US Cities that are Helped/Hurt by being near Larger US Cities

[hughfb3]

Originally Posted by mhays

I assume this is a joke!

But yes, central cities do benefit from their suburbs in some ways...San Jose plays a big "bedroom" role for starters, as diamondpark shows.

Why would this be a joke? This is fact that is adding value to the conversation... San Jose has a larger resident population than San Francisco by ~200K while San Francisco has a larger daytime population by ~200K(jobs)... It's a perfect fact to be in the discussion on a thread titled "US Cities that are Helped/Hurt by being near Larger US Cities..." I love that @dimondpark added to the discussion the statistic of daytime population, seeing that it is a real fact that deals with the topic. Isn't that the point of why @SFBruin (assuming this name means "San Francisco [UCLA] Bruin") created this thread, to play with this topic and discover something...

Hello...?

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by dimondpark

San Jose is larger but San Francisco is more prominent.

This is the text from a I thread I created in CD a few years ago:



So San Francisco is larger than San Jose during the work week and San Jose is the only major city in this list to actually shrink during the work day as more people commute out than in.

But another huge revelation: HOUSTON has the largest number of inbound workers in the country(at least in 2017), actually more than New York, which is something I never would of thought possible-so that's very interesting.

Even Fort Worth isn’t truly just a bedroom community by this measure. I would have anticipated some shrinkage there as well.

[dimondpark]

Daytime Population Density Per Sq Mile, 2017:
New York, NY................31,037
San Francisco, CA.........23,992
Miami, FL.....................20,566
Boston, MA...................20,407
Washington, DC............19,033
Chicago, IL...................12,849
Philadelphia, PA............12,593
Seattle, WA..................10,917
Los Angeles, CA.............8,895
Baltimore, MD................8,882
Portland, OR...................5,892
Atlanta, GA....................5,840
Denver, CO....................5,649
Las Vegas, NV.................5,300
San Jose, CA..................5,212
San Diego, CA.................4,959
Houston, TX....................4,734
Dallas, TX........................4,609
Columbus, OH.................4,371
Austin, TX........................3,684
San Antonio, TX..............3,544
Phoenix, AZ.....................3,378
Charlotte, NC...................3,357
Indianapolis, IN................2,768
Ft Worth, TX.....................2,718
Memphis, TN...................2,430
Nashville, TN....................1,819
Jacksonville, FL...............1,304
Oklahoma City..................1,275

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by dimondpark

Daytime Population Density Per Sq Mile, 2017:
New York, NY................31,037
San Francisco, CA.........23,992
Miami, FL.....................20,566
Boston, MA...................20,407
Washington, DC............19,033
Chicago, IL...................12,849
Philadelphia, PA............12,593
Seattle, WA..................10,917
Los Angeles, CA.............8,895
Baltimore, MD................8,882
Portland, OR...................5,892
Atlanta, GA....................5,840
Denver, CO....................5,649
Las Vegas, NV.................5,300
San Jose, CA..................5,212
San Diego, CA.................4,959
Houston, TX....................4,734
Dallas, TX........................4,609
Columbus, OH.................4,371
Austin, TX........................3,684
San Antonio, TX..............3,544
Phoenix, AZ.....................3,378
Charlotte, NC...................3,357
Indianapolis, IN................2,768
Ft Worth, TX.....................2,718
Memphis, TN...................2,430
Nashville, TN....................1,819
Jacksonville, FL...............1,304
Oklahoma City..................1,275

More interesting is Manhattan's daytime density. The other boroughs lose population during the day, but Manhattan nearly doubles in population for a daytime density of almost 135,000 ppsm.

[llamaorama]

I think San Antonio being so close to Austin hurts it in certain ways. SA will never have a major airport as long as as ABIA exists.

On the other hand, both cities seem to specialize and San Antonio has everything that Austin doesn't and vice versa. It's got the military bases and more industry, more cheesy family oriented tourism, better preserved historic neighborhoods and a downtown that is more brick than glass, has more fans of pro sports, is cheaper, etc.

If you combined the two together in a blender you'd have a fairly average American city, but because they are separated both Austin and San Antonio seem a little unique, and that's a good thing.

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

More interesting is Manhattan's daytime density. The other boroughs lose population during the day, but Manhattan nearly doubles in population for a daytime density of almost 135,000 ppsm.

No doubt, Manhattan is other level. I'm also very impressed by Miami in this list.

If the census bureau could zero in on actual 'downtowns' or like a 'contiguous business district/zone'--there would be so much interesting data we could mine from that.

[dimondpark]

Just to illustrate Manhattan's largesse as a jobs center, I have this stat from the BEA's 2020 release of personal income.

Top Counties by Outflow of Earnings $25B+, 2019(5-year Change 2014-2019)
New York, NY $231,570,481(+$46.4 Billion )
Dallas, TX $73,329,440(+$20.5 Billion)
San Francisco, CA $66,194,988(+$29.4 Billion)
Washington, DC $64,194,988(+$10.3 Billion)
Harris, TX $59,784,063(+$9.2 Billion)
Cook, IL $59,733,355(+$9.9 Billion)
Suffolk, MA $57,405,202(+$13.9 Billion)
Los Angeles, CA $51,662,852(+$10.2 Billion)
Santa Clara, CA $50,711,130(+$16.8 Billion)
Fulton, GA $48,461,239(+$11.8 Billon)
Middlesex, MA $41,599,929(+$10.3 Billion)
Fairfax, VA $37,425,427(+$9.0 Billion)
Hennepin, MN $33,241,000(+$6.3 Billion)
Queens, NY $33,013,236($10.1 Billion)
San Mateo, CA $32,109,236(+$9.7 Billion)
Alameda, CA $32,094,088(+$6.3 Billion)
Philadelphia, PA $29,497,406(+$5.1 Billion)
Orange, CA $27,386,843(+$6.3 Billion)
King, WA $27,023,830(+$8.2 Billion)
Denver, CO $26,779,639(+$5.8 Billion)
DuPage, IL $26,453,235(+$3.6 Billon)

So in 2019, $231 billion was earned in Manhattan by workers who live outside of the borough, that amount by itself would rank as the 18th largest Metro Area economy in the United States.

On the receiving end...

Top Counties by Inflow of Earnings $30B+, 2019(Five-Year Change 2014-2019)
Kings, NY $53,603,335(+$10.8 Billion)
Queens, NY $48,005,863(+$10.1 Billion)
Alameda, CA $42,413,949(+$14.3 Billion)
Nassau, NY $40,040,122(+$8.1 Billion)
Westchester, NY $36,595,351(+6.3 Billion)
Contra Costa, CA $35,063,433(+$10.2 Billion)
Middlesex, MA $33,974,117(+$7.6 Billion)
San Mateo, CA $32,049,074(+$9.7 Billion)
Fairfax, VA $31,973,569(+$5.5 Billion)

source: bea.gov

EDIT: Notice Alameda, CA, San Mateo, CA , Queens, NY & Fairfax, VA are on both lists.

[craigs]

dimondpark's 2017 statistics regarding municipal daytime population, total residents employed, and daytime commuter inflow/outflow reveal another interesting nugget:

764,331 San Francisco, CA 523,364
+240,967

418,978 San Jose, CA 529,023
−110,045

While San Jose in 2017 had something like 200,000 more residents than did San Francisco, the number of employed residents differed by fewer than 6,000.

Given both cities had very low unemployment rates in 2017, my hunch is that these numbers indicate that San Jose had more children than San Francisco, and that the adult populations were essentially the same.

[MolsonExport]

Growth-wise, Hamilton is helped by its proximity to Toronto.
Profile-wise, Hamilton is hurt by its proximity to Toronto.

[bossabreezes]

Not really sure why there is a San Jose vs San Francisco thing going on here...anyone who knows the region knows that San Francisco is the 'City' of the Bay Area and San José, while large in population, is essentially SF's version of the Inland Empire (but nicer, on average.)

[Crawford]

Right, SJ isn't really comparable to SF, or even Oakland. It's (mostly) a big postwar bedroom suburb that happened to annex a large land area. It's the most "affordable" part of prime SV.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I agree. Actually, I don't think any of NYC's satellite cities are in great shape. Newark is the largest satellite, and also happens to be in the worst shape of them all.

Newark absolutely benefits from its proximity to NYC. If Newark were in Ohio it would be a disaster, but Newark is growing, lots of immigrants, little abandonment, and the core never really emptied out. Even the retail core never shuttered, though it got really downscale.

Also, I can't think of any regional business hub that is particularly struggling. Newark is probably the worst overall, but Stamford, White Plains, New Rochelle, Jersey City, Fort Lee, Morristown, Norwalk are all really expensive, high-demand cities almost entirely due to location. And even in the "bad years" none got particularly bad.

It's probably because, as previously mentioned, the region is expensive and NIMBY so the urban suburbs will always still have demand from immigrants, plus all these cities are important transit hubs with vibrant cores.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by hughfb3

Why would this be a joke? This is fact that is adding value to the conversation... San Jose has a larger resident population than San Francisco by ~200K while San Francisco has a larger daytime population by ~200K(jobs)... It's a perfect fact to be in the discussion on a thread titled "US Cities that are Helped/Hurt by being near Larger US Cities..." I love that @dimondpark added to the discussion the statistic of daytime population, seeing that it is a real fact that deals with the topic. Isn't that the point of why @SFBruin (assuming this name means "San Francisco [UCLA] Bruin") created this thread, to play with this topic and discover something...

Hello...?

I probably misinterpreted your post. In that case, apologies.

It sounded like you were suggesting that San Jose is the main city, not San Francisco. And of course municipal population isn't terribly relevant to that, particularly in this case where San Jose has simply annexed a vast suburban area.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by dimondpark

Daytime Population Density Per Sq Mile, 2017:
New York, NY................31,037
San Francisco, CA.........23,992
Miami, FL.....................20,566
Boston, MA...................20,407
Washington, DC............19,033
Chicago, IL...................12,849
Philadelphia, PA............12,593
Seattle, WA..................10,917
Los Angeles, CA.............8,895
Baltimore, MD................8,882
Portland, OR...................5,892
Atlanta, GA....................5,840
Denver, CO....................5,649
Las Vegas, NV.................5,300
San Jose, CA..................5,212
San Diego, CA.................4,959
Houston, TX....................4,734
Dallas, TX........................4,609
Columbus, OH.................4,371
Austin, TX........................3,684
San Antonio, TX..............3,544
Phoenix, AZ.....................3,378
Charlotte, NC...................3,357
Indianapolis, IN................2,768
Ft Worth, TX.....................2,718
Memphis, TN...................2,430
Nashville, TN....................1,819
Jacksonville, FL...............1,304
Oklahoma City..................1,275

This is a topic where it's hugely important to have a smaller land area in your municipality. If you can narrow it to downtown and not much else, you'll do well.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by bossabreezes

Not really sure why there is a San Jose vs San Francisco thing going on here...anyone who knows the region knows that San Francisco is the 'City' of the Bay Area and San José, while large in population, is essentially SF's version of the Inland Empire (but nicer, on average.)

Yes, but people get confused by the MSA thing. And some SJ folks (in various threads) like to tilt at windmills.

[Minato Ku]

In France, Rouen is often seen as a city hurt by its proximity to Paris.
Rouen is located 100km west of Paris and it's the largest city in Normandy.

Rouen used to be one of the largest city in France before the industrial revolution.
Now, Rouen isn't even in the top 10 of France largest metropolitan areas. It's not even acknowledge as a major city of France anymore. Just a big medium city.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by mhays

Yes, but people get confused by the MSA thing. And some SJ folks (in various threads) like to tilt at windmills.

Agreed on the windmill tilting.

I mean, it's okay to note that strictly by municipal population, San Jose is more populous than San Francisco. And it's also okay to note that San Francisco's urban area is twice as populous as SJ's, while SJ's MSA has only 42% of the population of San Francisco's MSA.

But the reason the Bay Area nickname for San Francisco is "The City" has less to do with population statistics and more to do with its historical form and function. In terms of form, no other municipality in the Bay Area is more urban, densely populated, transit- and pedestrian-oriented, or as studded with mid-rises, high-rises and skyscrapers. As for function, San Francisco contains within its municipal boundaries more jobs, trains and buses, museums, courthouses, government agencies, bars and restaurants, hotel rooms, colleges and universities, etc. than any other in the region.

[JManc]

Lies. San Francisco is actually a suburb of Sausalito.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by JManc

Lies. San Francisco is actually a suburb of Sausalito.

One Belvedere to rule them all!

[3rd&Brown]

Lately, Philadelphia is no doubt helped by it's proximity to New York.

This weekend, I met no fewer than 7 people who left New York and relocated to Philadelphia during the pandemic and all of them are here to stay. (For now).

I didn't even talk to that many people

Anyway. I am one of them. I am remote through the end of the year and thereafter, I will only have to be in my office in Manhattan 2 days a week. I can deal with Amtrak two days a week.

I settle on a new construction 1900 square foot house with water and skyline views that I'm buying for $530K. In NYC, that would be a studio.

There's a massive amount of residential construction in Philadelphia (in the neighborhood of 10k units from what I've read) and I'm starting to think a surprising amount of it is being driven by NY transplants.