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Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 9:48 AM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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St. Louis gets its first transatlantic flight to continental Europe in nearly 20 year

It's technically a city discussion, though not exactly about urban form. But considering Saint Louis hasn't had a Trans-Atlantic flight since 2003(!), and the city has been digging out of a massive hole caused by the collapse of TransWorld Airlines, this is fantastic news for the city's future, and something that's definitely a consideration for upper-middle class remote workers:

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St. Louis-area residents are about to have a convenient new way to get to Europe.

Lufthansa on Tuesday announced it will begin flying between Frankfurt (FRA) and the Gateway City’s Lambert International Airport (STL) in June. In addition, Germany’s Star Alliance carrier will also begin service between Munich (MUC) and San Diego (SAN) on March 27.

Lufthansa will operate the Airbus A330 to St. Louis three days a week, on Sundays, Wednesdays and Fridays. In a press release touting the new Munich flight, the San Diego Airport Authority said Lufthansa will operate the A350-900 on Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays initially, with frequencies increasing to include Tuesday and Saturday flights beginning in May.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/luftha...nstop-flights/

Saint Louis becomes the 33rd metro in USA to have year-round non-stop service to Europe.

The new list is:
  1. Atlanta
  2. Austin
  3. Baltimore
  4. Boston
  5. Cape Coral
  6. Charlotte
  7. Chicago
  8. Cincinnati
  9. Dallas
  10. Denver
  11. Detroit
  12. Houston
  13. Las Vegas
  14. Los Angeles
  15. Miami
  16. Minneapolis
  17. Nashville
  18. New Orleans
  19. New York
  20. Orlando
  21. Philadelphia
  22. Phoenix
  23. Pittsburgh
  24. Portland
  25. Raleigh
  26. Saint Louis
  27. Salt Lake City
  28. San Diego
  29. San Francisco
  30. San Jose
  31. San Juan
  32. Seattle
  33. Tampa
  34. Washington

Top 10 metro areas missing Trans-Atlantic service:
  1. Riverside - 4,599,839 (they use Los Angeles International)
  2. San Antonio - 2,558,143
  3. Sacramento - 2,397,382
  4. Kansas City - 2,192,035
  5. Columbus - 2,138,926
  6. Indianapolis - 2,111,040
  7. Cleveland - 2,088,251
  8. Virginia Beach - 1,799,674
  9. Providence - 1,676,579 (they use Boston Logan International)
  10. Jacksonville - 1,605,848

^^ Saint Louis was #2 on the list before today.

Last edited by Manitopiaaa; Dec 15, 2021 at 7:23 PM.
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  #2  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 1:24 PM
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That's a lot of metro areas!

In Brazil, São Paulo GRU handles over 70% of international traffic, it's the Brazilian gateway, which used to be Rio de Janeiro GIG up to the early 1990's.

Aside those, metro areas with flights to Europe are: Porto Alegre, Campinas, Belo Horizonte, Brasília, Salvador, Recife, Fortaleza and Belém.

10 overall.
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  #3  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 4:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
Top 10 metro areas missing Trans-Atlantic service:
  1. Riverside - 4,599,839 (they use Los Angeles International)
  2. San Antonio - 2,558,143
  3. Sacramento - 2,397,382
  4. Kansas City - 2,192,035
  5. Columbus - 2,138,926
  6. Indianapolis - 2,111,040
  7. Cleveland - 2,088,251
  8. Virginia Beach - 1,799,674
  9. Providence - 1,676,579 (they use Boston Logan International)
  10. Jacksonville - 1,605,848

^^ Saint Louis was #2 on the list before today.
and as you pointed out, riverside just uses LAX, so st. louis was really the largest independent US market without a non-stop to europe.

looking at the others on the list, san antonio and sacramento might be too close to austin and SF, respectively, to get their own euro flight any time soon.

after those two are the next tier down midwest metros that are all roughly the same size. cincy is in that same size range and already has a euro flight, so perhaps one of them might be next?
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  #4  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 7:05 PM
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Looking closer, actually Cleveland is the biggest unattended market. De facto, it's an almost 3 million people metro area and no links to Europe. Even in Brazil there are smaller metro areas with them.
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  #5  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 7:21 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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^Ohio is also the largest state without a major airline hub. Because Cincinnati's airport is actually in Kentucky, Ohio is also technically the largest state in the country with no direct flights to Europe or Asia.

Ohio seems like a great candidate for a high speed rail network connecting its major metros. They should focus on linking the state's major airports by rail, IMO.
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  #6  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 7:22 PM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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Also, I lied. Apparently Cape Coral (760,822 people!) somehow managed to snag non-stop flights to Frankfurt starting in March on Eurowings. Are there really Germans vacationing in Southwest Florida?

So Saint Louis is #34. I've edited the list above.
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  #7  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 7:23 PM
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While the IE doesn't have direct flights to Europe, it does have direct flights to Asia and Central America from the Ontario airport. I'm currently seeing Taipei and San Salvador as destinations, but I'm pretty sure they used to also have a flight to Beijing, too.

But LAX definitely serves the international needs for most of the IE.
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  #8  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 7:31 PM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
Looking closer, actually Cleveland is the biggest unattended market. De facto, it's an almost 3 million people metro area and no links to Europe. Even in Brazil there are smaller metro areas with them.
A lot of the Midwest got wrecked by airline consolidation in the 1980s and 1990s, including Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Saint Louis.

Cleveland actually had Continental Airlines flights to London from 1999 to 2010. But that was destroyed due to the Great Recession. And then when demand picked back up, Continental had folded into United and the Cleveland hub was dissolved.

They had flights to Paris in 2009 to 2010 (again a Continental experiment ended by merger/recession).

They even had Icelandair AND Wow Air flights to Reykjavik from 2018-2019. But both overexpanded in the U.S. (I remember 2018 was the "year of Iceland" since $99 fares were all over the news) and had to quickly pull back.

I agree that Cleveland not having a flight to Europe makes no sense. It's not just the metro area, but the entire CSA (3.6 million) that flies out of Cleveland. And now that Youngstown Airport is empty, that's another 650,000 people that split between Cleveland and Pittsburgh airports (it's 1hr from each).

A 4 million person market is definitely enough to accommodate at least a London flight.
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  #9  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 7:47 PM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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U.S. METROS WITH FLIGHTS TO ASIA

Here is the same list but for Asian cities. These are the American cities with non-stop direct flights to Asia:
  1. Atlanta
  2. Boston
  3. Chicago
  4. Dallas
  5. Dededo (aka Guam)
  6. Denver
  7. Detroit
  8. Hilo
  9. Honolulu
  10. Houston
  11. Las Vegas
  12. Los Angeles
  13. Minneapolis
  14. New York
  15. Portland
  16. Riverside
  17. Saipan
  18. San Diego
  19. San Francisco
  20. San Jose
  21. Seattle
  22. Washington

Pretty barren, and quite a few head-scratching omissions, like Miami, Philadelphia, and Phoenix.

Newark has direct flights to Beijing, Delhi, Hong Kong, Istanbul, Mumbai, Shanghai, Singapore, Tel Aviv, Tokyo, so I assume Philadelphians well utilize that airport (1.5 hour drive away). But Miami and Phoenix don't make much sense, the former given its tourism draw and Phoenix due to the large Asian populations in the West (though I suppose Phoenix isn't as Asian as California).
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  #10  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 7:53 PM
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Quote:
Top 10 metro areas missing Trans-Atlantic service:
  1. Riverside - 4,599,839 (they use Los Angeles International)
  2. San Antonio - 2,558,143
  3. Sacramento - 2,397,382
  4. Kansas City - 2,192,035
  5. Columbus - 2,138,926
  6. Indianapolis - 2,111,040
  7. Cleveland - 2,088,251
  8. Virginia Beach - 1,799,674
  9. Providence - 1,676,579 (they use Boston Logan International)
  10. Jacksonville - 1,605,848

^^ Saint Louis was #2 on the list before today.
Interesting list - It's a little silly to look at Transatlantic fights from a West Coast city like Riverside or Sacramento. Anyhoo, I wouldn't think the demand would be there for St. Louis to Frankfurt. Really odd timing too as Transatlantic flights are half empty and COVID restrictions are coming back in to place.
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  #11  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 7:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
U.S. METROS WITH FLIGHTS TO ASIA

Here is the same list but for Asian cities. These are the American cities with non-stop direct flights to Asia:
  1. Atlanta
  2. Boston
  3. Chicago
  4. Dallas
  5. Denver
  6. Detroit
  7. Hilo
  8. Honolulu
  9. Houston
  10. Las Vegas
  11. Los Angeles
  12. Minneapolis
  13. New York
  14. Portland
  15. Riverside
  16. San Diego
  17. San Francisco
  18. San Jose
  19. Seattle
  20. Washington

Pretty barren, and quite a few head-scratching omissions, like Miami, Philadelphia, and Phoenix.

Newark has direct flights to Beijing, Delhi, Hong Kong, Istanbul, Mumbai, Shanghai, Singapore, Tel Aviv, Tokyo, so I assume Philadelphians well utilize that airport (1.5 hour drive away). But Miami and Phoenix don't make much sense, the former given its tourism draw and Phoenix due to the large Asian populations in the West (though I suppose Phoenix isn't as Asian as California).
I can see Miami getting one soon. No shortage of flights to central and South America, but you would think there would be enough demand to Tokyo or Tel Aviv at least. Newark really sucks for international travel, with high airport fees to boot.
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  #12  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 8:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
U.S. METROS WITH FLIGHTS TO ASIA

Here is the same list but for Asian cities. These are the American cities with non-stop direct flights to Asia.

Pretty barren, and quite a few head-scratching omissions, like Miami, Philadelphia, and Phoenix.

Newark has direct flights to Beijing, Delhi, Hong Kong, Istanbul, Mumbai, Shanghai, Singapore, Tel Aviv, Tokyo, so I assume Philadelphians well utilize that airport (1.5 hour drive away). But Miami and Phoenix don't make much sense, the former given its tourism draw and Phoenix due to the large Asian populations in the West (though I suppose Phoenix isn't as Asian as California).
Distance may be a factor for Miami. Atlanta to Tokyo is already over 14 hours, and a Miami to Tokyo flight would pass pretty much due over Atlanta, but be pushing the 16 hour mark. And that's for Tokyo, the closest major Asian city to the East Coast (due to the polar route).
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  #13  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 8:02 PM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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Also, I never realized just how linked Guam/Northern Mariana Islands were to Asian cities. They've both become major Asian tourist hubs, since Asians go there to experience "American culture."

Guam:
  1. Busan
  2. Cheongju
  3. Daegu
  4. Fukuoka
  5. Gwangju
  6. Manila
  7. Nagoya
  8. Osaka
  9. Seoul
  10. Taipei
  11. Tokyo

Northern Mariana Islands
  1. Beijing
  2. Busan
  3. Hangzhou
  4. Hong Kong
  5. Seoul

Apparently, the Japanese prefer Guam to the Marianas, which means Chinese prefer the Marianas to Guam

...and Honolulu:
  1. Fukuoka
  2. Kuala Lumpur
  3. Manila
  4. Nagoya
  5. Osaka
  6. Sapporo
  7. Seoul
  8. Taipei
  9. Tokyo

Honolulu-Tokyo is so lucrative, it's served by 5 airlines: All Nippon (from both Haneda and Narita), Delta (Haneda), Hawaiian (both Haneda/Narita), Japan Airlines (both Haneda/Narita), Zipair (Narita). That's the same number of airlines that compete in the Heathrow-Kennedy route market. Crazy!
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  #14  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
A lot of the Midwest got wrecked by airline consolidation in the 1980s and 1990s, including Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Saint Louis.

Cleveland actually had Continental Airlines flights to London from 1999 to 2010. But that was destroyed due to the Great Recession. And then when demand picked back up, Continental had folded into United and the Cleveland hub was dissolved.

They had flights to Paris in 2009 to 2010 (again a Continental experiment ended by merger/recession).

They even had Icelandair AND Wow Air flights to Reykjavik from 2018-2019. But both overexpanded in the U.S. (I remember 2018 was the "year of Iceland" since $99 fares were all over the news) and had to quickly pull back.

I agree that Cleveland not having a flight to Europe makes no sense. It's not just the metro area, but the entire CSA (3.6 million) that flies out of Cleveland. And now that Youngstown Airport is empty, that's another 650,000 people that split between Cleveland and Pittsburgh airports (it's 1hr from each).

A 4 million person market is definitely enough to accommodate at least a London flight.
They surely have a demand for that. Brazilian international traffic is heavily centered in São Paulo and the other smaller capitals usually pick Lisbon as their European destination (Porto Alegre, Campinas, Belo Horizonte and the Northeast ones).

Cleveland is a massive market on its own and London is the busiest airport system in the world, with connections to any place.
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Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 8:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
Cleveland is a massive market on its own and London is the busiest airport system in the world, with connections to any place.
I checked some of those smaller U.S. non-hub markets with non-stops to Europe on the list, and it appears that many of them are served by British Airways (examples: Nashville and Cincinnati). That makes sense because U.S. airlines have incentive to funnel international traffic through their major hubs. OTOH, British Airways doesn't serve some lower tier 1 (or high tier 2) cities with major hubs like Detroit and Minneapolis. So maybe Lufthansa is starting to follow this strategy. If that's the case then I wouldn't be surprised to see Lufthansa eventually drop its Frankfurt-Detroit route.
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Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 8:56 PM
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I'm curious, which US cities have direct flights to sub-Saharan Africa? To the Middle East?
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Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 9:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
I'm curious, which US cities have direct flights to sub-Saharan Africa? To the Middle East?
I know that NYC, DC, and Atlanta have non-stops to sub-Saharan Africa. A lot of cities have non-stop flights to the Middle East. Probably almost all of the airports with a major hub has a route to the Middle East.
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  #18  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
I'm curious, which US cities have direct flights to sub-Saharan Africa? To the Middle East?
San Francisco has flights to Istanbul,Tel Aviv, Doha, and Dubai.

Los Angeles has flights to Istanbul,Tel Aviv, Doha, Jeddah, Riyadh, and Dubai.

Neither have flights to sub-Saharan Africa. That's it for CA cities.

Last edited by tech12; Dec 15, 2021 at 11:11 PM.
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  #19  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 11:55 PM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
I'm curious, which US cities have direct flights to sub-Saharan Africa? To the Middle East?
D.C. has a good amount:
  1. Abu Dhabi - Etihad
  2. Accra - United
  3. Addis ​Ababa - Ethiopian Airlines
  4. Amman - United
  5. Cairo - Egyptair
  6. Doha - Qatar Airways
  7. Dubai - Emirates
  8. Istanbul - Turkish Airlines
  9. Jeddah - Saudia
  10. Lagos - United
  11. Riyadh - Saudia
  12. Sal - Cabo Verde Airlines
  13. Tel Aviv - El Al
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  #20  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2021, 12:06 AM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
I'm curious, which US cities have direct flights to sub-Saharan Africa? To the Middle East?
Middle East
  1. Atlanta
  2. Boston
  3. Chicago
  4. Dallas
  5. Detroit
  6. Houston
  7. Las Vegas
  8. Los Angeles
  9. Miami
  10. New York
  11. Orlando
  12. Philadelphia
  13. San Francisco
  14. Seattle
  15. Washington

Sub-Saharan Africa
  1. Atlanta
  2. Chicago
  3. New York
  4. Washington
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