Statistics Canada Reports II

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

I've met some Montreal Anglos who almost seemed to take pride in learning little French and getting along without it. It seems difficult to relate to as a perspective. Doesn't a lack of French limit your opportunities if you live in Quebec, even in Montreal? And it must be pretty helpful professionally in Quebec to be fully bilingual.

This attitude seems very rare among Francophones in English-speaking provinces. Some may be resentful of English (rarely) or proud of French but they almost all speak English quite well.

It's also really weird to me, but I'm a pretty extreme example of the opposite, I'll welcome any justifiable opportunity to learn a language. (Currently fluent in three, but unfortunately I absolutely cannot "make a business case" for any other. I have a buddy from uni who lives in Zurich and I was telling him lately I envy him for having an actual reason to learn German.)

I could never see myself living anywhere (Montreal, New Brunswick, Miami, El Paso) without ending up speaking both local languages. It's just so limiting if you don't.

[lio45]

On a related note, for a real life example, I'm pretty sure I shared that memory already on this forum, I was stranded on the side of the road with car troubles in rural El Paso County in TX and the Good Samaritan who stopped to help me did not speak a word of English. If this Acadian crab fisherman wants to go anywhere, and his car breaks down somewhere in non-Acadian rural New Brunswick, and the guy who shows up to help happens to be an Anglo, wouldn't the crab fisherman like to be able to communicate with his helper? You have to be *really* sheltered to find it acceptable to not bother to learn an useful local language, IMO.

(Same applies to the Fat Eaton Lady if she ever wants to go anywhere outside her bubble: car troubles in Saint-Pit-du-Clos, she'll be sorry she can't speak.)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's also really weird to me, but I'm a pretty extreme example of the opposite, I'll welcome any justifiable opportunity to learn a language. (Currently fluent in three, but unfortunately I absolutely cannot "make a business case" for any other. I have a buddy from uni who lives in Zurich and I was telling him lately I envy him for having an actual reason to learn German.)

It's very easy to learn Spanish if you speak English and French and super useful. German and Italian are easy adjacent languages but have less practical value on average.

The ones I didn't really take to, despite spending a while in the respective countries, were Portuguese and Dutch. I tried to learn a little Dutch at one point and just gave up. I don't have experience learning a language like Chinese where my starting level would be 0. Learning French if you speak English is presumably much much easier.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's very easy to learn Spanish if you speak English and French and super useful. German and Italian are easy adjacent languages but have less practical value on average.

The ones I didn't really take to, despite spending a while in the respective countries, were Portuguese and Dutch. I don't have experience learning a language like Chinese where my starting level would be 0. Learning French if you speak English is presumably much much easier.

My ex-gf is now married to a Brazilian so trilingual (French, English, Portuguese). I suppose Portuguese could be on the table, should I ever find opportunities in Brazil, but right now, even my most-outside-the-box investment plans involve only Spanish-speaking countries of the Caribbean and South America.

While in Vancouver, I knew it was temporary, but Punjabi could have been useful, it was the language of 95% of my workforce. The difference being, it wasn't a local language, so in the long run, it might not be that useful for that purpose. (Make long-term plans in Brazil, it makes sense to learn Portuguese; make long-term plans in Vancouver, it still makes little sense to learn Punjabi.)

I worked on learning Japanese as a pastime project, it's a fairly simple language but very alien which adds difficulty -- and then add the characters on top of that, and it's far from as easy as picking up a related language (as you correctly point out).

[niwell]

I am abysmal at learning new languages despite having put a lot of effort into attempting French. For this very reason I don't think I could ever move to Montreal even though I greatly enjoy the city. It would just be far too limiting as an English only speaker - plus I'd just *feel bad*. Same goes for a lot of other countries and part of the reason that the only place I've lived abroad (Johannesburg) was intentionally mostly English.

Though of course if it came down to it I'd try my best and I'm sure pick up a lot more than I currently have! The thought of being somewhere and intentionally forgoing the local language seems baffling to me.

[Acajack]

The thing is, a lot of these people who refuse to speak French in Québec even after living here a long time don't actually view French as the local language. They see it as an ethnic curiosity type of thing, almost something temporary that will eventually go away.

To them, Québec is just a gigantic ethnic neighbourhood.

Face it. Most of us would not become fluent in Italian if we rented an apartment in Little Italy or Chinese if we moved to Chinatown.

They have the same view of French in Québec.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

yeah, maybe. So what you are implying is that it is justified, either way?

seems toxic to me.

No, just that one might explain the other.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

He had the luxury of living his life entirely en francaise hors Quebec. This is his right. The same right no longer exists in Quebec for anglo Quebecers. Is this right?

Ask that to the president of Air Canada. But ask him in English, otherwise he will not understand your question...

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The thing is, a lot of these people who refuse to speak French in Québec even after living here a long time don't actually view French as the local language. They see it as an ethnic curiosity type of thing, almost something temporary that will eventually go away.

I'd like to think it's a rare perspective but I've spoken with a couple people who said something along the lines of "why are The French such special snowflakes that they couldn't learn English along with all the other immigrants who came to North America?", referring to French in Canada.

If you polled Canadians I'd imagine a small but significant number would have no clue that Canada was originally the French part of North America (and that is one critical factor in why it didn't become part of the USA).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'd like to think it's a rare perspective but I've spoken with a couple people who said something along the lines of "why are The French such special snowflakes that they couldn't learn English along with all the other immigrants who came to North America?", referring to French in Canada.

If you polled Canadians I'd imagine a small but significant number would have no clue that Canada was originally the French part of North America (and that is one critical factor in why it didn't become part of the USA).

It's an ignorant attitude that has been growing as a result of our population diversifying.

Recently it has also been joined by the hyping up of French as a nasty illegitimate colonial language, in parallel with a growing consciousness of Indigenous issues. English is mentioned about once for every time French is portrayed 100 times in this negative light.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

But, that's the thing, they have been there for centuries, and, therefore they feel entrenched. They feel their culture in Quebec is no less valid than the Quebecois culture. New immigrants however know what they are getting into.

...

I've often got the impression, from Quebec Anglos I've known, that Quebec Anglo culture was distinct as well, very different from Ontario Anglo, etc., with a distinct accent.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Tangents are sometimes good and sometimes not, and the Quebec separatism tangent has not been particularly good at raising the level of the conversation (notwithstanding a small subset of contributions). There is a thread for that topic, so let's get back to Statistics Canada and issues pertaining directly to Canada's population statistics.

Reposted for emphasis.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

I've often got the impression, from Quebec Anglos I've known, that Quebec Anglo culture was distinct as well, very different from Ontario Anglo, etc., with a distinct accent.

If indeed Anglo-Quebec culture is unique then a significant part of that uniqueness is related to rubbing shoulders with the francophone majority in the province and just being a minority in general.

Turn Quebec into New Brunswick and make Montréal mainly anglophone and that uniqueness is lost. You get Ottawa and Toronto people basically.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If indeed Anglo-Quebec culture is unique then a significant part of that uniqueness is related to rubbing shoulders with the francophone majority in the province and just being a minority in general.

Turn Quebec into New Brunswick and make Montréal mainly anglophone and that uniqueness is lost. You get Ottawa and Toronto people basically.

Perhaps, but does that mean all other Anglo places in NA don't have any distinct culture; is NYC the same as Boston, or even Philadelphia, is Maine the same as South Carolina? (When I say Quebec Anglo, it is naturally centered on Montreal of course.) By the same token, you would expect any older Canadian cities of any size to have generated their own cultures. St. John's is not the same as Halifax, largely because they each have a long history; it's the same with Montreal, regardless of Anglos being a minority or not. Quebec, whether you like it or not, has been exterminating a specific Anglo culture within its borders, a micro cultural genocide.

[isaidso]

Ontario will hit 16 million today. The Population Clock has Ontario at 15,999,266. I suppose, Ontario will surpass New York State before the decade is out.

[lio45]

We're assuming Poilievre will choose to continue the Scheme?

(It's a matter of significant importance to me, I'd like to bet on the correct outcome. So far it's a coin toss...)

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by lio45

We're assuming Poilievre will choose to continue the Scheme?

Strong population growth scheme? He surely will but not at current levels.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Strong population growth scheme? He surely will but not at current levels.

If PP reverts back to the levels of the Chretien-Martin-Harper bipartisan consensus, that would be a big victory for Canadians.

[theman23]

Reverting to Harper/Martin/Chretien era targets of 300-350k newcomers a year would still have as the fastest growing country in the G7. We've always had "strong population growth".

Trudeau era growth is beyond that. It has us amongst the fastest growing countries in the world. Our peers are now South Sudan and Syria, except we're the only country on that list that seems to want uncontrolled growth rates.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by theman23

Reverting to Harper/Martin/Chretien era targets of 300-350k newcomers a year would still have as the fastest growing country in the G7. We've always had "strong population growth".

Trudeau era growth is beyond that. It has us amongst the fastest growing countries in the world. Our peers are now South Sudan and Syria, except we're the only country on that list that seems to want uncontrolled growth rates.

Wow, don't tell the Liberals we are peers to Syria and Sudan. They just might tout that as the Canadian advantage.