Atlantic Highways Thread

[Pugsley]

I don't think tolls are going to fly unless they were for a better route between Saint John and Fredericton as "an alternative" and likely a private/public partnership, if anything.

That said, for the comments around twinning based solely on traffic volume, that isn't always the rationale. Often twinning or improving a highway between two places is done purely to improve the economic growth of the region. For Route 7, I feel this has long been overdue as a project to help kick-start more growth in the southwest of NB. Improvements to the TCH had an immense impact on Moncton's growth and to a degree, that of Fredericton. A better connection between Saint John and Fredericton could further boost connectivity and growth between the two cities, especially if there was a western re-alignment off of the CFB Gagetown lands, to provide more connectivity and potential growth for communities in southwestern NB.

Higgs has $400M in surplus from last year and the clock is ticking on an additional matching from the federal government close to that amount we've yet to take advantage of specifically for infrastructure projects like this. So why we are not fast-tracking some kind of project, regardless of location is a mystery to me.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Often twinning or improving a highway between two places should be done purely to improve the economic growth of the reason. For route 7, I feel this has long been overdue as a project to help kick-start more growth in the southwest of NB. Improvements to the TCH had an immense impact on Moncton's growth and to a degree, that of Fredericton.

I really don't think twinning highways is the impetus for growth that people make it out to be, especially not in rural areas. Charlotte County hasn't exactly boomed with their twinned highway to the border, and the same would be true for any twinned highway heading towards Miramichi, Bathurst, or elsewhere. I'm conflicted on whether or not extra lanes between Fredericton and Saint John would lead to more travel between the two.

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Higgs has $400M in surplus from last year and the clock is ticking on an additional matching from the federal government close to that amount we've yet to take advantage of specifically for infrastructure projects like this. So why we are not fast-tracking some kind of project, regardless of location is a mystery to me.

I think there are better ways to utilize that infrastructure money rather than building more highways. Urban infrastructure, public transit, intercity transport options would all be better ways to spend funds than another twinned highway through the woods.

[Dengler Avenue]

Easy on the tolls.
You guys are making me wonder if my Ford Edge can fit through this hole under TCH: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dyBzSKfjHXvn62W5A?g_st=ic
Otherwise, it’s gonna be a huge detour via QC-289 and N.B.-120 to sneak in.

[Taeolas]

The issue with the Highway 1 twinning, is that it is basically incomplete. It's a spur, so unless you have a reason to go out on it, you aren't going to use it. US-9 to I-95 would need heavy upgrades to make NB-1 a proper connector highway that could really spur growth, and that's not happening any time soon it seems.

It's sort've the same problem with SJ, it has the cargo rail connections at least, but it doesn't have the highway connection. If you want to take proper highway from SJ to the rest of Canada, you need to a 150km detour towards Moncton and back before you properly start going to the rest of Canada (or even to I-95).

Linking SJ to Freddy with a proper divided highway would make it MUCH safer than the current highway (especially in winter / windy weather), and it would effectively move the city 150ish KM closer to the rest of Canada.

While I'd love to see it all done "Now", it isn't something that needs to be done all at once.

Twinning the areas closest to SJ is a no brainer, get it done up to the base basically. (And given the landscape that is probably one of the hardest areas to do anyways, but it would probably be the most worthwhile for the "Sacred Traffic count" reasons).

From there, they can start doing longer term planning.

Do they punch a new route entirely, to head right to the TCH maybe? (Most expensive of course but maybe most beneficial, since it gets SJ closer to the ROC while not really pulling it away from Freddy)

Or maybe skirt the base so they can serve the communities in between better. (Medium expensive)

Or do they just double up on Route 7 as is and call it a day. (Least expensive, the ROWs are done, and the land is relatively good for the most part).

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

It's sort've the same problem with SJ, it has the cargo rail connections at least, but it doesn't have the highway connection. If you want to take proper highway from SJ to the rest of Canada, you need to a 150km detour towards Moncton and back before you properly start going to the rest of Canada (or even to I-95).

Linking SJ to Freddy with a proper divided highway would make it MUCH safer than the current highway (especially in winter / windy weather), and it would effectively move the city 150ish KM closer to the rest of Canada.

How many people choose to detour towards Moncton to get on the TCH to points west of NB? I'm guessing that almost never happens, so no, it doesn't move the city closer to the rest of Canada.

I'm not sure that Route 7 is all that unsafe. Fatalities along it are very rare.

Originally Posted by JHikka

I think there are better ways to utilize that infrastructure money rather than building more highways. Urban infrastructure, public transit, intercity transport options would all be better ways to spend funds than another twinned highway through the woods.

This x100.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by OliverD

How many people choose to detour towards Moncton to get on the TCH to points west of NB? I'm guessing that almost never happens, so no, it doesn't move the city closer to the rest of Canada.

I'm not sure that Route 7 is all that unsafe. Fatalities along it are very rare.

It's not so much that they are detouring to Moncton to go to points west.

It's more a matter of people planning routes and wanting divided highways for the route as much as possible. To get to/from SJ, they see they either have to take a 2 lane highway (of unknown quality if they are planning from Toronto or Montreal and don't know the lay of the land) for 100km... or 250km of divided highway to get there.

Frankly, the fact that we haven't had a Bathurst Boys in Red incident on Route 7 is probably as much pure luck than anything else. I've driven back to Freddy from a high school Basketball tourney at Harbour Station in a wintery freezing rain/snowy mess, and it was NOT FUN at all, and I certainly did not feel safe at all. But as soon as I hit the divided highways at Oromocto, my stress levels dropped significantly because I knew at least my chances of someone blinding me and/or skidding into my lanes were significantly diminished.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

It's not so much that they are detouring to Moncton to go to points west.

It's more a matter of people planning routes and wanting divided highways for the route as much as possible. To get to/from SJ, they see they either have to take a 2 lane highway (of unknown quality if they are planning from Toronto or Montreal and don't know the lay of the land) for 100km... or 250km of divided highway to get there.

Frankly, the fact that we haven't had a Bathurst Boys in Red incident on Route 7 is probably as much pure luck than anything else. I've driven back to Freddy from a high school Basketball tourney at Harbour Station in a wintery freezing rain/snowy mess, and it was NOT FUN at all, and I certainly did not feel safe at all. But as soon as I hit the divided highways at Oromocto, my stress levels dropped significantly because I knew at least my chances of someone blinding me and/or skidding into my lanes were significantly diminished.

I get what you’re saying about driving in the winter. I’ve went up to Woodstock to take the I95 to Bangor during snowy weather before, rather than driving through the airline highway as it is only two lanes.

What needs to happen though, is the return of passenger rail to Saint John AND Fredericton. A connection to Amtrak in Brunswick would also do wonders for tourism is both regions. If I could take a train to Bangor rather than drive, I would do it in a heartbeat. Even just a Bus service would be amazing, as it currently doesn’t exist. There should also be extra bus routes added between Saint John, Moncton & Fredericton.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

It's more a matter of people planning routes and wanting divided highways for the route as much as possible. To get to/from SJ, they see they either have to take a 2 lane highway (of unknown quality if they are planning from Toronto or Montreal and don't know the lay of the land) for 100km... or 250km of divided highway to get there.

Again... I'm not sure this is something people actually do.

[Bishop2047]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Again... I'm not sure this is something people actually do.

I think the whole twinning Fredericton to SJ debate is a non-starter. In theory it could and should happen, but simply having two large (by Atlantic Canadian standards) cities close to one another does not mean there is a lot of traffic. Both cities function more or less independent of one another, and there is not much in the way of commuter traffic.

On the other side of the province many smaller/medium sized communities are dependent on Moncton for plenty of services and thus much more traffic coming from many feeder communities specifically located along the Eastern Shore area.

If the communities between Freddy and SJ were larger one may be able to justify the infrastructure spending, but as it is there is just a whole lot of nothing (with some nice views), and not much in the way of intra-city commuting.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

I think the whole twinning Fredericton to SJ debate is a non-starter. In theory it could and should happen, but simply having two large (by Atlantic Canadian standards) cities close to one another does not mean there is a lot of traffic. Both cities function more or less independent of one another, and there is not much in the way of commuter traffic.

On the other side of the province many smaller/medium sized communities are dependent on Moncton for plenty of services and thus much more traffic coming from many feeder communities specifically located along the Eastern Shore area.

If the communities between Freddy and SJ were larger one may be able to justify the infrastructure spending, but as it is there is just a whole lot of nothing (with some nice views), and not much in the way of intra-city commuting.

The feds expropriated communities that could fill that role when they built the base. A giant island of enforced permanent nothing between Geary and Welsford puts a real damper on connectivity.

And regarding the train comment above, Fredericton ripped out all its rail and replaced it with walking paths. So good luck with that one. You'd need to run new rail north from Blissville or Fredericton Junction to the city, then on to like Minto or something. Probably not viable. There wouldn't be any freight worth mentioning leaving Fredericton, so it would be a line for exclusively passengers in a region VIA really doesn't care to service in the first place.

Sadly Maine and the US don't seem interested in upgrading either the highway or train access. Bangor should be much better connected to New Brunswick than it is, for its own good, but that's not happening.

Rail expansion to a city that explicitly de-railed, and expecting anything from the US, are way more pie in the sky than twinning 18 km of highway over no water features.

[PEI highway guy]

I DROVE TO SHEDIAC BRIDGE THIS WEEKEND. ON HIGHWAY 11 THEY HAVE PAVED THE NEW SOUTHBOUND LANES NORTH OF SHEDIAC RIVER AND ARE WORKING ON HOOKING UP THE NEW LANES WHERE THE 4 LANE STARTS PRESENTLY. THIS SHOULED BE OPEN BEFORE cHRISTMAS BASED ON WHAT I SAW

[MonctonRad]

Good to hear. I will remain pissed off however over the decision by Higgs to not twin the Cocagne River Bridge.

[PEI highway guy]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Good to hear. I will remain pissed off however over the decision by Higgs to not twin the Cocagne River Bridge.

I think the 2nd coocagne bridge will get done, however, a change in government may need to occur, possibly at both levels, to make it a reality

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by PEI highway guy

I think the 2nd coocagne bridge will get done, however, a change in government may need to occur, possibly at both levels, to make it a reality

Not at both levels. The twinning of Highway 11 is a pet project of Dominique LeBlanc. It's Higgs who is the problem. His focus is on Saint John and SW New Brunswick, not the Acadian shore.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Not at both levels. The twinning of Highway 11 is a pet project of Dominique LeBlanc. It's Higgs who is the problem. His focus is on Saint John and SW New Brunswick, not the Acadian shore.

Uhm, I don't that is a fair statement given Saint John's constant clashing with the province on tax assessments as well as multiple cancelled projects in the area like the NB museum. Besides, Greater Moncton has had more than enough taxpayer investment and love by the province over the past 20 years and it is time to spread the love.

[adamuptownsj]

The issue is, 1) NB Liberals tend to support patronage projects in Liberal turf, and not launch any in PC turf; and 2) NB PCs tend to cancel patronage projects in Liberal turf, and not launch any in PC turf either.

One patronage-minded PC government would do Saint John wonders, lol.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Not at both levels. The twinning of Highway 11 is a pet project of Dominique LeBlanc. It's Higgs who is the problem. His focus is on Saint John and SW New Brunswick, not the Acadian shore.

Not to get off on a SJ v.s. Mon discussion because I know we all enjoy that BUT…
if you are curious to know, here is a file that essentially went dead once Higgs became Premier. Aspects of this project are now being funded by the city of Saint John.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4533795

Apart from the harbour bridge refurbishment project which is a disaster when you consider it has a 6- year timeline there really hasn’t been anything exciting coming down the loop.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Uhm, I don't that is a fair statement given Saint John's constant clashing with the province on tax assessments as well as multiple cancelled projects in the area like the NB museum. Besides, Greater Moncton has had more than enough taxpayer investment and love by the province over the past 20 years and it is time to spread the love.

Sticking to the issue at hand, the AADT on NB 11 south of Bouctouche justifies twinning. Funding had been secured to divide this highway, and the project had been announced with both federal and provincial representatives present. This included all necessary bridges. Work had already begun.

Higgs was then elected. I'm sure he would rather have cancelled the whole thing, but work had begun and was too far advanced to scuttle completely, but he cancelled the twinning over the Cocagne River (at the cost of losing federal funding). This decision seemed arbitrary, partisan and unwise (since it left federal funds on the table).

I wish politics were left out of funding decisions regarding highway projects, or, at least that such decisions were not so obviously partisan in nature (north vs south) or, related to cronyism (Irving's Highway to Prosperity from Saint John to the US border at Saint Stephen).

I love the highway to Saint Stephen BTW. It's just that it is really a highway to nowhere (the Americans will never divide the highway on their side of the border), and, there are other highways in the province with higher traffic counts that could justify twinning even more (11 north to Richibucto, 7 between Saint John and Oromocto).

[stephan.richard]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Sticking to the issue at hand, the AADT on NB 11 south of Bouctouche justifies twinning. Funding had been secured to divide this highway, and the project had been announced with both federal and provincial representatives present. This included all necessary bridges. Work had already begun.

Higgs was then elected. I'm sure he would rather have cancelled the whole thing, but work had begun and was too far advanced to scuttle completely, but he cancelled the twinning over the Cocagne River (at the cost of losing federal funding). This decision seemed arbitrary, partisan and unwise (since it left federal funds on the table).

I wish politics were left out of funding decisions regarding highway projects, or, at least that such decisions were not so obviously partisan in nature (north vs south) or, related to cronyism (Irving's Highway to Prosperity from Saint John to the US border at Saint Stephen).

I love the highway to Saint Stephen BTW. It's just that it is really a highway to nowhere (the Americans will never divide the highway on their side of the border), and, there are other highways in the province with higher traffic counts that could justify twinning even more (11 north to Richibucto, 7 between Saint John and Oromocto).

I agree with you 100% on this statement the Route 1 twinning project to Saint Stephen was useless in nature and a four lane highway project going nowhere. I know that there were plans in the State of Maine to extend the I-395 from Bangor/Brewer to Route 1 but that never took off and I don’t think it will take off in the time being.

Living in Kent South I am as pissed off at Premier Higgs for turning his back on the residents that still have to navigate the non-twinned highway portions and I hope that once the Liberals get back that the situation will change. Plus being a former member of the executive of the PC party of New Brunswick I have brought this issue forward and have gotten dead air to when the official completion will be on route 11 Beyond what they have done now. All they have left after this is 2 possibly 4 km’s left to complete the twinning. Plus the Higgs government is bragging about a 777 million dollar surplus why not use 100 million of that to finish the project and increase safety.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by stephan.richard

Plus the Higgs government is bragging about a 777 million dollar surplus why not use 100 million of that to finish the project and increase safety.

Cuz that's not how surpluses work.