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  #6701  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2020, 11:38 PM
Ironweed Ironweed is offline
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[QUOTE=Comrade;8813769]lmao with every update, this tower loses a few floors.

When it's finally built, it'll look like...

Too funny!

Hey, remember my offer still stands when SLC builds a 500 footer.
(Can't include silly stuff like flagpoles or antennas)
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  #6702  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 1:56 AM
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ThePusherMan ThePusherMan is offline
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Demo is well underway on the Post District project. I'm surprised to see it moving forward. Seemed like a reach to me to try and develop an entire block and a half all at once but if it's happening I think it will be huge for the west side! Fingers crossed this just doesn't become the west side version of the sugar hole.
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  #6703  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 2:09 AM
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Comrade Comrade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironweed View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
lmao with every update, this tower loses a few floors.

When it's finally built, it'll look like...
Too funny!

Hey, remember my offer still stands when SLC builds a 500 footer.
(Can't include silly stuff like flagpoles or antennas)
I am not sure what offer you're talking about...and I'm kind of afraid to ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePusherMan View Post
Demo is well underway on the Post District project. I'm surprised to see it moving forward. Seemed like a reach to me to try and develop an entire block and a half all at once but if it's happening I think it will be huge for the west side! Fingers crossed this just doesn't become the west side version of the sugar hole.
I mean, it wouldn't be the first time chunks of a block were demolished for...nothing remotely close to what was originally proposed.
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  #6704  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 3:43 AM
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I like the idea of a public market at or near the Rio Grande Station. I like Hatman's proposal to turn it into the multi-modal transportation hub of SLC (similar to Denver's) a lot more.
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  #6705  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 3:44 AM
Always Sunny in SLC Always Sunny in SLC is offline
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Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
I am not sure what offer you're talking about...and I'm kind of afraid to ask.


Best response I’ve read in a long time.
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  #6706  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 4:28 PM
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delts145 delts145 is offline
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Any of you guys have webcam links handy to some of the projects downtown like 95 So. State?
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  #6707  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ThePusherMan View Post
Demo is well underway on the Post District project. I'm surprised to see it moving forward. Seemed like a reach to me to try and develop an entire block and a half all at once but if it's happening I think it will be huge for the west side! Fingers crossed this just doesn't become the west side version of the sugar hole.
The city should require financial proof that the developer can build their proposed project before granting the developer a demolition permit. The city has allowed developers to demolish too often without any building built afterwards.

Last edited by Orlando; Jan 30, 2020 at 8:04 PM.
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  #6708  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 5:02 PM
nushiof nushiof is offline
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Originally Posted by delts145 View Post
Any of you guys have webcam links handy to some of the projects downtown like 95 So. State?
http://youtah.com/utwxcams.php
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  #6709  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 8:51 PM
bob rulz bob rulz is offline
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The city should require financial proof that the developer can build their proposed project before granting the developer a demolition permit. The city has allowed developers to demolish too often without any building built afterwards.
Didn't they do that after the Sugarhole fiasco? There is definitely an ordinance that exists in Salt Lake that you can't demolish a building without an actual plan on what's replacing it.

That doesn't apply to city-owned property though, which is why the Road Home was demolished so quickly.
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  #6710  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 9:33 PM
Orpheum Orpheum is offline
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Never mind

Last edited by Orpheum; Jan 30, 2020 at 9:35 PM. Reason: Dont want to give developers any ideas
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  #6711  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing View Post
Groups seek funding to see what it would take to turn Salt Lake City’s Rio Grande Depot into a year-round public market
The Salt Lake Tribune
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/01/...k-funding-see/
I like Hatman's idea for the station better (from the transit news thread):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatman View Post
So I spent my holidays so far using CAD software from my place of employment laying out a massive hypothetical redesign of Salt Lake City's west side.

The premise is this: What if Salt Lake City completely redesigned their west side for transit and redevelopment in the same way that Denver did in the last decade?

As a quick reminder, this is what Denver's rail yards looked like in 2011, just as their redevelopment efforts got started:


You can see Union Station at the bottom right and nothing but empty space to the north. A light rail ilne runs through the nothingness to the back of the depot.

Now it looks like this:



The emptiness has been replaced with high-rises, and the former historic depot is now the centerpiece of a grand central station. Significantly, the light rail line was moved to make way for all this development, with approximately 1,500 feet of LRT being abandoned. Also a massive 900-foot long underground bus depot was built between the two rail stations. It was massively expensive, but the new developments are ready to offset that cost.

There are plenty of things to not like about the redesign too - I hate how the station is now a stub-end design and I dislike the long walk between the two rail modes, but compared with our dismal 'Salt Lake Central Station', I would pick Denver's any day.

What would happen if Salt Lake City got equally ambitious?
  • Revitalize a historic rail depot
  • Build a massive underground transit station
  • Do it even if it requires abandoning 1,500 feet of light rail track
  • Open up enough space for redevelopment to offset the massive costs

Here is my proposal:
  1. Move Salt Lake Central Station to the Rio Grande Depot and abandon the current station infrastructure
  2. Run Frontrunner, Amtrak, and the future east-west commuter rail lines down a trench below 500 West
  3. Move the Union Pacific tracks west to the freeway and open up the land between 600 West and the freeway to redevelopment.

All together, Salt Lake City would look something like this:


That image is from a Google Map I created to illustrate the potential. Light green areas show new develop-able land. 700 West street is restored to where it was before the rail yards will built 100+ years ago, and a 'green belt' of pedestrian pathways is built beside the relocated freight railroad tracks that connect downtown to the Jordan River Parkway.

Here is the link to the google map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ks...eA&usp=sharing

Let's go through the CAD drawings, starting at the south end:



Here we see that the Union Pacific tracks have been shifted to the west (bottom of the picture) in order to make room for the additional passenger tracks. Beginning at the 13th South viaduct these five tracks will start to drop below ground level at a 2% grade. From there they will curve eastward on the old Rio Grande passenger ROW under I-15:



It is hard to see, but I have also redesigned the 900 South freeway ramp to direct to 500 West. This design is entirely up to UDOT standards and shows exactly how much impact such a realignment would cause.
I've also realigned the access roads under the viaduct in order to maintain access to existing properties, hence the extra road on the north side of the trench.
By the time the tracks go under the first road, they should be down to 28' below grade level in preparation of going under 500 West. the cross-section will look like this:



This view is looking north. Amtrak is the track on the far left (west), FrontRunner are the two tracks in the middle, and the two tracks on the right (east) are the east-west commuter rail line that will connect Park City to Salt Lake City and Tooele Valley.
Again, this is not a guesstimate - these measurements and standards are taken directly from standard design guides and are based heavily on the railroad trench recently constructed in Reno, Nevada.

Above the trench will be 6' deep beams, upon which a 1' deep bridge deck will be laid for cars to drive on. The new 500 West will have two lanes in each direction and will have a grassy median in the middle, where ventilation shafts can be opened between the bridge beams.

Here is a view with both the rail trench and the road design laid on top of one another, showing how the ventilation shafts will look from above:



At the Rio Grande depot the tracks will spread out so that three below-grade platforms can be built between the tracks (the Amtrak track will split into two station tracks immediately before and after the island platform:



I have put a large plaza just west of the Rio Grande depot that connects to elevators and escalators to all three platforms. There are also escalators and elevators on the far north and south ends of each platform as well, making four access points to each platform.

To the west of the plaza is a bus loading zone 16' wide. There is then a 10' wide bus lane for boarding/alighting, and a 12' bus-only lane, then a curb and gutter. This means that 500 West effectively ends at 400 South, and all non-bus traffic must turn left or right. Buses arriving on I-15 can travel directly up 500 West and terminate their routes at the new Salt Lake Central Station.
Here is a kindergarten-level drawing of what it will look like, complete with a cut away in the lower right!


Another bad drawing of how the depot fits into the larger layout of the new Salt Lake Central Station:



To the east of the depot, on Rio Grande street, I have placed the TRAX line on the west edge of the street. By braiding the tracks (having them cross over each other) both the northbound and southbound stations can be built as side stations, meaning that nobody needs to cross any roads to access the TRAX platforms. People will need to go through the main hall of the depot, and all the parking on the east side of the depot will need to be replaced with pedestrian plazas, all of which will be built to handle the larger crowds anticipated for both FrontRunner in the future and the new commuter rail ilne to Park City and Tooele.



North of the depot the tracks will return to their 5-track formation and will all begin to climb up to ground level - except for the two commuter rail tracks on the east, which at this point are headed west to Tooele. These two tracks will remain below grade in order to pass beneath the other three tracks. As they curve west they will also pass beneath the Union Pacific mainline and the Salt Lake Garfield & Western Railroad tracks.

Another view, this time with North to the top:



This shows the new commuter line tracks fitting in exactly where the Union Pacific tracks now are, while the UP tracks will be shifted south to make room.


______________

So, is this plan plausible?

Yes, I have showed that geometrically such a layout can fit downtown.

But what is the point moving Salt Lake Central Station only one block further east?

Quality and Quantity, The Rio Grande depot is a much better station building than anything that can be constructed on the current Salt Lake Central site. It is larger and has accommodated large crowds in the past. It was built to be a grand entryway for Salt Lake City, and it would be wonderful to use it that way again:



As for quantity, the current Salt Lake Central station is not large enough to handle the projected ridership of an increased FrontRunner service. Having people cross the FrontRunner or TRAX tracks at-grade is not acceptable or safe for larger crowds, and the platforms are so narrow that crowding and jams will become common. Creating wider platforms and grade-separating the pedestrian walkways with escalators and elevators between TRAX and FrontRunner platforms will cost millions of dollars and will create many service disruptions.

Speaking of crossings, there is also the safety argument. By running the passenger tracks below grade, there will no longer be any conflicts between pedestrians/vehicles and passenger trains. With FrontRunner going to 15-minute schedules in the future, that would mean a train passing through downtown at least every 7.5 minutes, and more if trains ran more frequently during peak hours. There have already been a few pedestrian fatalities downtown, including this one in 2018:

https://www.deseret.com/2018/7/20/20...ing-group-ride

By placing the tracks below grade, the crossings at 900 South, 800 South, 200 South, and 600 West would be eliminated for passenger trains, leaving only a few freight trains a day.

How much will all this cost?

The trench in Reno, Nevada, is a comparison. This project through their downtown cost $200 million for a trench about as long and a depot restoration even more intense than what is proposed here. Considering, though, that my trench is wider and has a road on top, I would place the costs at about $400-$500 million.

How can this be paid for?

A variety of sources. First, by opening the rail yards for development, Salt Lake City would make about 85 acres of new land available as taxable downtown real-estate.
UDOT would also be vital in covering the cost. Railroad crossing safety is UDOT's responsibility, and 4 crossings are effectively being closed with this project. Usually grade separations cost many tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars, so a very large chunk could be paid off as 'safety improvements.'
There are also considerations of what money would need to be spent if this plan is not enacted. Some sort of depot building will eventually need to be built at Salt Lake Central Station, which will cost on its own several 10's of millions of dollars, and will probably be a sore-spot between UTA and the public for many many years. Other major pieces of infrastructure, such as the I-15 bridge over the UTA tracks and 900 South, cannot handle any more tracks and would need to be completely rebuilt to handle a second FrontRunner track. By running the UTA tracks through the trench, this I-15 bridge will not need to be rebuilt, saving several hundreds of millions of dollars on its own.



I think this proposal has the potential to actually be built, and it would transform Salt Lake City's west side and reinvigorate our transit system.
What are your thoughts?
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  #6712  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 10:53 PM
nushiof nushiof is offline
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  #6713  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 11:10 PM
SLCPolitico SLCPolitico is offline
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I couldn't find any past posts with this images, so apologies if it's already been shared but I found these renderings of plans for the Zephyr Apartments proposed to be built at 360 W 200 S. Currently in the process of requesting design review for additional height.





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  #6714  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 11:55 PM
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Marvland Marvland is offline
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Hell yes hatman

That's the best dreamer post I've seen on this site! Well played. You (we) should take to a few council members and the mayor and have a few chats! Not sure why but SLC really struggled with the big picture in 2000 lead up to the Olympics. This is comprehensive, efficient and smart design. Kudos!

I really like the 900 S. Changes too. I sat in on an RDA session exploring a number of different scenarios to do away with that terrible offramp. Alas, Udot doesn't think like us and has shown no interest in changing.
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  #6715  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob rulz View Post
Didn't they do that after the Sugarhole fiasco? There is definitely an ordinance that exists in Salt Lake that you can't demolish a building without an actual plan on what's replacing it.

That doesn't apply to city-owned property though, which is why the Road Home was demolished so quickly.
Correct and it has been an unmitigated disaster. It's literally the reason we have hundreds of hollowed out crack houses waiting to burn down. Ask me how I know.
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  #6716  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 12:48 AM
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I believe it would be very wise to discuss these kinds of ideas with our leaders. Outside of this forum, I’ve never heard any of our concerns properly address by anyone in the city.

Hatman, great stuff overall.
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  #6717  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 1:18 AM
stayinginformed stayinginformed is offline
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Correct and it has been an unmitigated disaster. It's literally the reason we have hundreds of hollowed out crack houses waiting to burn down. Ask me how I know.
900 West between North and South Temple???
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  #6718  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 1:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob rulz View Post
Didn't they do that after the Sugarhole fiasco? There is definitely an ordinance that exists in Salt Lake that you can't demolish a building without an actual plan on what's replacing it.

That doesn't apply to city-owned property though, which is why the Road Home was demolished so quickly.
I'm not sure they have. They let the Millenium Tower people or AEUrbia people demolish the buildings on that site, and now both proposals are dead.
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  #6719  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 1:35 AM
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Woa! For a minute there, I thought this was going up on the derelict Zephyr club building on the SE corner of W Temple and 3rd South. And, I was about to put up some sort of rock and roll emoji. That corner definitely needs some love.

But, regardless this is decent infill project. It does seem pretty massive for the area, and lower facade seems quite banal, but better than nothing. More infill projects, please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLCPolitico View Post
I couldn't find any past posts with this images, so apologies if it's already been shared but I found these renderings of plans for the Zephyr Apartments proposed to be built at 360 W 200 S. Currently in the process of requesting design review for additional height.
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  #6720  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2020, 2:46 AM
Utah_Dave Utah_Dave is offline
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Great Post Hatman! That’s a ton of time and effort to put something like that together and post it for us. Thank you for that.

Remind us if there is some version of this transit hub that could possibly be incorporated into the Draper Prison land too when that gets developed. If they could tie in light rail and extend down into parts of Utah county and incorporate FrontRunner into a transit hub for that coming development that would really take the sting out of what will happen down there. I’m really dreading the possibility of downtown development becoming stagnant while development and the State focus their efforts down there.

I would definitely like to hear about everyone’s thoughts when it comes to the Draper Prison land. I pretty much see it as a massive head wind to SLC development when this area gets underway.

A nice transit hub connecting that site with downtown SLC would be the only silver lining for me. One other possible bright spot would be if a college was started on some of that land that was tech and health based. That would seem like a nice spot to have a research and development health institute/ university.

Wrong thread, I know, but just for discussion sake.
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