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  #21  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2021, 12:33 PM
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200kph intercity operation in the UK was tolerated because most of the UK’s population is heavily concentrated and (relative to other intercity railway networks) the network operates frequently to mitigate the slower train speeds. With the WCML, MML and ECML at capacity, that has necessitated the requirement to build a new line (HS2), and because it will be on a new alignment it is being built up to 360/400kph standards.

If Canada is going to propose a new intercity route/heavily upgrade existing lines, then building it to 200kph is an odd decision, and would make a future upgrade unlikely due to the higher cost and disruption. To understand how problematic it is to upgrade an existing intercity corridor, the WCML upgrade makes good reading.

The smart decision would be to retain and modify the service; increase frequencies, with more stops and running shorter distances. It would act as a longer distance commuter service and a feeder into the HFR line.
Lessons that should be learned from the UK.........
(1) Having 300 kph max speed trains require building an entirely brand new alignment.
(2) It is difficult enough to achieve 200 kph max speeds in existing rail alignments built during the steam locomotive era where max speeds of steam locomotives in a straight line was limited to 160 kph.
(3) Signaling systems in use determine both how fast and how frequent trains can go.

Recognize the idea that one can take an existing alignment laid out and built during an era where trains rarely reached speeds of 160 kph and upgrade it for speeds reaching 300 kph or more is for all practical purposes impossible.

As for high frequencies being proposed, few have recognized how it will be achieved. It is being achieved by having normal frequency services on two separate corridors.

AKA; A train every hour on each equates to a train every half hour on both.

They are only proposing new trains on the new corridor, and they are not proposing eliminating trains on the old corridor.
Whereas you will be able to ride a train every half hour between Toronto and Montreal, you will not be able to reach Kingston or Peterborough every half hour.

If they electrified the new corridor to lower emissions using new Sprinter locomotives, the existing trains on the existing corridor will still be powered by Charger diesel locomotives. I doubt the Canadian government will grant CN Billions to electrify CN's owned corridor, it is much more likely they will on VIA's owned corridor.

Last edited by electricron; Jul 20, 2021 at 12:46 PM.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2021, 12:45 PM
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The idea with retaining service on the existing line is for it to be local service only, not half the service between the major cities. I recall comments saying that most trains will terminate at Kingston, and not through run.

The idea is that if you are going from Toronto to Ottawa or Montreal, you use the new corridor. The old corridor is left for local service to Trenton, Cobourg, Kingston, Belleville, etc. as it's frequently disturbed by freight service and is unreliable.

A sort of similar condition exists between Toronto and London today - most people going between those two destinations use trains on the southern rail corridor through Brantford as it delivers ~2 hour travel times. There is service on the northern corridor through Kitchener, but it's 3+ hour travel times, which means it is mostly for local service.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2021, 12:53 PM
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The idea with retaining service on the existing line is for it to be local service only, not half the service between the major cities. I recall comments saying that most trains will terminate at Kingston, and not through run.

The idea is that if you are going from Toronto to Ottawa or Montreal, you use the new corridor. The old corridor is left for local service to Trenton, Cobourg, Kingston, Belleville, etc. as it's frequently disturbed by freight service and is unreliable.
Maybe. But I am having a difficult time imagining passengers from Windsor or London wishing to ride all the way to Drummondville being asked to transfer twice, once in Toronto to board a new electric powered train and a second time in Montreal to board a diesel powered train. Why not just ride the diesel powered train all the way on the existing corridor.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2021, 12:59 PM
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Because very very few passengers would be making a trip like that and those that would will see 1+ hour travel time savings by making the transfer.

Via already doesn't really through run service from Southern Ontario up toward Quebec, most trains already terminate at Toronto Union, so it wouldn't be anything new.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 12:35 PM
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Because very very few passengers would be making a trip like that and those that would will see 1+ hour travel time savings by making the transfer.

Via already doesn't really through run service from Southern Ontario up toward Quebec, most trains already terminate at Toronto Union, so it wouldn't be anything new.
Also the only run through trains in Montreal are Ottawa-Quebec City trains.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 4:32 PM
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Also the only run through trains in Montreal are Ottawa-Quebec City trains.
Wow! I did not realize there were no single seat train rides between Quebec and Windsor, or Quebec and Toronto. Off hand, maybe the ride is too long or the trains are too slow?
Per Trippy web site, Quebec to Windsor is around 716 miles, and around 10.9 hours to drive. That average speed is around 66 mph. The fastest trains between Montreal and Toronto only average around 61 mph taking around 5.5 hours to go 335 miles.

So an 11 hour ride on a train means an 8 am departure ends around 7 pm.
For a more friendly ride taking just 8 hours between Windsor and Quebec, the train would have to average 89.5 mph over the same 716 miles.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 4:51 PM
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Most people travelling between Windsor and Quebec would just fly. But even then, there are only going to be a very small number of trips between those two metros, we are talking about a metro of 300k and another of 800k that are separated by 700+ miles and a language barrier. It's sort of like someone taking the train from Lexington KY to New Haven CT. Not a lot of people making that trip in the first place, and those that do are probably flying for it.

"the Corridor" for VIA is long, but is really broken into 3 subregions. Quebec, Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, and Southern Ontario. The vast majority of ridership occurs in the middle portion and there isn't a lot of overlap of riderhip between the three.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 11:44 PM
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Most people travelling between Windsor and Quebec would just fly. But even then, there are only going to be a very small number of trips between those two metros, we are talking about a metro of 300k and another of 800k that are separated by 700+ miles and a language barrier. It's sort of like someone taking the train from Lexington KY to New Haven CT. Not a lot of people making that trip in the first place, and those that do are probably flying for it.

"the Corridor" for VIA is long, but is really broken into 3 subregions. Quebec, Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, and Southern Ontario. The vast majority of ridership occurs in the middle portion and there isn't a lot of overlap of riderhip between the three.
I expect we will see more through trains on HFR (Quebec City to Toronto) because of the single line design and the likelihood of more or less hourly service throughout. Local shorter distance trains will remain on the existing corridors. There will be no sense in maintaining the existing separate services, Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City and Ottawa-Toronto except when the service hours are too early or too late in the day to run trains the full distance.
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  #29  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2021, 1:26 PM
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High-performance rail service is a solid intercity solution for Canada
August 16, 2021
Policy Options Excerpt

Canada can have a network of modern, swift, affordable and efficient passenger trains, like virtually every other industrialized nation. Yet it doesn’t.

In the 1970s, both the American and Canadian passenger train systems were taken over by their federal governments. Since then, Canada has slowly dismantled most of the VIA Rail system while Amtrak, the U.S. national train system, has been improved and stabilized. Amtrak’s growing network of regional rail corridors has been especially remarkable.

Greg Gormick, an analyst and policy adviser, has suggested that high-performance rail (HPR) is the best means to improve and expand our skeletal network of deteriorating rail service. Canadian politicians and advocates at both federal and provincial levels have made calls for high-speed rail (HSR) like France’s TGV and Japan’s bullet trains.

High-speed rail operates on all-new electrified lines built from scratch at a very high cost because it operates on tracks with no grade-crossings and must be separated from freight. High-performance rail, in contrast, incrementally improves all aspects of the existing service and builds on what little public funds have already been invested in it. Operating at progressively higher speeds with modern trains on tracks shared with freight trains, high-performance rail offers increased frequency, reduced travel times, better on-time performance, all-weather reliability and enhanced comfort and onboard amenities.

More : https://policyoptions.irpp.org/magaz...on-for-canada/
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  #30  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2022, 6:19 PM
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https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...849273628.html

Minister of Transport announces the establishment of the VIA Rail subsidiary to support High Frequency Rail and appoints three founding members to its Board of Directors
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OTTAWA, ON, Dec. 15, 2022 /CNW/ - High Frequency Rail will transform passenger rail service in Canada through the creation of a faster, more frequent, accessible, and sustainable rail service among the major centres of Québec City, Trois-Rivières, Montréal, Ottawa, Peterborough, and Toronto.

Today, the Minister of Transport, the Honourable Omar Alghabra, announced key milestones for the High Frequency Rail project: the establishment of VIA HFR – VIA TGF Inc. (VIA HFR) to manage the development of the new High Frequency Rail project and the appointments of the first three Directors of the Board.

VIA Rail Inc. has incorporated VIA HFR as a new, wholly owned subsidiary and has appointed three founding directors to its Board of Directors: Robert Prichard, Marie-José Nadeau, and Robert Fonberg. Mr. Prichard will serve as Chair and Ms. Nadeau will serve as Vice Chair.

These three founding directors bring a formidable combination of strategic leadership skills and experience from the private and public sectors, with the capability of building a Crown corporation subsidiary able to deliver on an historic transformation of passenger rail service in Canada. They will immediately focus on the recruitment and selection of VIA HFR's Chief Executive Officer (currently underway) and the recruitment of additional directors to complete the seven-person board.

VIA HFR will operate at arms-length from VIA Rail and will act as a dedicated project office for the High Frequency Rail project. In the near term, the Government of Canada is leading a procurement process to select a private developer partner for the project. Once this partner is selected, VIA HFR will work with the partner to design and develop the new High Frequency Rail project, in close coordination with VIA Rail.

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"The incorporation of VIA HFR and its role as a dedicated Project Development Office is an important step in the realization of High Frequency Rail in Canada. I thank VIA Rail for its role in creating VIA HFR and its continued support for the project, and I am pleased that Messrs. Prichard and Fonberg and Ms. Nadeau have agreed to serve as the founding members of the Board of Directors. VIA HFR is now well-positioned to lead the biggest Canadian infrastructure project of the century."
The Honourable Omar Alghabra
Minister of Transport

Quick Facts
VIA HFR will report to Parliament directly through the Minister of Transport.
The head office for VIA HFR will be located in Montréal, with another office in Toronto.
Recruitment for the CEO of VIA HFR is underway (more information is available here)
Ongoing collaboration between the Government of Canada, VIA Rail, VIA HFR, and the private developer partner is the best approach to promoting innovation, designing better service for travellers, improving risk management, and ultimately delivering a world-class High Frequency Rail system for Canadians.
High Frequency Rail could transform intercity passenger rail in the Toronto to Québec City corridor through a variety of project outcomes, including, but not limited to:
Shortening average journey times between major cities;
Providing more frequent departures between major cities;
Offering more reliable and improved on-time performance;
Adding new services to Peterborough and Trois- Rivières; and
Providing a greener rail system and cleaner travel option using electrified technology.
Budget 2022 provided Transport Canada and Infrastructure Canada with $396.8 million over two years, starting in 2022-23, to continue advancing key project activities and undertake the procurement phase of the project.
The next steps in the High Frequency Rail procurement process include:
Request for Qualifications: January 2023
Request for Proposals: Late spring 2023
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  #31  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2022, 6:26 PM
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  #32  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2022, 6:26 PM
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https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/202...transports.php

The project is "real", says the Minister of Transport

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(Ottawa) The high-frequency rail project is starting to take a little more shape. So much so that the federal government plans to launch a call for tenders next fall to companies wishing to carry out this project, the largest in the country's history.

Transport Minister Omar Alghabra is adamant. The high-frequency train, which should connect Quebec and Windsor, is well underway, even if there are still several steps to go.

“The high-frequency train is no longer a vague concept. It starts to take shape. It's real,” said Minister Alghabra in an interview with La Presse to provide an update on this file.

Several companies interested
This project, in which Ottawa has already invested or set aside a billion dollars, is obviously arousing a lot of interest from businesses. In the spring, the Department of Transportation issued a call for Expressions of Interest. In all, 54 companies responded to the call while some requested clarification on certain elements of the project, including the roles and responsibilities of government and the private sector.



At the beginning of next year, Ottawa intends to launch a call for qualifications before proceeding to the formal call for tenders in the fall. Mr. Alghabra indicated that he would not be surprised if a consortium formed by companies showed up during the call for tenders.

The federal government has decided to create this year VIA TGF, a subsidiary of VIA Rail, to oversee the execution of the project. The members of the board of directors of this subsidiary will be appointed shortly.

“It's such a massive project — the biggest infrastructure project in the country's history — and you have to go through several steps before you break ground,” he insisted.

He said the high-frequency train, which will be largely electrified except in urban centers due to existing infrastructure, will have its own corridor of new and dedicated tracks that will stretch some 1,000 kilometers.

The first phase will connect Quebec and Toronto, with stops in Trois-Rivières, Montreal, Ottawa and Peterborough. The second phase will connect Toronto and the city of Windsor. The Minister challenges companies to come up with a project that would allow the train to reach a cruising speed of 300 km/h.

The Minister points out that the idea for such a project was launched in 2017, but has started to really gain momentum in the last two years.

“Right now, we are focusing on phase 1 of the project, the corridor between Quebec City and Toronto. The second phase of the project between Toronto and Windsor will come later. »

"Unknown cost"
Mr. Alghabra refused to give an estimate of the costs of the project, as he had declined to do last March during a press conference at the Montreal maintenance center of VIA Rail, where he had formally invited the private sector to take part adventure.

“The cost remains unknown because things are changing rapidly. And it would be irresponsible of me to put forward a figure knowing that it will not hold water later, ”he said.

Currently, Canada is the only G7 country that does not have high-speed rail. The federal government assessed this option, but ruled it out because of the prohibitive cost (at least $65 billion for the Quebec-Toronto corridor) and the risks associated with operating a TGV during the winter season.

In an interview, Mr. Alghabra said he is very impressed with the rail network in France. “The French model is a very good example for us to follow as far as I am concerned. France has a very good rail network that connects regions and urban centers. We are learning from France and that is very useful for us,” he said.

He recently met in Montreal with his French counterpart, Clément Beaune, on the occasion of the International Civil Aviation Organization conference. The main topic on the agenda was the high frequency train file.

Mr. Alghabra also indicated that he met with the leaders of Amtrak, in the United States. Amtrak also plans to build a new high-speed link between Philadelphia and Washington.
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  #33  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2022, 10:12 PM
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God I sure hope so. I have waited all my life for this. The best times were back in the 70s with CN's turbo trains. those were cool (even if they malfunctioned a lot of the time).
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  #34  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 2:15 AM
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This is something that should've been built a long time ago. But hopefully now we can move past the political mistakes of prior years and invest in proper high speed rail transit.
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  #35  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 2:23 AM
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Why wait until next fall to call for tenders? Why not do it immediately? Give the vendors some time to answer the call, 5 months should be more than enough time. Why wait another year to make the call?


It will be impossible to achieve 300 kph cruising speeds on a rail corridor designed for less than 200 kph maximum speeds. VIA is presently purchasing Siemens built trains capable of 125 mph (201 km/h).
Amtrak's new Auro built trains by Siemens can operate on diesel or overhead electric using a part of the car immediately adjacent to the locomotive at 125 mph maximum speeds. Seems like the perfect solution for VIA and the new higher frequency train services.

I would be happy if they could achieve 125 mph maximum speeds over most of the new rail corridor. And that will require much more money than many think it should.
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  #36  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 10:35 AM
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Why wait until next fall to call for tenders? Why not do it immediately? Give the vendors some time to answer the call, 5 months should be more than enough time. Why wait another year to make the call?


It will be impossible to achieve 300 kph cruising speeds on a rail corridor designed for less than 200 kph maximum speeds. VIA is presently purchasing Siemens built trains capable of 125 mph (201 km/h).
Amtrak's new Auro built trains by Siemens can operate on diesel or overhead electric using a part of the car immediately adjacent to the locomotive at 125 mph maximum speeds. Seems like the perfect solution for VIA and the new higher frequency train services.

I would be happy if they could achieve 125 mph maximum speeds over most of the new rail corridor. And that will require much more money than many think it should.
Why is it impossible? The Northeast Corridor in the East Coast (Boston to DC) is replacing the Acela trains with the Avella Liberty Trains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avelia_Liberty) which should be able to have regular service at about 160 mph (260 mph).

The Northeast Corridor is the predecessor to the Pennsylvania Railroad, which used to be state of the art, which moved at a rate of 75 mph at the time. I'm thinking that the Quebec City-Windsor corridor has a similar operating speed. Why doesn't the Canadian gov't rebuild the Toronto-Montreal corridor into a four track ROW where the faster HSR trains can occupy the inner two tracks while the slower trains and flight occupy the outer two? Also, for the size of Canada and the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, four hours would still be considered too slow and I can understand why people would rather either drive or take the plane to those cities as opposed to waiting for the train just to travel to those two cities.

If we measured the distance of Toronto and Montreal, a speed at a 125 mph (200 kph) would be too slow if you were to include stops at Oshawa, Belleville, Kingston, Ottawa, Cornwall, and Dorval, we'd have a estimated time of arrival between Toronto and Montreal at about 3 hrs considering the 10 minute wait time between the intermediate stations. Oshawa, Belleville, Kingston are urban areas which boast up to 100K people or have the potential of holding that much and Cornwall is another city that can hold up to 100K people since Montreal is an hour drive from Cornwall and people can commuter from Cornwall to Montreal if real estate prices get too high in Montreal.

Finally, why are the mid-sized cities of Oshawa, Belleville, Kingston and Cornwall being bypassed in favor of Peterborough, Smiths Falls, and Fallowfield? Also, HSR service looks like it can work for Laval & Trois Rivieres, but I'd prefer to see a two-track HSR ROW separate from the main line with stations close to Trois Rivieres, Charny, Ste Foy, and Quebec (Gare du Palais) at the eastern bank of the St Lawrence River as opposed to the western bank since there seems to be so much uninhabitable land on the eastern bank.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Parliament and the MPs of those mid-sized towns strikes the plan due to the relatively slower speeds in comparison to Europe, Asia, and in America for rail transit as well as the lack of HSR service in the mid-sized cities between Toronto and Montreal. It looks like a boondoggle in my eyes until the Canadian government can propose much better than this plan.
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  #37  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 3:03 PM
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Why is it impossible? The Northeast Corridor in the East Coast (Boston to DC) is replacing the Acela trains with the Avella Liberty Trains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avelia_Liberty) which should be able to have regular service at about 160 mph (260 mph).
The new Avelia trains will only be going faster than 125 mph over a short distances where there are mostly straight tracks; the 25-30 miles between Trenton to Brunswick in NJ, and the 20 miles between Providence to North Kingston in RI. That's just 45-50 miles of the NEC that is 453 miles long, and they are going no faster than 160 mph (257 km/h) No one in the world considers it a true High Speed Rail service (300 km/hr and faster).

If you want 300 km/h and faster trains you need to completely rebuild "all" the curves in the railroad right-of-way.That adds costs as new right-of-way needs to be pruchased from neighboring land owners, not a cheap thang to accomplish.
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  #38  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 5:02 PM
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The new Avelia trains will only be going faster than 125 mph over a short distances where there are mostly straight tracks; the 25-30 miles between Trenton to Brunswick in NJ, and the 20 miles between Providence to North Kingston in RI. That's just 45-50 miles of the NEC that is 453 miles long, and they are going no faster than 160 mph (257 km/h) No one in the world considers it a true High Speed Rail service (300 km/hr and faster).
According to the info, the technology is supposed to allow for up to 160 mph (260 km/h) for regular operating speed, 186 mph (300 km/h) maximum operating service w/ tilting, & 220 mph (350 km/h) maximum speed w/o tilting. If the trains couldn't go faster than 125 mph, then I don't believe that the manufacturer (Alstom, makers of the famed TGV trains in France) constructed them for use in America plus what's the purpose of replacing the Acela if the trains can't go faster other than bringing in brand new rolling stock.

It remains to be seen what will be the speed once the Avella Liberty trains come to revenue service after this year. The reason why the Avella Liberty won't go faster than 125 is because of the amount of stations between Boston and DC, in which there is a lot between the Northeast Corridor. It wouldn't make any sense for the trains to operate 150 mph between stops all the time, as the train sets need to speed up, slow down, or brake and come to a complete stop depending on the circumstances as well as how close they are to a station.

The true test would be to place those types of trains between cities where the distance is about 100 miles, meaning it could be ideal for Chicago-Detroit, Chicago-St Louis, Portland-Seattle-Vancouver, and even San Diego-Los Angeles-San Francisco service, where the distances between cities are much greater than in the East Coast. You're not going to get the 150 mph effect between Boston and Providence, NYC, Newark & Philadelphia, and Baltimore & DC, albeit, traveling 125 mph is a lot better than the 75-80 mph that the now older Acela trains used to operate on.

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If you want 300 km/h and faster trains you need to completely rebuild "all" the curves in the railroad right-of-way.That adds costs as new right-of-way needs to be pruchased from neighboring land owners, not a cheap thang to accomplish.
When it comes to the East Coast, I wouldn't want it that fast, as the Acela trains did their job at going at what we considered high speed rail here (80 mph). It's best to once again place the Avella Liberty where distances between major cities are much longer than 100 miles.

I can understand redoing the trackage and making the ROW as straight as possible, but the trains do not have to go 186 mph (300 kph) just to have the best service. I'm pretty sure if the Canadian project would go 150 mph during the relatively straighter Cornwall-Oshawa segment, so long as the ROW is grade-separated.

The distance between Montreal & Cornwall and Toronto & Oshawa only needs up to 100 mph due to the shorter distances while the Kingston-Ottawa & the Ottawa-Montreal segments do need to be considered as that's the curviest segment in the project and I'd restrict the speed to 100-120 mph just because of the frequent curves.

Hopefully, once the Toronto-Montreal is built (if if gets built that way), then that would open up service between Montreal-Quebec City, Toronto-London-Windsor, and hopefully services between Montreal and Boston/New York, Toronto-Detroit, & Toronto-Niagara Falls-Buffalo-Albany-NYC.
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  #39  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 5:10 PM
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Just a note but HFR is not planned to run through Kingston, but rather Peterborough. Half the point of the project is to pull trains off the congested lakeshore rail corridor which is full of freight trains. Trains will reconnect with the existing line in Smith Falls outside of Ottawa.

So smaller cities like Oshawa, Cornwall, and Kingston won’t be serviced. Stops will basically be Toronto - Peterborough - Ottawa - Montreal - Troi Rivières - Quebec.

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  #40  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 7:53 PM
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Just a note but HFR is not planned to run through Kingston, but rather Peterborough. Half the point of the project is to pull trains off the congested lakeshore rail corridor which is full of freight trains. Trains will reconnect with the existing line in Smith Falls outside of Ottawa.

So smaller cities like Oshawa, Cornwall, and Kingston won’t be serviced. Stops will basically be Toronto - Peterborough - Ottawa - Montreal - Troi Rivières - Quebec.
If the smaller cities like Oshawa, Belleville, Kingston, and Cornwall won't be served by Canada's HSR plans, I don't know how the HSR route will actually be successful! I'm also not sure if the much smaller cities of Peterborough, Smith Falls, Fallowfield, and Alexandria will actually support the HSR going through their towns.

I still like the fact that Canada is actually talking and making plans to actually supporting HSR, but I still don't support the alignment to smaller towns when the bigger, mid size cities can actually support HSR service. Mid size cities in the NE Corridor such as New Haven, Metropark (Edison Township), Trenton, & Wilmington are just as dynamic in supporting HSR like their big city counterparts than placing HSR in smaller towns like Peterborough, Smith Falls, Fallowfield, and Alexandria due to their relative bigger sizes in comparison to to towns. It almost sounds like the Springfield monorail from the Simpsons.



I also believe the cons about the HSR will be construction noise as well as ongoing traffic, detours within the towns associated with the project, the train noise that comes with HSR as well as the rising costs of materials. If the Trudeau administration is able to pull this off, more power to him, but from my personal opinion, I don't see this plan taking off as it is due to the fact that it bypasses a lot of the mid size cities as well as the relative lower speed of 120 mph as opposed to 150 mph introduced with the Avella Liberty in the US. Doesn't even matter your political ideology, I don't really see too many politicians supporting it and it's more than just cost alone!
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