PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Chase Center in San Francisco
TD Garden in Boston
Barclays Center in Brooklyn
Staples Center in LA
Fiserv Forum in Milwaukee
Bridgestone Arena in Nashville
Camden Yards in Baltimore
Nationals Park in DC
AT&T Park in San Francisco
PNC Park in Pittsburgh
Coors Field in Denver
Target Field in Minneapolis

But besides Barclays center, there has never been a more dense and transit assessable location that can fit an arena in perhaps the most underperforming area in all of center city.

For the people against the arena, who do you think is going to come in and save Market East? DSW, Marshalls, Century 21, Starbucks, Target, Mitchell and Ness, Rite Aid, Burger King and many other places have closed in the immediate vicinity in the last few years. 13th, 11th and 8th El stops are all sketchy at night with homeless and drug use. We've got massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 9th and Market. Are you fine with those sitting empty? I don't know about you but I'm tired of waiting for this area to take off. Tourists walk from the Marriott and Loews to old city right through a crappy run down stretch while getting panhandled and don't get the best impression of Philly. The East Market project was great with Iron Hill, TJ Maxx and Canopy Hotel but the area is still getting worse, not better. It would also force the city/Septa to make improvements to the regional rail schedules and the El which is obviously needed. The 76ers arena is 1.3 billion, they are not going to let the area fail after investing that much. They will keep it clean and safe, I don't see the downside.

Yes!!

[philly_account12]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

....The last thing we want is an arena surrounded by faux urban development or a “stadium district”.

This comment is about the existing faux urban stadium district in South Philly right? lol

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Chase Center in San Francisco
TD Garden in Boston
Barclays Center in Brooklyn
Staples Center in LA
Fiserv Forum in Milwaukee
Bridgestone Arena in Nashville
Camden Yards in Baltimore
Nationals Park in DC
AT&T Park in San Francisco
PNC Park in Pittsburgh
Coors Field in Denver
Target Field in Minneapolis

But besides Barclays center, there has never been a more dense and transit assessable location that can fit an arena in perhaps the most underperforming area in all of center city.

For the people against the arena, who do you think is going to come in and save Market East? DSW, Marshalls, Century 21, Starbucks, Target, Mitchell and Ness, Rite Aid, Burger King and many other places have closed in the immediate vicinity in the last few years. 13th, 11th and 8th El stops are all sketchy at night with homeless and drug use. We've got massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 9th and Market. Are you fine with those sitting empty? I don't know about you but I'm tired of waiting for this area to take off. Tourists walk from the Marriott and Loews to old city right through a crappy run down stretch while getting panhandled and don't get the best impression of Philly. The East Market project was great with Iron Hill, TJ Maxx and Canopy Hotel but the area is still getting worse, not better. It would also force the city/Septa to make improvements to the regional rail schedules and the El which is obviously needed. The 76ers arena is 1.3 billion, they are not going to let the area fail after investing that much. They will keep it clean and safe, I don't see the downside.

Yes the Convention Center didn't fix it, then shopping didn't fix it, but basketball games will surely fix it.

I do get the argument and again, I am ultimately neutral on the project and just disagreeing with the magic bullet aspect of it. Time will tell and can't wait to see how this plays out.

[AnEmperorPenguin]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Chase Center in San Francisco
TD Garden in Boston
Barclays Center in Brooklyn
Staples Center in LA
Fiserv Forum in Milwaukee
Bridgestone Arena in Nashville
Camden Yards in Baltimore
Nationals Park in DC
AT&T Park in San Francisco
PNC Park in Pittsburgh
Coors Field in Denver
Target Field in Minneapolis

But besides Barclays center, there has never been a more dense and transit assessable location that can fit an arena in perhaps the most underperforming area in all of center city.

For the people against the arena, who do you think is going to come in and save Market East? DSW, Marshalls, Century 21, Starbucks, Target, Mitchell and Ness, Rite Aid, Burger King and many other places have closed in the immediate vicinity in the last few years. 13th, 11th and 8th El stops are all sketchy at night with homeless and drug use. We've got massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 9th and Market. Are you fine with those sitting empty? I don't know about you but I'm tired of waiting for this area to take off. Tourists walk from the Marriott and Loews to old city right through a crappy run down stretch while getting panhandled and don't get the best impression of Philly. The East Market project was great with Iron Hill, TJ Maxx and Canopy Hotel but the area is still getting worse, not better. It would also force the city/Septa to make improvements to the regional rail schedules and the El which is obviously needed. The 76ers arena is 1.3 billion, they are not going to let the area fail after investing that much. They will keep it clean and safe, I don't see the downside.

100%, so much of the "not NIMBY" opposition ,even sadly from 5th sq, is that there are imaginary proposals that would be better then the arena. I could also imagine the mall doing really well and not wanting to sell in the first place but that doesn't make it real

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by philly_account12

This comment is about the existing faux urban stadium district in South Philly right? lol

I think Xfinity Live would be best described as a faux urban development.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by McBane

Putting the arena aside for a moment, if I had to propose one area of our city to be transformed into a generic neighborhood with a bunch of chain stores, Market East would be it. It's practically that anyway, just massively unsuccessful. Boston's Downtown Crossing is an excellent example.

I think that's what they wanted to do when they approved the video screen signage. It's just still unsuccessful

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Those are awful comparisons and pretty much exactly what people are worried about with the arena. We’re talking about building an MSG and that’s really the only example I can think of that matches this. The last thing we want is an arena surrounded by faux urban development or a “stadium district”.

MSG was a horrible mistake and should be undone.
For Market East, we are just building over a mall that has a train station, I hope the train station still gets daylight after the arena is built.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

MSG was a horrible mistake and should be undone.
....

What?? lol.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by Redddog

What?? lol.

I believe they're referring to the destruction of Penn station to build MSG, not that MSG is inherently bad. They're making the distinction that destroying the Mall for the arena isn't really a problem like destroying Penn Station was.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Yes the Convention Center didn't fix it, then shopping didn't fix it, but basketball games will surely fix it.

I do get the argument and again, I am ultimately neutral on the project and just disagreeing with the magic bullet aspect of it. Time will tell and can't wait to see how this plays out.

It's not that any one thing will fix it, but the combination of uses like the convention center, like the shopping (which will mostly remain, just consolidated), RTM, the hotels, and the arena. Having lots of different draws to keep the population higher throughout the day is the key, not necessarily the arena itself.

[mcgrath618]

Agreed re: MSG being a mistake for knocking down Penn Station. The Gallery is actually based on the Roman Bathrooms of Crapcalla!

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by gatorade_jim

i would also like to know what “faux urban development” means.

applebees

[TonyTone]

Lets not forget one of the biggest "Faux urban developments" in the world is in our big brother city to the north.

NYC's 42nd Street AKA TIMES SQUARE which is far from failing, and is one of the most visited areas in the US.

So lets not act like Market East is a successful place when we have abandoned buildings and a empty lot the size of 2 city blocks in our main entertainment district.

[iheartphilly]

^
No one is acting like Market East is successful, the biggest failure is the FDP but that's retail and the decline of malls as a whole, with a few exceptions. Coupled that with other empty storefront businesses, unsavory characters and other problems that folks on this forum have pointed out, it is less than desirable relative to what we think it should and could be.

Time Square is a unique mark of capitalism, an intersection between commercial activity and tourist attraction. We don't have another one like it in the US and done on purpose.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

MSG was a horrible mistake and should be undone.

"Madison Square Garden is my second favorite arena.
My first favorite - all the others." - Henny Youngman

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

applebees

🏆

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
No one is acting like Market East is successful, the biggest failure is the FDP but that's retail and the decline of malls as a whole, with a few exceptions. Coupled that with other empty storefront businesses, unsavory characters and other problems that folks on this forum have pointed out, it is less than desirable relative to what we think it should and could be.

Time Square is a unique mark of capitalism, an intersection between commercial activity and tourist attraction. We don't have another one like it in the US and done on purpose.

I understand what you're saying, that wasn't my point, my point was that "Faux Urban Developments" can be very successful as to my example with Times Square side thats one of the biggest examples around.

But also it's important for people to realize that cities especially successful cities are not just small businesses and boutique stores. it's a mix of things, and an entertainment district with chain stores, and an arena is what makes a city a city.

People seem to forget the whole fabric of cities is a mix of cultures and buildings put together in different times, and eras. its ever-changing every decade.

So for people to be against developments in a city that for decades was going downhill and needs the most investment it can receive it's almost amazing the amount of out cry over an arena on Market St, not in Chinatown.

[SEFTA]

OK
THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANT TO SEE ON MARKET
Let alone the rest of the streets surrounding this monster.
Blank walls and loading docks.
You seem to be confusing the success of an arena as opposed to the success of the neighborhood.
Hell, Wells Fargo is successful.
A baseball field won't fit there!
None of these arenas are good examples.
They are mostly situated in isolated areas just outside of downtowns.
Often a part of a waterfront development.
Mostly trying to create a neighborhood where there is no neighborhood.
Mostly along highways (where they belong) where no one wants to be. And it shows by the wind swept vacant sidewalks that are only filled during an event.
Otherwise they are blank.
NONE HAVE BEEN PLACED ON AN EXISTING COMMERCIAL/RETAIL STREET

Chase Center in San Francisco
Surrounded by blank walls and windswept sidewalks
This is a part of a much larger waterfront project.
Not the same
Chase Center in San Francisco COLLAGE by

TD Garden in Boston
built along the freeway (as it should be)
Trying to integrate a difficult site into the city fabric.
TD Garden in Boston COLLAGE by

Barclays Center in Brooklyn
More blank walls.
Surrounded by Best Buy and Marshalls etc. We already have that and it's hanging on by a thread.
Barclays Center in Brooklyn COLLAGE by

Staples Center in LA
Again blank wall. See a trend?
That's what comes with arena.
Don't understand why they don't put them all above a retail ground floor base.
Staples Center in LA COLLAGE by

Fiserv Forum in Milwaukee
Development coming slowly but still surrounded with parking lots.
Isolated
Fiserv Forum in Milwaukee COLLAGE by

Bridgestone Arena in Nashville
Great when there's an event.
Abandoned the rest of the time and part of a larger development
Bridgestone Arena in Nashville COLLAGE by

Camden Yards in Baltimore
Even next to transit direct to DC, little development can be claimed by the presence of a BALLPARK and which would not fit on MARKET
Camden Yards in Baltimore COLLAGE by

Nationals Park in DC
Part of a large waterfront development.
Development didn't there because of the arena
it moved there with the arena.
And, it's DC
STILL BLANK WALLS SURROUND IT!
Nationals Park in DC COLLAGE by

AT&T Park in San Francisco
Great plazas
empty
No room for that on Market
isolated
A part of a waterfront development
blank walls are what will destroy the feel of Chinatown.
AT&T Park in San Francisco COLLAGE by

PNC Park in Pittsburgh
Decades and still surrounded by parking lots.
Some generic development along the waterfront.
Next to a freeway
I feel they missed and opportunity for a great residential walkable neighborhood instead of commercial.
WHY?
They didn't think people would want to live next to a ballfield
PNC Park in Pittsburgh COLLAGE by

Coors Field in Denver
Next to a freeway
isolated
again a baseball field will not fit on Market
Coors Field in Denver COLLAGE by

Target Field in Minneapolis
Next to a freeway
isolated
NOT ON THEIR MAIN THOROUGHFARE!
Target Field in Minneapolis COLLAGE by

Rocket Mortgage Arena in Cleveland
Next to Progressive Field
WINDSWEPT!
VACANT
EMPTY LOTS!
Rocket Mortgage Arena in Cleveland COLLAGE by

And frankly this more supports my suggestion above CHINATOWN STATION!
Winter Street Park 1-15-23 e cropped by

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

I understand what you're saying, that wasn't my point, my point was that "Faux Urban Developments" can be very successful as to my example with Times Square side thats one of the biggest examples around.

But also it's important for people to realize that cities especially successful cities are not just small businesses and boutique stores. it's a mix of things, and an entertainment district with chain stores, and an arena is what makes a city a city.

People seem to forget the whole fabric of cities is a mix of cultures and buildings put together in different times, and eras. its ever-changing every decade.

So for people to be against developments in a city that for decades was going downhill and needs the most investment it can receive it's almost amazing the amount of out cry over an arena on Market St, not in Chinatown.

Yeah, I think we realize this isn't a small city. I think most of the folks are pro-development on this site, and that's obvious. But not all development is sensible development. And, this isn't putting up a building a residential or office tower in a small section and dense part of the city. For an arena, each city and location has to be studied for its merits, how it affects the surrounding neighborhood, and how it will change the character of the neighborhoods. There's no one size fits all. Look at all the pics of stadiums/arenas SEPTA put up and you can tell those look different than a 5 block radius of Market East. For the folks that are trying to do this deal, their modis operenda is to sell game tickets and to use the arena to make more money for other events. That's what billionaires want to do in this space. They aren't doing this to be white knights to save this part of the city and they aren't in the business of considering the human costs if things go sideways after it gets built. They get to walk away from the human costs but still sell more tickets. Selling tickets is what they only care about. If this does get built, it won't be reversible nor any of the negative effects. Once it's done, it can't be undone.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

OK
THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANT TO SEE ON MARKET
Let alone the rest of the streets surrounding this monster.
Blank walls and loading docks.
You seem to be confusing the success of an arena as opposed to the success of the neighborhood.
Hell, Wells Fargo is successful.
A baseball field won't fit there!
None of these arenas are good examples.
They are mostly situated in isolated areas just outside of downtowns.
Often a part of a waterfront development.
Mostly trying to create a neighborhood where there is no neighborhood.
Mostly along highways (where they belong) where no one wants to be. And it shows by the wind swept vacant sidewalks that are only filled during an event.
Otherwise they are blank.
NONE HAVE BEEN PLACED ON AN EXISTING COMMERCIAL/RETAIL STREET

[IMG]sky07 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]IMG_1317 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

All of those arenas are good examples of what you're talking about.

Except the 76 Place is the complete opposite of that and is 10X better then all of those & the gallery thats currently there.