Great Lakes Cities

[edale]

Well before the steel era, Pittsburgh was connected to Cincinnati via steamboats. Both cities were fairly substantial centers of steamboat building and commerce associated with them. So, historically, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh were connected before Cleveland even really existed.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by benp

Look at random neighborhoods in Somerville, Springfield, Hartford, Portland, etc which resemble typical streets in any Great Lakes city except maybe Chicago.

while chicago is well known to SSPers for its legions of masonry 2/3/6-flats, apartment buildings, and brick bungalows, the city still has a fair bit of good old fashioned great lakes wood-frame residential vernacular to go along with it.

it's typically a bit "tighter" than the new england examples posted above, but that's mostly an artifact of chicago's city-wide 25' x 125' standard residential lot size.

and chicago's ubiquitous alleys that bisect nearly every block in the city make side-yard driveways very rare here. the alleys are also where overhead utility wires are run, giving chicago's side-streets a "cleaner" look.


chicago wood-frame residential vernacular:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9348...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9277...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9327...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9542...7i16384!8i8192

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by edale

Well before the steel era, Pittsburgh was connected to Cincinnati via steamboats. Both cities were fairly substantial centers of steamboat building and commerce associated with them. So, historically, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh were connected before Cleveland even really existed.

Except the steamboat era was very brief and ended a long time ago. The railroad era is still going strong, 150 years on, and expressways and jet travel have now existed longer than the steamboat era.

The first railroad bridges over the Ohio River were completed in the 1870s. I imagine that back in the 1830s and 1840s, when railroads were new, that nobody expected that they could ever be made to cross something as substantial as the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers, but within fifty years the big interior rivers had been bridged in dozens of places.

[edale]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Except the steamboat era was very brief and ended a long time ago. The railroad era is still going strong, 150 years on, and expressways and jet travel have now existed longer than the steamboat era.

The first railroad bridges over the Ohio River were completed in the 1870s. I imagine that back in the 1830s and 1840s, when railroads were new, that nobody expected that they could ever be made to cross something as substantial as the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers, but within fifty years the big interior rivers had been bridged in dozens of places.

Well sure. I was just noting that Pittsburgh and Cincinnati did have fairly strong economic links through river travel and commerce. While Cincinnati wasn't a major steel center ala Cleveland, there are historic economic ties between it and Pittsburgh.

Side note, I'm aware of two steel mills in the Cincinnati area- AK Steel in Middletown (now Cleveland Cliffs), and Newport Steel in Newport, KY (now defunct). I know this is nothing compared to what exists/existed in Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Youngstown, but still somewhat interesting that there is a steel presence in the area.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Except the steamboat era was very brief and ended a long time ago.

I would argue that it never truly ended.

A fair amount of bulk cargo (grain, coal, stone, etc.) is still moved by river barge along the main navigable interior rivers - the Mississippi, the Ohio, and the Illinois.



Source: https://www.thefreightway.com/st-lou...eight-traffic/


Granted, the cargo is now moved by diesel-powered pusher tugs instead of "steamboats", but the the general concept remains the same.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Same general reason why Detroit became the center of the automotive industry. Iron came down from the upper Great Lakes, coal came in from Pennsylvania, and shipping made this heavy industry economical.

[benp]

Originally Posted by subterranean

Same general reason why Detroit became the center of the automotive industry. Iron came down from the upper Great Lakes, coal came in from Pennsylvania, and shipping made this heavy industry economical.

In the "woulda coulda shoulda" category, Buffalo was the first location Henry Ford considered for a major assembly plant before settling on Detroit. At the time, Buffalo was the larger city, was already home to several auto manufacturers, was closer to major customers and suppliers, and had a better existing transportation system.

Buffalo Auto Industry History

"Buffalo could have been Detroit," Sandoro said of Buffalo's automotive past. "Henry Ford came here in the early 1900s for an auto show. Ford wanted to build a major assembly plant here, but the city fathers didn't want to give him any incentives, so he went elsewhere."

Elsewhere was Detroit, where Ford built what was to be the company's main plant at River Rouge. Originally from nearby Dearborn, Ford had gone to Detroit in 1879 as a machinist's apprentice and went on to become a mechanical engineer there before building his first automobile in 1903.

"Buffalo was a major business center. It had power, water, skilled craftsmen and a major rail yard. Canada was nearby and you could get to Europe through the Great Lakes. And, we had good roads early on," Sandoro says.

Despite that supposed setback, Ford has been a major player in Buffalo's automotive past, as well as its present -- first with its assembly plants and later with the huge stamping plant in Woodlawn.

Among the early car companies started in Buffalo were the Kensington, Babcock, Conrad, Willet Motor Trucks, Lippard-Stewart, Atterbury, and Parenti. Better known companies were the Thomas Flyer (which won the Great Race for NY to Paris in 1908), the Pierce-Arrow (most successful, and car of Presidents until bought by Studebaker and closed in 1938), and the Playboy (last car company founded in Buffalo) in 1947.

Buffalo still has multiple operations producing components and parts for auto manufacturers, including Ford, several GM plants, Tesla, Sumitomo Rubber (formerly Dunlop), Moog, and many others.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by benp

In the "woulda coulda shoulda" category, Buffalo was the first location Henry Ford considered for a major assembly plant before settling on Detroit. At the time, Buffalo was the larger city, was already home to several auto manufacturers, was closer to major customers and suppliers, and had a better existing transportation system.

Buffalo Auto Industry History

I dunno about that story. Henry Ford was born and raised in Detroit. The township he grew up in is now part of Detroit's west side. It's not like he just randomly stumbled upon the city. He had an entire career as an engineer in Detroit before founding the Ford Motor Company.

The story I've heard that sounds most plausible is that Detroit became the automotive capital because it was the carriage capital prior to that. It became the carriage capital because of the pine forests in northern Michigan and the city's convenient location for assembling and shipping carriages to different parts of North America.

[benp]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I dunno about that story. Henry Ford was born and raised in Detroit. The township he grew up in is now part of Detroit's west side. It's not like he just randomly stumbled upon the city. He had an entire career as an engineer in Detroit before founding the Ford Motor Company.

The story I've heard that sounds most plausible is that Detroit became the automotive capital because it was the carriage capital prior to that. It became the carriage capital because of the pine forests in northern Michigan and the city's convenient location for assembling and shipping carriages to different parts of North America.

Not to say it wasn't inevitable that Detroit was destined to be the leader, but sometimes history has its twists and turns.

[edale]

Originally Posted by benp

In the "woulda coulda shoulda" category, Buffalo was the first location Henry Ford considered for a major assembly plant before settling on Detroit. At the time, Buffalo was the larger city, was already home to several auto manufacturers, was closer to major customers and suppliers, and had a better existing transportation system.

I'd say Buffalo should consider itself lucky this didn't occur.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I dunno about that story. Henry Ford was born and raised in Detroit.

I have heard that exact story applied to other cities.

[BigDipper 80]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I have heard that exact story applied to other cities.

Microsoft was similar too. Bill Gates started the company in New Mexico but ultimately moved back home and brought Microsoft with him. There was nothing inherent about Seattle that made it ripe for the tech industry, it was just that some guy happened to be from there.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I would argue that it never truly ended.

A fair amount of bulk cargo (grain, coal, stone, etc.) is still moved by river barge along the main navigable interior rivers - the Mississippi, the Ohio, and the Illinois.

Granted, the cargo is now moved by diesel-powered pusher tugs instead of "steamboats", but the the general concept remains the same.

It's unrecognizable as barge traffic has been limited to bulk cargo since WWII. In the steamboat era, it was anything - small, medium, large, bulk, and passengers.

They tried to do shipping containers on barges back in the 1970s but they've never been able to make it competitive.

If you take a boat on almost any stretch of the Mississippi or Ohio Rivers you will be surprised by how many giant industries still operate on their banks. These things typically aren't visible from any interstate highway, since no interstate parallels either river for an appreciable distance. So there's this whole world out there that is still centered around the rivers (and the railroads that often parallel them).

Places like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0405.../data=!3m1!1e3

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by BigDipper 80

Microsoft was similar too. Bill Gates started the company in New Mexico but ultimately moved back home and brought Microsoft with him. There was nothing inherent about Seattle that made it ripe for the tech industry, it was just that some guy happened to be from there.

Except in industry, particularly heavy industry, economic geography and logistics absolutely matters. Software, not so much, except for the existence of engineers. But even that is mobile.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by subterranean

Except in industry, particularly heavy industry, economic geography and logistics absolutely matters.

Yep.

High grade iron ore, high grade coal, and plentiful limestone don't usually triangulate themselves as well as they did around the great lakes region.

This place was born to make steel.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

It's unrecognizable as barge traffic has been limited to bulk cargo since WWII. In the steamboat era, it was anything - small, medium, large, bulk, and passengers.

You could say the exact same thing about great lakes commercial shipping.

Doesn't mean that it's gone away.

[subterranean]

Tangentially related to Great Lakes industry, anyone ever heard the story of how Dow Chemical (Midland, Michigan) really got going? Sometimes I randomly think of the genius of this, when I need a good laugh:

With his new company and new technology, Dow produced bromine very cheaply, and began selling it in the United States for 36 cents per pound. At the time, the German government supported a bromine cartel, Deutsche Bromkonvention, which had a near-monopoly on the supply of bromine, which they sold in the US for 49 cents per pound. The Germans had made it clear that they would dump the market with cheap bromine if Dow attempted to sell his product abroad. In 1904 Dow defied the cartel by beginning to export his bromine at its cheaper price to England. A few months later, an angry Bromkonvention representative visited Dow in his office and reminded him to cease exporting his bromine.[6]

Unafraid, Dow continued exporting to England and Japan. The German cartel retaliated by dumping the US market with bromine at 15 cents a pound in an effort to put him out of business. Unable to compete with this predatory pricing in the U.S., Dow instructed his agents to buy up hundreds of thousands of pounds of the German bromine locally at the low price. The Dow company repackaged the bromine and exported it to Europe, selling it even to German companies at 27 cents a pound. The cartel, having expected Dow to go out of business, was unable to comprehend what was driving the enormous demand for bromine in the U.S., and where all the cheap imported bromine dumping their market was coming from. They suspected their own members of violating their price-fixing agreement and selling in Germany below the cartel's fixed cost. The cartel continued to slash prices on their bromine in the U.S., first to 12 cents a pound, and then to 10.5 cents per pound. The cartel finally caught on to Dow's tactic and realized that they could not keep selling below cost. They then increased their prices worldwide.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Henry_Dow

[Crawford]

Midland is basically this small town in flat MI farmland, in a hyper right-wing corner of the state. Very odd to have this dominant global firm HQ in Midland.

I bet they have a hard time getting higher-level employees to HQ. Imagine pitching the role to someone working out of Paris or Sydney. Where do the kids go to school? What does the spouse do? Two hour drive to a real airport or serious shopping, restaurants or cultural attractions.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Midland is basically this small town in flat MI farmland, in a hyper right-wing corner of the state. Very odd to have this dominant global firm HQ in Midland.

I bet they have a hard time getting higher-level employees to HQ. Imagine pitching the role to someone working out of Paris or Sydney. Where do the kids go to school? What does the spouse do? Two hour drive to a real airport or serious shopping, restaurants or cultural attractions.

Shouldn't we be rooting for the Midlands of the world? Isn't Bentonville just a slightly bigger version of Midland? If we had more Midlands and Bentonvilles and Lubbocks, there would be a lot less polarization in this country.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Midland is basically this small town in flat MI farmland, in a hyper right-wing corner of the state. Very odd to have this dominant global firm HQ in Midland.

I bet they have a hard time getting higher-level employees to HQ. Imagine pitching the role to someone working out of Paris or Sydney. Where do the kids go to school? What does the spouse do? Two hour drive to a real airport or serious shopping, restaurants or cultural attractions.

Having gone to Midland Public Schools and my parents and many friends still living in the area, the quality of life is pretty good for a small town.

Growing up, my dad worked as an engineer for MCV next door. My mom worked at the medical center, which is now affiliated with University of Michigan. There are an embarrassment of good paying jobs for how low the cost of living is. The schools are excellent. Northwood University is there, and also Central Michigan University is 30 minutes west. I used to drive the 1 hour to MSU when I was there. I know people who commute to Lansing (70+ miles away) for state jobs. There are still a bunch of auto related manufacturing jobs, though not nearly as much as there used to be.

My wife and I have looked at real estate there recently. We could easily sell our house here in Portland and pay cash for something that would cost north of $1.5 million here, and one of us would no longer need to work.

Although fairly right wing, the other cities in the area are not. Flint, Saginaw and Bay City all have strong blue ties.

Midland definitely leans Republican, but Dow spends a lot of money on the area to attract people. It’s podunk, but there’s a AAA baseball team, an excellent library, good parks, excellent schools, pretty easy access to “up north.”