Broadway Corridor Development Plan & Project Updates

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

That the housing market has come to this, halting all development in a huge part of the city so that we can do what we should have done decades ago and come up with a proper plan for it.

All development is not halted.

[LeftCoaster]

Yes that is an oversimplification on my part, but the point stands, this is a mess.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

That the housing market has come to this, halting all development in a huge part of the city so that we can do what we should have done decades ago and come up with a proper plan for it.

It's politics, largely. Too many people are against density to make opening up for it across the city viable.

http://www.vancouversun.com/density+...021/story.html


(I can't quote it, Vancouver Sun is down right now, but it makes the point I made above).

[Vin]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

All development is not halted.

Close to being halted for decades. Name large new projects along the to stretch from Granville to Cambie during the last 20 years. I can count with just one hand.

So yeah, nothing new now.

This area should have been brimming with new developments like in Metrotown, Brentwood, Richmond city cente or even Surrey Central if policies had been favourable, being essentially a part of downtown Vancouver and all.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Close to being halted for decades. Name large new projects along the to stretch from Granville to Cambie during the last 20 years. I can count with just one hand.

So yeah, nothing new now.

This area should have been brimming with new developments like in Metrotown, Brentwood, Richmond city cente or even Surrey Central if policies had been favourable, being essentially a part of downtown Vancouver and all.

Another series of gross exaggerations. It's a two-year freeze on permits; existing construction and proposal submission continues, and we certainly will not be waiting "for decades."

There's 502, 510, 988, 1964, 2080 and 2103 West Broadway, Crossroads, 2538 Birch, 2501 Spruce, the Park Inn & Suites rebuild, 1745 West 8th, 565 West 10th, and dozens of properties sold or waiting to be sold. Once again, everybody's been waiting on the Broadway SkyTrain, and now that it's close to construction, they're all coming out with proposals. Planning an extension downtown takes time, and rightly so; just because the suburban councils have been playing with their jurisdictions like they have Infinity Gauntlets doesn't mean Vancouver needs to rush to join them.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Another series of gross exaggerations. It's a two-year freeze on permits; existing construction and proposal submission continues, and we certainly will not be waiting "for decades."

There's 502, 510, 988, 1964, 2080 and 2103 West Broadway, Crossroads, 2538 Birch, 2501 Spruce, the Park Inn & Suites rebuild, 1745 West 8th, 565 West 10th, and dozens of properties sold or waiting to be sold. Once again, everybody's been waiting on the Broadway SkyTrain, and now that it's close to construction, they're all coming out with proposals. Planning an extension downtown takes time, and rightly so; just because the suburban councils have been playing with their jurisdictions like they have Infinity Gauntlets doesn't mean Vancouver needs to rush to join them.

2.5* for broadway to arbutus and then the plan goes to council and who knows how long that will delay it.

Likely 5+ for arbutus to ubc

[trofirhen]

That the central Broadway corridor is going to be developed into sort of an extension of downtown is only natural, given its proximity to the central city.
I only hope that when all is said and done, it is not a hodge-podge of clashing styles, irregular, jagged building profiles, and sterile ugly façades with no street presence.
I'm not asking for Bloor street, Wilshire Boulevard, or anything such, but hope that it will be aesthetically pleasing, with a modicum of charm, not only for work, but visually, too.
For so many years, it has had a utilitarian blandness along most of it, with little of architectural interest, and hope the powers that be can "bust" through that and give it some real appeal.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Another series of gross exaggerations. It's a two-year freeze on permits; existing construction and proposal submission continues, and we certainly will not be waiting "for decades."

There's 502, 510, 988, 1964, 2080 and 2103 West Broadway, Crossroads, 2538 Birch, 2501 Spruce, the Park Inn & Suites rebuild, 1745 West 8th, 565 West 10th, and dozens of properties sold or waiting to be sold. Once again, everybody's been waiting on the Broadway SkyTrain, and now that it's close to construction, they're all coming out with proposals. Planning an extension downtown takes time, and rightly so; just because the suburban councils have been playing with their jurisdictions like they have Infinity Gauntlets doesn't mean Vancouver needs to rush to join them.

Even before the "freeze", there hasn't been much happening along the West Broadway corridor, that is, the financial/office zone from Granville street to Cambie due to all the undesirable policies. Those that you named were small projects. Again, care to name me the many bigger projects completed in the past 20 years, especially the officce/retail projects comparable to those built in the 60s, 70s and 80s? Renovations do not count.

Funny you consider 502, 510, Corssroads etc as "large" projects. Do you know what "large" means? Those look more like little infills. 1964 and 1745 are not even between Granville and Cambie that I mentioned, and they, again are tiny. 2080, 2103, 2538 and 2501 are all out of the financial/commercial zone that I mentioned, and again, pretty small projects. You're even bringing in projects from far away to include in the count. At this rate you might as well bring in the Mt Pleasant projects.

So yeah, let me ask you again, how many large projects between Granville and Cambie had been completed in the last 20 years? I'm talking about projects equivalent to the scale of the Broadway Plaza, 805 West Broadway, Holiday Inn, etc. Ever wondered why these were not built? Answer is because of our retarded City policies of the past 30 years!

[Vin]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

That the central Broadway corridor is going to be developed into sort of an extension of downtown is only natural, given its proximity to the central city.
I only hope that when all is said and done, it is not a hodge-podge of clashing styles, irregular, jagged building profiles, and sterile ugly façades with no street presence.
I'm not asking for Bloor street, Wilshire Boulevard, or anything such, but hope that it will be aesthetically pleasing, with a modicum of charm, not only for work, but visually, too.
For so many years, it has had a utilitarian blandness along most of it, with little of architectural interest, and hope the powers that be can "bust" through that and give it some real appeal.

Geographically it should be: during the 60s to the 80s, there were a number of projects that kickstarted that, but in the recent years there have been too many artificial and City constraints to organically grow downtown into this area. If not, it would've been a very developed part of downtown Vancouver by now. Certain areas still resemble "Davie village" or "Denman Village" with rundown shacks the city calls retail lining the street.

This time round, it is golden opportunity for the City to upzone this area by a lot, especially with the potential of the skytrain line coming in. If they don't, by caving to the Nimbys or those with a "village" mentality, large scale developers will still not flock in to build exciting projects here. It is funny that the City actually wants a mall to be built at their door step. I guess they love the convenience of having a shopping centre beside transit ONLY for themselves. Geez.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Even before the "freeze", there hasn't been much happening along the West Broadway corridor, that is, the financial/office zone from Granville street to Cambie due to all the undesirable policies. Those that you named were small projects. Again, care to name me the many bigger projects completed in the past 20 years, especially the officce/retail projects comparable to those built in the 60s, 70s and 80s? Renovations do not count.

Funny you consider 502, 510, Corssroads etc as "large" projects. Do you know what "large" means? Those look more like little infills. 1964 and 1745 are not even between Granville and Cambie that I mentioned, and they, again are tiny. 2080, 2103, 2538 and 2501 are all out of the financial/commercial zone that I mentioned, and again, pretty small projects. You're even bringing in projects from far away to include in the count. At this rate you might as well bring in the Mt Pleasant projects.

So yeah, let me ask you again, how many large projects between Granville and Cambie had been completed in the last 20 years? I'm talking about projects equivalent to the scale of the Broadway Plaza, 805 West Broadway, Holiday Inn, etc. Ever wondered why these were not built? Answer is because of our retarded City policies of the past 30 years!

Perhaps it's best to define "large" and "along." It's the Broadway CORRIDOR, and it runs from Cambie to Arbutus; if projects within a three-block radius don't count, then neither does three-quarters of Metrotown and Brentwood and Whalley; within a ten-block radius, the suburbs are still suburbs.

Crosstown and the Arbutus Pinnacle are as dense as three of Richmond Centre's condos put together; if either is "small," then so is all of Richmond. Width is as important as length, sometimes moreso.

How many rapid transit lines between Granville and Cambie have been built over the last twenty years? One, and it took ten years for an Oakridge-sized project to get off the ground; Burnaby sat on Metrotown for twenty years after the SkyTrain station opened before they decided to build highrises. Broadway outside of VGH (you'll note that the "large" projects are mostly hotels and medical buildings) didn't kick off until the the last ten to fifteen years, and then talks of a SkyTrain prompted all the developers to wait for a land value increase before building. There's more to density than click-dragging to rezone, switching to Cheetah Speed and magically getting a bunch of towers.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by misher

2.5* for broadway to arbutus and then the plan goes to council and who knows how long that will delay it.

Likely 5+ for arbutus to ubc

The plan gets submitted to City Council by late 2020. Even a year of sitting on it means construction is ahead of the Broadway SkyTrain in 2025 (though I'm not sure why it's a race).

Arbutus to UBC isn't even funded yet, so I'm not sure why a freeze is a problem.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The plan gets submitted to City Council by late 2020. Even a year of sitting on it means construction is ahead of the Broadway SkyTrain in 2025 (though I'm not sure why it's a race).

Arbutus to UBC isn't even funded yet, so I'm not sure why a freeze is a problem.

Generally during a housing crisis you want to build more housing. A freeze down Broadway until 2021 given that things take 5 years to build means things won’t even be ready for the 2025 skytrain completion, much less to help our housing supply.

As for the freeze past Arbutus, that means potentially nothing will get built there to help affordability or housing supply for half a decade or longer. The NIMBYs will be so happy.

It does not take more than two years to plan these things out. A plan should take slightly less than a year tops.


And btw given the Granville Greenway, the greenest city initiative which is calling for high density down transit corridors near jobs, the metro 2040 plan with indicates high density job space and living space along Broadway and in downtown, expect towers down Broadway between Granville and Cambie. Don’t need to speculate there’s been a lot of information the CoV has pumped out to indicate high density down the corridor. I’m surprised there hasn’t been a feeding frenzy of land purchases even with the market being down.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by misher

Generally during a housing crisis you want to build more housing. A freeze down Broadway until 2021 given that things take 5 years to build means things won’t even be ready for the 2025 skytrain completion, much less to help our housing supply.

As for the freeze past Arbutus, that means potentially nothing will get built there to help affordability or housing supply for half a decade or longer. The NIMBYs will be so happy.

It does not take more than two years to plan these things out. A plan should take slightly less than a year tops.


And btw given the Granville Greenway, the greenest city initiative which is calling for high density down transit corridors near jobs, the metro 2040 plan with indicates high density job space and living space along Broadway and in downtown, expect towers down Broadway between Granville and Cambie. Don’t need to speculate there’s been a lot of information the CoV has pumped out to indicate high density down the corridor. I’m surprised there hasn’t been a feeding frenzy of land purchases even with the market being down.

2020. '21 is an imaginary worst case scenario. Personally, I want the development starting after or at least in tandem with the subway - Broadway's going to be a nightmare for all users already, it doesn't need a dozen tower construction sites adding to it.
What you're asking for sounds awfully like an uncontrolled boom... which is usually followed by a bust (market settling, political pushback, etc), and then the cycle repeats again. NIMBYs or no NIMBYs, steady growth works better.

Since we don't even know where past Arbutus the SkyTrain or stations will go, taking a quick break to get everything lined up is entirely understandable. I believe that Jericho's its own thing and proceeding regardless.

Such is the price of Western democracy. Human civilization only gets a choice between two years of consultation or a complete rush job that everybody ends up regretting.

Absolutely - the scramble's been well-documented, hence the freeze. Otherwise the subway will end up running into the $3-4 billion range. Rest assured, Density is Coming.

[Migrant_Coconut]

- double post, please remove -

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

2020. '21 is an imaginary worst case scenario. Personally, I want the development starting after or at least in tandem with the subway - Broadway's going to be a nightmare for all users already, it doesn't need a dozen tower construction sites adding to it.
What you're asking for sounds awfully like an uncontrolled boom... which is usually followed by a bust (market settling, political pushback, etc), and then the cycle repeats again. NIMBYs or no NIMBYs, steady growth works better.

Since we don't even know where past Arbutus the SkyTrain or stations will go, taking a quick break to get everything lined up is entirely understandable. I believe that Jericho's its own thing and proceeding regardless.

Such is the price of Western democracy. Human civilization only gets a choice between two years of consultation or a complete rush job that everybody ends up regretting.

Absolutely - the scramble's been well-documented, hence the freeze. Otherwise the subway will end up running into the $3-4 billion range. Rest assured, Density is Coming.

The freeze does literally nothing to stop sales. And the freeze is happening years after sales already finished. Honestly the justification that its meant to stop speculation/sales seems completely empty.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Another series of gross exaggerations. It's a two-year freeze on permits; existing construction and proposal submission continues, and we certainly will not be waiting "for decades."

There's 502, 510, 988, 1964, 2080 and 2103 West Broadway, Crossroads, 2538 Birch, 2501 Spruce, the Park Inn & Suites rebuild, 1745 West 8th, 565 West 10th, and dozens of properties sold or waiting to be sold. Once again, everybody's been waiting on the Broadway SkyTrain, and now that it's close to construction, they're all coming out with proposals. Planning an extension downtown takes time, and rightly so; just because the suburban councils have been playing with their jurisdictions like they have Infinity Gauntlets doesn't mean Vancouver needs to rush to join them.

Vancouver doesn't play with Infinity Gauntlets. It plays with a microscope.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Perhaps it's best to define "large" and "along." It's the Broadway CORRIDOR, and it runs from Cambie to Arbutus; if projects within a three-block radius don't count, then neither does three-quarters of Metrotown and Brentwood and Whalley; within a ten-block radius, the suburbs are still suburbs.

Crosstown and the Arbutus Pinnacle are as dense as three of Richmond Centre's condos put together; if either is "small," then so is all of Richmond. Width is as important as length, sometimes moreso.

How many rapid transit lines between Granville and Cambie have been built over the last twenty years? One, and it took ten years for an Oakridge-sized project to get off the ground; Burnaby sat on Metrotown for twenty years after the SkyTrain station opened before they decided to build highrises. Broadway outside of VGH (you'll note that the "large" projects are mostly hotels and medical buildings) didn't kick off until the the last ten to fifteen years, and then talks of a SkyTrain prompted all the developers to wait for a land value increase before building. There's more to density than click-dragging to rezone, switching to Cheetah Speed and magically getting a bunch of towers.

Oakridge was typical of how Vancouver does things- slow.
Metrotown still had some towers going up in the 90s. Things were slow starting up development around the town centres in the 90s in general, since the entire push towards the inner cities hadn't begun yet. N. America was still auto-dominated in general, and Skytrain (and the transit system) hadn't expanded to the point where it could benefit from the network effect it does now.

For comparison to make my point, this is Yaletown in the 90s:



Broadway should and will go faster. The wish to do so is understandable.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

2020. '21 is an imaginary worst case scenario. Personally, I want the development starting after or at least in tandem with the subway - Broadway's going to be a nightmare for all users already, it doesn't need a dozen tower construction sites adding to it.
What you're asking for sounds awfully like an uncontrolled boom... which is usually followed by a bust (market settling, political pushback, etc), and then the cycle repeats again. NIMBYs or no NIMBYs, steady growth works better.

Since we don't even know where past Arbutus the SkyTrain or stations will go, taking a quick break to get everything lined up is entirely understandable. I believe that Jericho's its own thing and proceeding regardless.

Such is the price of Western democracy. Human civilization only gets a choice between two years of consultation or a complete rush job that everybody ends up regretting.

Absolutely - the scramble's been well-documented, hence the freeze. Otherwise the subway will end up running into the $3-4 billion range. Rest assured, Density is Coming.

Yeah, the Cambie Corridor was a free-for-all, and it didn't exactly result in the most ambitious plan either. Oakridge is still an empty shell, and is really the smallest T. Centre in size.

If people know the density they're going to be getting beforehand, they'll hate it, but at least people will know what they're going to get, and not have reactionary panics/frenzy over 40-story towers on King Edwards.

Yeah, good point about the RE. Though, I'm pretty sure most of the sites needed have already been purchased beforehand. The earlier you can get the land, the better.

Originally Posted by misher

The freeze does literally nothing to stop sales. And the freeze is happening years after sales already finished. Honestly the justification that its meant to stop speculation/sales seems completely empty.

They're not permitting rezonings or permits until the plan is complete, which is likely pretty much the most the city can do to limit speculation.

[misher]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Vancouver doesn't play with Infinity Gauntlets. It plays with a microscope.


Oakridge was typical of how Vancouver does things- slow.
Metrotown still had some towers going up in the 90s. Things were slow starting up development around the town centres in the 90s in general, since the entire push towards the inner cities hadn't begun yet. N. America was still auto-dominated in general, and Skytrain (and the transit system) hadn't expanded to the point where it could benefit from the network effect it does now.

For comparison to make my point, this is Yaletown in the 90s:



Broadway should and will go faster. The wish to do so is understandable.


Yeah, the Cambie Corridor was a free-for-all, and it didn't exactly result in the most ambitious plan either. Oakridge is still an empty shell, and is really the smallest T. Centre in size.

If people know the density they're going to be getting beforehand, they'll hate it, but at least people will know what they're going to get, and not have reactionary panics/frenzy over 40-story towers on King Edwards.

Yeah, good point about the RE. Though, I'm pretty sure most of the sites needed have already been purchased beforehand. The earlier you can get the land, the better.


They're not permitting rezonings or permits until the plan is complete, which is likely pretty much the most the city can do to limit speculation.

Isn’t speculation buying the property early because you believe that the city will later zone it for more? And aren’t the current developments developing under the old rules? If anything this seems to cater to speculators since this only blocks the people who aren’t speculating.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Oakridge was typical of how Vancouver does things- slow.
Metrotown still had some towers going up in the 90s. Things were slow starting up development around the town centres in the 90s in general, since the entire push towards the inner cities hadn't begun yet. N. America was still auto-dominated in general, and Skytrain (and the transit system) hadn't expanded to the point where it could benefit from the network effect it does now.

For comparison to make my point, this is Yaletown in the 90s:

Broadway should and will go faster. The wish to do so is understandable.

That was Metro Vancouver in general; Broadway has the same 90s towers. Yaletown et al seem to have triggered a bust, because most of what we got after that was opportunistic piece-by-piece spot rezonings.

Originally Posted by fredinno

Yeah, the Cambie Corridor was a free-for-all, and it didn't exactly result in the most ambitious plan either. Oakridge is still an empty shell, and is really the smallest T. Centre in size.

If people know the density they're going to be getting beforehand, they'll hate it, but at least people will know what they're going to get, and not have reactionary panics/frenzy over 40-story towers on King Edwards.

Oddly enough, the new Cambie plan is denser than what the market's been doing with it. Urban planning and the private sector don't mix too well.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by misher

The freeze does literally nothing to stop sales. And the freeze is happening years after sales already finished. Honestly the justification that its meant to stop speculation/sales seems completely empty.

Originally Posted by misher

Isn’t speculation buying the property early because you believe that the city will later zone it for more? And aren’t the current developments developing under the old rules? If anything this seems to cater to speculators since this only blocks the people who aren’t speculating.

It helps, right? There's bound to be much less incentive to buy/resell an already-expensive property if you're worried that the most you're allowed is ten storeys and 2.0 FSR (probably not happening, but still).

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It helps, right? There's bound to be much less incentive to buy/resell an already-expensive property if you're worried that the most you're allowed is ten storeys and 2.0 FSR (probably not happening, but still).

So isn't that still speculation? How does stopping development under the old rules stop speculation?