications prior to these films.

[Quixote]

Heck, even movies set in NYC do a better job of portraying Irish characters:

Home Alone 2: Mr. Duncan, the Central Park pigeon lady
You've Got Mail: Meg Ryan's character "Kathleen Kelly"
Fatal Attraction: Michael Douglas' character "Danny Gallagher"
Cop Land: Harvey Keitel's character "Ray Donlan"
As Good as It Gets: Helen Hunt's character "Carol Connelly"

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Philadelphia I have always associated with African Americans with its share of both German/English and "white ethnics," with no ancestry sticking out in particular. When I think of famous white Philadelphians, I think Joe Biden, Bradley Cooper, Bruce Willis, Tina Fey, Kevin Bacon, Chris Matthews, Pink, Carli Lloyd, Seth Green, Tommy Lasorda, Jake Tapper, Ryan Phillippe, among others. I always thought Sylvester Stallone was from NYC. He was born there and grew up mostly in DC before moving to Philadelphia at age 15; I wouldn't consider him to be a true Philadelphian.

Joe Bide isn't from or he doesn't have any ties to Philly in any way other than the fact that he's a Philly sports fan, and that's the only link! He grew up in Scranton as a kid before his family over to Delaware. And while he lives in New Castle County, he's not considered a Philadelphian, he just lives close enough to the city!

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm pretty sure NY has a higher share of Italian ancestry than Philly or Boston.

Surprisingly, they're about the same at 12-14%. I can't remember exactly what the figure was, but I do recall all three being within 0.5% of each other.

NY definitely has more people of pure Italian ancestry, although size and generations of assimilation mean that you have lots of Italian mixed in with Jewish, Irish, Puerto Rican, etc.

In LA, it's still more common for an Armenian to marry another Armenian than not. And Armenians have been in LA since the turn of the 19th century.

[Crawford]

Yeah, not sure Joe Biden would be considered Philly. Scranton is it's own thing, and NE PA is more tied to NYC. I guess he represented Metro Philly via Wilmington area, but that doesn't really scream Philly politician.

[Docere]

5 largest ancestry groups and Jewish population via Brandeis.

Boston MSA

Irish 950,095 19.4%
English/American 654,421 13.4%
Italian 554,022 11.3%
French/French Canadian 316,563 6.5%
*Jewish 284,000 5.8%
German 270,065 5.5%

Philadelphia MSA

Irish 1,031,599 16.6%
German 850,990 13.7%
Italian 737,153 11.8%
English/American 681,577 10.9%
*Jewish 310,000 5%
Polish 261,238 4.2%

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Surprisingly, they're about the same at 12-14%. I can't remember exactly what the figure was, but I do recall all three being within 0.5% of each other.

But Italian is the most common white ancestry group in the NY area, while it ranks third in both Boston and Philly.

[JManc]

Rocky cemented (South) Philly's reputation for being Italian.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Joe Bide isn't from or he doesn't have any ties to Philly in any way other than the fact that he's a Philly sports fan, and that's the only link! He grew up in Scranton as a kid before his family over to Delaware. And while he lives in New Castle County, he's not considered a Philadelphian, he just lives close enough to the city!

He was born in Scranton and spent a portion of his childhood there before moving to Claymont, DE when he was 10 years old and remained in New Castle County through college. Okay, he's more of a Wilmington guy, but that's still part of the Delaware Valley. He's not a "Philadelphian" in the same way that someone from North Jersey isn't a "New Yorker," but the premise of this thread is based on CSA demographics.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Docere

But Italian is the most common white ancestry group in the NY area, while it ranks third in both Boston and Philly.

Yes. That and Italian-American culture is much easier to culturally exploit because it's a "different kind" of white than Irish Americans, who Catholic or not, generally have fair skin and ancestors that spoke English when they arrived in the U.S. "Irish" ancestry can be found all across the U.S., and even if a sizable portion of Irish Americans converted to Protestantism or are really Scotch-Irish (Irish by origin, but Scottish by ethnicity), they aren't seen as "ethnic" for the most part.

I don't think anyone who looks like this (Catherine O'Hara, not American and originally a redhead... red hair turns blond as you age) will have a hard time blending in with "generic" Americans.


Wikipedia

[Quixote]

I'm guessing the only "white ethnic" groups that still "stick to their knitting" more than not are Portuguese Americans in New England and Jews (probably close to 50/50 though) in NYC.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't think Boston is WASPy, at all. It might have things associated with WASPs (Ivy League, prep schools, Eastern establishment) but the share of actual WASPs is probably tiny. Philly is probably more WASPy and less overtly ethnic, especially in the sprawl. The Main Line strikes me as more WASP than Wellesley or Weston. Boston's South and North Shore feel pretty overtly ethnic, kinda like Long Island. I don't think Philly has quite as much of that.

Neither the city proper, the north and south shores, nor the suburban areas touched by subway lines are WASPy, but middle-ring auto-centric suburban Boston sure can be. I'm thinking places like North Reading (old joke: "No reading!") and Dover. And while I don't know enough about Philadelphia's Main Line suburbs to compare, if you don't think Wellesley is WASPy then you should meet the English Protestant side of my family. They either live in Wellesley or up on Lake Winnipesaukee, and whichever place they might happen to be in, they are eternally detached from reality on all sides. They thought Doritos were from Germany.

[Quixote]

Apart from Italian not being the most common ancestry in Boston, I really think it's the predominance of British Isles and French/French Canadian ethnic groups as well as the "preppy" nature of New England culture (private boarding schools, elite universities, small liberal arts colleges, general emphasis on history/tradition/pedigree and modest display of wealth) that amounts to less association with the general conception of Italian-American culture and its connotations — already shaped by NY/NJ.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by JManc

Rocky cemented (South) Philly's reputation for being Italian.

Like Boston, I think most people are aware that Philly has a large Italian population. Also like Boston, Irish outnumber Italians. But unlike NYC and Boston, there isn't a large gap between the #1 and #2 ancestry, and in Philly's case, the #1 and #2 ancestry have already been culturally exploited by Boston and NYC, respectively.

Perhaps if Philadelphia had, say, 1.5 million Greek Americans then maybe there'd be more in the way of films and television shows featuring characters with names like "Adonis Papadakis" or "Eleni Mylonas." I can't think of another European ethnic group that could be exploited/caricatured without it coming across as too culturally insensitive. Certainly not Polish or any other Slavic or Latin group.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Like Boston, I think most people are aware that Philly has a large Italian population. Also like Boston, Irish outnumber Italians. But unlike NYC and Boston, there isn't a large gap between the #1 and #2 ancestry, and in Philly's case, the #1 and #2 ancestry have already been culturally exploited by Boston and NYC, respectively.

Perhaps if Philadelphia had, say, 1.5 million Greek Americans then maybe there'd be more in the way of films and television shows featuring characters with names like "Adonis Papadakis" or "Eleni Mylonas." I can't think of another European ethnic group that could be exploited/caricatured without it coming across as too culturally insensitive. Certainly not Polish or any other Slavic or Latin group.

I'm waiting for the Scorsese movie about Polish mobsters from Chicago...

[jmecklenborg]

^Pols were definitely the lowest-ranking Catholic nationality, if you grew up in a German-dominated area. It was a carry-over from Europe, but upset a little by the Pope being Polish in the 1980s.

The hierarchy went like this:

1. German
2. French (elitist and annoying but not low class)
3. Italian
4. Polish

...with Spain/Latino as an asterisk, as there was typically no direct contact with these people if you lived in the Great Lakes region outside of Chicago. The environment has changed in much of the United States over the last 25 years, with a Spanish-language Mass appearing at many Catholic parishes, and even parishes where English masses have been replaced entirely by Spanish masses.

Of course, if Vatican II hadn't happened, everyone would be at the same Latin Masses, which was the whole point of keeping everything in Latin for nearly 2,000 years.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Quixote

He was born in Scranton and spent a portion of his childhood there before moving to Claymont, DE when he was 10 years old and remained in New Castle County through college. Okay, he's more of a Wilmington guy, but that's still part of the Delaware Valley. He's not a "Philadelphian" in the same way that someone from North Jersey isn't a "New Yorker," but the premise of this thread is based on CSA demographics.

Biden could "essentially" be a Philadelphian, but he's counted out by some Philadelphians due to job performance. Bruce Willis is essentially another Philadelphian, even though he grew up in Carneys Point, which is practically about 36 min from Philadelphia.

Bradley Cooper - Abington
Bruce Willis - Carneys Point
Tina Fey - Upper Darby
Kevin Bacon - Philadelphia (Society Hill ?)
Chris Matthews - Philadelphia (Hunting Park ?)
Pink - Doylestown
Carli Lloyd - Delran, NJ
Seth Green - Philadelphia (Overbrook Park)
Tommy Lasorda - Norristown
Jake Tapper - Philadelphia (Queen Village)
Ryan Phillippe - New Castle, DE
Sylvester Stallone - Philadelphia (Northeast)

And my personal favorite...

Joey Lawrence & the Lawrence Brothers - Abington

[mrnyc]

wat about the current actual italians and irish, who were born there and moved here, and not some self-selected family ancestry?

it seems to me there are quite a few right off the boat irish in nyc and few new italian-americans.

are there any fresh immigrant numbers?