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  #41  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2021, 2:57 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by DanielG425 View Post
Just because you do not have the capacity to look at the history of OUR country in an objective matter
Take a look at the growth of U.S. GDP, the explosion of the S&P since the Civil Rights legislation passed, etc. Yes, the U.S. was the wealthiest country in the world by the 1960s, but that level is almost incidental as compared to how wealthy it is now.

In plain English: almost all of the wealth that Americans enjoy has been created very recently. The economic growth of the United States just since 2000 is astounding. Thousands of millionaires are minted every day.

Recent immigrants from India and East Asia are absolutely smoking black Americans in economic performance. We hear NPR, etc., whine endlessly about how black Americans are cut out of this thing and that thing. Meanwhile, tons of people who grew up on the opposite side of the planet have no trouble moving here, raising their families, and making a ton of money. Professional jobs. Stocks. Real estate. Winning elected office. Joining country clubs.
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  #42  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2021, 2:58 PM
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This discussion here illustrates how people people view society as a whole, and how their worldview shapes their proposed solutions to cure society's ills. IMO, the majority of this viewpoint is shaped by an individual's family background & culture, the success they've had in life, and how they reached this success. It's an incredibly myopic way to view society, but it is often the best that humans can do with our mental capacity under our current circumstances. We are, by large, a fairly unimaginative people.
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  #43  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2021, 7:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Well I've made hundreds of thousands of dollars doing just that so no, I didn't miss it.
So why are you ignoring that fact if you are in the same world that we both know?
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  #44  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2021, 12:24 AM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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Recent immigrants from India and East Asia are absolutely smoking black Americans in economic performance. We hear NPR, etc., whine endlessly about how black Americans are cut out of this thing and that thing. Meanwhile, tons of people who grew up on the opposite side of the planet have no trouble moving here, raising their families, and making a ton of money. Professional jobs. Stocks. Real estate. Winning elected office. Joining country clubs.
What's your point?

Immigration selects for people who at a minimum tend to have family support. A lot of legal immigration is now merit-based. It's relatively well-studied that your parent's education level affects what their children's will be. It's really not surprising that immigrants from Asia and West Africa tend to exhibit a lot of success. Refugees, immigrants who got visas because they had a family member already in the US, and those whose parents brought them when crossing the border illegally and then sought legal status afterwards, all seem to be more like the general population. Some are well off and some are not. Some are "hard workers" and others are in jail, either way their lives kind of suck.

All the down and out Chinese and Indians are still in China and India, I'm sure.

I guess I am not supposed to have an opinion on this subject since I am white. But I always got the sense that black people and hispanics get nailed with double standards. They have be perfect and follow all these petty rules or they are grouped into the "trash" category and that's somehow okay because other races aren't expected to meet those standards. Yet. According to the model minority hypothesis, I guess working class whites are on the firing line next.

The problem I have with equality as a standalone concept is that it can mean equally good or equally bad. Conservatives should find this familiar, because it's part of their argument against leftist economic arguments usually, right? The whole idea the free market would raise the floor even if there's inequality and all that. Also there's the concept of negative and positive liberties to consider and what goes in the scope of equality. So conservatives who are proponents of the model majority narrative and are fond of saying that they believe in equality of opportunity not outcome are really preferring is a situation where everyone is equal only in the sense that the government doesn't allow overt discrimination (negative liberty) while significant amounts of inequity in real-world factors that aid or hinder personal success are deliberately ignored.

There's also the fact that people of all races and backgrounds tend to vary in natural intelligence, self-control, social skills, are have better or worse mental health, etc. Depending on one's circumstances these challenges can be met with support and second chances and learning through failure, while for others they are disqualifying for leading a fulfilling life. Like there are plenty of opportunities for black students in education, but only if they are one of the smart kids with perfect behavior who dress and talk a certain way. The charter schools in rough neighborhoods skim them off. Meanwhile if you are white you get more slack. Of course then you introduce asians to the mix, I suppose because they are better than whites then nobody should get slack and it should all be survival of the fittest now? How miserable is that though? If most people are merely average we shouldn't declare war on them.

Finally if you just remove race from the equation completely it becomes apparent that what conservatives seem to value the most about meritocracy is the hierarchy part and not the utility of the best person for the job. So all of this is a side show.

Last edited by llamaorama; Nov 25, 2021 at 12:50 AM.
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  #45  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2021, 4:57 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
What's your point?
My point is that the article is clickbait. People have shifted the conversation rather than respond to my arguments.

Maybe there was some neighborhood where the black residents owned their homes and were screwed by an eminent domain process that differed from nearby white residents. If so, let's hear it.

Maybe there was some interstate highway with a checkpoint that blocked black drivers from using the new roadway. If so, let's hear it.

I just remembered that when I worked offshore out of Mobile, AL's harbor, I often rode with area (black) crew members during crew changes. Some of these drives were quite long (to Louisiana, to the Florida Panhandle, or up the Mississippi River toward Tennessee). At some point I realized that a number of the guys couldn't read, which meant they couldn't read the green overhead directional signs. They navigated entirely by landmarks and memory. This meant they couldn't really drive anywhere new because they couldn't read the signs.

So...should there be people at exit ramps to help direct illiterate blacks to destinations? Is the lack of such guides all part of some racist plot?
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  #46  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2021, 1:23 AM
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Santa Monica’s message to people evicted long ago for the 10 Freeway: Come home


Nichelle Monroe stands near where her family once owned property before it was taken to build Interstate 10 in Santa Monica.(Jason Armond / Los Angeles Times)

Liam Dillon
Los Angeles Times
December 26, 2021

Nichelle Monroe’s ties to Santa Monica run deep.

Her great-uncle is said to have been the first Black baby born there more than a century ago. Apartments and other buildings in the beachfront city were designed by her architect grandfather, Vernon Brunson.

Monroe remembers when her grandparents would drive her by the intersection of 20th Street and Michigan Avenue and point up an alleyway to where their duplex used to be.

In that spot today looms the 10 Freeway, which cut through Santa Monica’s Pico neighborhood as it was built to stretch to the Pacific. Monroe’s grandparents, along with about 600 other predominately Black families, lost their homes.

More than half a century later, Santa Monica is offering a chance for some of them to come back. Starting in January, the city will offer affordable housing to those forced out by freeway construction and those removed in the late 1950s when the city bulldozed another Black area, Belmar Triangle, to build the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium. Children and grandchildren of those who lost their homes also are eligible.

Santa Monica’s act of civic penance is an attempt to recognize the harm done to largely Black communities during the post-World War II era of freeway building and urban renewal.

The program is part of a nationwide movement to compensate residents for racist harms related to housing and property. The efforts gained momentum after the murder of George Floyd in spring 2020.

In September, California Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a law that authorized the return of shorefront land known as Bruce’s Beach to the descendants of a Black couple who were run out of Manhattan Beach nearly a century ago.

Earlier this year, Evanston, Ill., became the nation’s first city to create an explicit reparations program, providing Black residents who faced housing discrimination through much of the 20th century or their descendants money for down payments or home repairs.

For Monroe, the building of the freeway left a family wound that has never fully healed.

“If you had something and you lost it due to eminent domain, due to racism, you’re thinking about it and it affects your every move thereafter,” said Monroe, who lives in a one-bedroom duplex in Alhambra. “It’s almost like PTSD. It affects how you think of yourself in society, what you believe is possible in that society.”

Nationwide, more than 1 million people lost their homes in just the first two decades of interstate construction alone. Early on, highway planners targeted many Black neighborhoods for destruction, and displaced families often received little compensation.


Residents of Santa Monica’s Pico neighborhood watch construction of the 10 Freeway in 1964. About 600 families in the predominantly Black community lost their homes when the freeway was built.(Santa Monica History Museum)

The legacy of those decisions remains in tourist-friendly Santa Monica. Fewer Black people live in the city today than in 1960, before the freeway was built. Those pushed out say people they meet often are surprised to hear Santa Monica used to have a robust Black community.

The city program initially will be open to 100 displaced families or their descendants who earn limited incomes, giving them priority access to apartments with below-market rents. But city leaders hope their efforts will grow into a national model to address past racist policies.

“We will be able to right a historic wrong,” said Santa Monica City Councilwoman Kristin McCowan. “Eventually, we’re going to do that for more and more people. And if other communities start to do their share, you can see a real tidal wave potentially across the country.”

Santa Monica officials say they realize the program cannot make up for what was taken.

Renters got nothing when they were forced out; only their landlords did. Homeowners lost the ability to earn the generational wealth from owning property near the Southern California coastline.

Before the 10 Freeway, many children in the Pico neighborhood walked to school together, gathering their friends along the way. At night, their parents would grab hamburgers at a drive-in restaurant, playing Ella Fitzgerald and Johnny Otis on the jukebox. Afterward, they danced at the Marimba nightclub on Olympic Boulevard.

Mostly blue-collar Mexican American and Black families lived as neighbors in cottages, Spanish-style bungalows and apartment complexes. Many Black residents came to Pico from the Deep South to escape brutal segregation.

“That was our little community,” said Evelyn Whitaker, who was in high school when the freeway took both her mother’s and grandmother’s homes. “It was only grand because we made it grand. With our friends and our family and the people we loved.”

As the 10 Freeway’s path to the sea was being developed, Santa Monica civic boosters pushed for their city to be its terminus, believing publicity from the name “the Santa Monica Freeway” would be a boon.

But business interests wanted to protect commercial and industrial land nearby, so planners sliced through Pico — a decision they justified because property values were lower there, a fact fueled by government-backed mortgage redlining policies that discouraged investment in areas with large poor or nonwhite populations.

“It’s not like they say, ‘We’re chasing out all the Black people. We’re chasing out all the low-income people,’” said Alison Rose Jefferson, a scholar in residence at the Getty Conservation Institute who has written a history of the Black experience in Santa Monica. “But it tells you they’re not valuing these people.”

Some Pico residents stood in front of bulldozers. The NAACP pleaded for an alternative that didn’t displace so many Black families.

A survey of homeowners along the freeway route at the time found that the average family had lived on its property for more than 17 years. And because the families received little for their homes, it was hard to buy elsewhere in Santa Monica.

Fair housing activists went door to door in 1966 polling apartment managers in white neighborhoods to see whether they would rent to Black residents. Only one out of 27 said he would. When a Black family attempted to integrate a white community a few years earlier, two Molotov cocktails were thrown onto their front porch.

Whitaker’s mother ended up buying a home in South Los Angeles, joining many Black families there.

“We moved where my mother’s money could take her,” Whitaker said.

Whitaker owns a home in Baldwin Hills and won’t return to Santa Monica under the new housing program. But she often thinks about how much of a difference owning land in the affluent city would have meant for her family.

“I do think about my mother’s property there, what it could have been worth at this time and all the opportunities that are there in Santa Monica,” Whitaker said. “The opportunities were not there for Black people. What hurts me the most is when I think about if everyone started with an even playing field, how wonderful that would be.”

Santa Monica’s program is similar to one in Portland, Ore., that began six years ago and offers preference in the city’s affordable housing programs to families and descendants forced from a historically Black neighborhood by the construction of Interstate 5 and urban redevelopment.

Through redlining, exclusionary zoning, racially restrictive covenants and displacement caused by freeways and redevelopment, nearly every urban area in the country prevented Black families from accessing the same wealth and opportunity available to white residents and their children, said Sheryll Cashin, a law professor at Georgetown University and author of “White Space, Black ‘Hood: Opportunity Hoarding and Segregation in the Age of Inequality.”

In light of this history, Santa Monica’s effort makes sense, she said.

“It’s an example of more of what needs to happen where a city looks honestly at its past to understand that a lot of the dramatic inequality in the present overlays with race,” Cashin said.

Discussions about the housing program began in 2019 when Santa Monica officials were deciding how to commemorate the city’s historic Black communities during the construction of an athletic field in what was once Belmar Triangle. A walking path around the field now features photos of Santa Monica’s early Black families and signs describe how the freeway and urban renewal projects destroyed neighborhoods.

Ultimately, the City Council decided to give families that were forced out preferential treatment on its waitlist for low-income apartments.

To qualify, residents must prove that they or their families were displaced and meet income requirements, generally earning no more than $66,250 for a single person or $94,600 for a family of four. They would get apartments with rents now restricted at $1,891 a month for a one-bedroom through $2,896 for a four-bedroom — amounts far less than what you could find on the open market.

But in a sign of how hard affordable housing is to come by, the current waitlist extends to more than 6,000 families. Low-income households living in Santa Monica that are evicted when their rent-controlled apartments are demolished or when other actions cause immediate displacement will have the first option to receive housing.

Nevertheless, city officials are confident that the program will provide opportunities for dozens of families displaced by the construction of the 10 Freeway or the Civic Auditorium to find homes.

Monroe could be one of them.

When the freeway took her grandparents’ duplex, they moved to another property they owned in Santa Monica.

On that land, Monroe’s grandfather designed a two-story house with five apartments in the back. For years, the family centered its life there, and it remained Monroe’s base for holidays and summers even after she and her parents moved to Mississippi when she was 10.

Monroe returned to attend Santa Monica College, where she now works, and lived in one of her grandparents’ apartments. But 15 years ago, after her grandparents’ death, a relative sold the property and Monroe’s physical link to Santa Monica was severed, even if the emotional connection never faded.

“Everywhere that I’ve been,” Monroe said, “no place compares to my beloved Santa Monica.”

Monroe said she has mixed feelings about the new housing program and the city’s other recent efforts to recognize Black history. Monroe believes the city should be making it easier for her family to actually buy a home in the community.

She’s proud photos of her grandparents and great-grandparents are featured in the new Belmar Triangle walking path.

“But what else is there?” Monroe said. “The theft is still there. The generational wealth is still gone."
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  #47  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2021, 3:04 PM
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Klippenstein Klippenstein is offline
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
My point is that the article is clickbait. People have shifted the conversation rather than respond to my arguments.

Maybe there was some neighborhood where the black residents owned their homes and were screwed by an eminent domain process that differed from nearby white residents. If so, let's hear it.

Maybe there was some interstate highway with a checkpoint that blocked black drivers from using the new roadway. If so, let's hear it.

I just remembered that when I worked offshore out of Mobile, AL's harbor, I often rode with area (black) crew members during crew changes. Some of these drives were quite long (to Louisiana, to the Florida Panhandle, or up the Mississippi River toward Tennessee). At some point I realized that a number of the guys couldn't read, which meant they couldn't read the green overhead directional signs. They navigated entirely by landmarks and memory. This meant they couldn't really drive anywhere new because they couldn't read the signs.

So...should there be people at exit ramps to help direct illiterate blacks to destinations? Is the lack of such guides all part of some racist plot?
Wow. You really can’t see the forest for the trees. Seems willful. Good luck with that.

Last edited by Klippenstein; Dec 27, 2021 at 3:06 PM. Reason: Quoted the wrong post
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  #48  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2021, 6:38 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Klippenstein View Post
Wow. You really can’t see the forest for the trees. Seems willful. Good luck with that.
Again, we have people attacking me personally rather than responding to the points I've raised.

The Beach Boys had their house in Hawthorne torn down for the Century Freeway. All they got was this lousy T-shirt:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9251...7i13312!8i6656
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  #49  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 4:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Again, we have people attacking me personally rather than responding to the points I've raised.

The Beach Boys had their house in Hawthorne torn down for the Century Freeway. All they got was this lousy T-shirt:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9251...7i13312!8i6656
The point is not the tearing down of the houses alone. It is that coupled with generational institutional racism. I’m not attacking you. I’m pointing out the fault in your argument.

For example, (while public housing is a mess in this country) when new public housing is being built where public housing was torn down and people displaced there are requirements beyond simply once living in the former public housing to receive a space in the new public housing… you must still be poor. Whatever justification you might have in your mind for why there are more black people who would meet those requirements is not my concern. The fact is institutional racism still impacts the outcomes of many people’s lives and addressing individual examples of how people have been historically and generationally disadvantaged is a positive step.

Good luck with whatever is stopping you from recognizing this. I don’t really care about your personal hang ups.
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