CHICAGO | General Discussions

[Klippenstein]

Not sure if anybody posted this study yet about the loss of 2-4 unit buildings in Chicago.

https://www.housingstudies.org/relea...dings-chicago/

More than other residential properties, IHS analysis shows that 2 to 4 unit buildings were more significantly impacted by foreclosure during the Great Recession than other property types with nearly 30 percent of 2 to 4 unit parcels associated with at least one foreclosure filing since 2005. In the years following the Great Recession, as rental housing demand and the overall rental supply in Chicago grew, the city still saw losses to the 2 to 4 rental stock. IHS's upcoming State of Rental Housing in Cook County report finds that between 2012 and 2019, the city lost roughly 6 percent of its 2 to 4 unit rental stock. As this analysis will show, it is likely that many of these units have been permanently lost to conversion or demolition and, once lost, are unlikely to be replaced and if replaced are unlikely to be affordable. Due to the importance of this type of housing, it is critical to affordable housing policy to understand the factors driving the loss and instability of these rental units and buildings in different neighborhood market contexts. Without intervention, this essential component of Chicago's affordable housing stock could be further threatened by the economic fallout of the COVID-19 pandemic.

[OrdoSeclorum]

It turns out that Chicago, Philly and Raleigh were the top three choices for Amazon's HQ2 and that Bezos just made a decision with his gut.

Ignoring the specific details, the fundamentals as judged by Amazon exist and are real. These three locations are among the best choices for growth like this in the future, regardless of what happened in the Amazon situation. I believe Raleigh is getting a large new Apple R&D facility.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/b...rad-stone.html

[IrishIllini]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

It turns out that Chicago, Philly and Raleigh were the top three choices for Amazon's HQ2 and that Bezos just made a decision with his gut.

Ignoring the specific details, the fundamentals as judged by Amazon exist and are real. These three locations are among the best choices for growth like this in the future, regardless of what happened in the Amazon situation. I believe Raleigh is getting a large new Apple R&D facility.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/b...rad-stone.html

Not subscribed, so couldn't read the article, but based on your post, I feel like the Chicagoland area may be in an "awkward phase" where it's too big a player to be perceived as fresh, but not "sexy" enough to warrant indiscriminate investment like NYC or LA.

The smaller fish may have to catch up a bit before we can put the petal to the metal. Further erode any cost of living advantage. More traffic and other big city problems elsewhere could be necessary to accelerate the growth engine at home.

[marothisu]

I think Chicago already has a plan for this and there's no reason it can't be on or near the same level as LA. It shpuld absolutely not wait for smaller cities to play catch up. If that happens then Chicago is already behind. It's a good thing some leaders understand that while they might be ahead of some areas, it's still behind others and there is ground to make up ASAP.

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by marothisu

I think Chicago already has a plan for this and there's no reason it can't be on or near the same level as LA. It shpuld absolutely not wait for smaller cities to play catch up. If that happens then Chicago is already behind. It's a good thing some leaders understand that while they might be ahead of some areas, it's still behind others and there is ground to make up ASAP.

I've said it before, and I'll continue saying it until I'm blue in the face: Chicago's biggest liability is that it doesn't have the mammoth media presence that both NYC and LA have. Ever since the 60s, multi-hyphenate media conglomerates (in their various iterations, both past and present), helped push the narrative that only in bi-coastal America, could you be classy, formal, sophisticated, worldly AND achieve the highest high of the 'American Dream'. And people have always bought into that narrative, because we are now and have always been a highly consumerist society, placing preference on optics over substance, whether or not there was actually any truth to what was being sold. A big part of the fault lies in Chicago leadership through the 50s-70s, that focused wealth and influence in a small, insular closed circle of elitism that awarded cronyism and personal connections, where outsiders were not welcome....compared to the attitude of 'if you can make it here (NYC/LA), you can make it anywhere', and also where outside (European, Asian, African, South American) cultural influence were elevated and more easily accessible.
The same mass-market media conglomerates still also push the false narrative that Chicago now has Somalia-levels of violence and crime, while totally ignoring the fact that nearly all of the violence is gang & drug related in very specific blighted communities, AND that even bi-coastal metros have very similar crime rates, even pre-pandemic.
Chicago does have A LOT of catching up to do, especially in how to position itself in a post-pandemic world for success, growth and the ability to thrive organically. But it's not helped by maintaining that parochial, closed-circle mentality (hell, even Crains had an in-depth article about that a couple of years back). People, families, companies, feel they HAVE to be here for a myriad number of reasons, instead of wanting to be here. Chicago is not 'sexy', and sex sells, whether you like it or not. Sexiness also brings collateral benefits, but sexy ostentation is too much for the parochial masses here...just look at the insular, bedroom-community attitude of the whole of DuPage county, one of the most populated counties of the country. There is nothing desirable about a place like DuPage county..hell, even a big chunk of Cook County too.
Don't EVEN get me started on how decades of political corruption has forever tainted Chicago's desirability..that's a whole other major chapter in the story..

[marothisu]

^ I tend to agree. A lot of the people who come here to NYC for example, at least younger people (new or recent college graduates) go big time on the media vision of the city. Probably back in the 90s it was more accessible as things were more affordable overall, but it's still going strong today. I mean, lower Manhattan (SoHo, West Village, TriBeCa, etc) has really no comparable anywhere in the US but still out of reach for most to live in unless they are trust fund kids or legitimately well off. Many people live in less than ideal conditions there who have good jobs just so they can live around there (i.e. 2 bedrooms carved out of a small living room, and the ability to fit almost nothing more in it than a twin sized bed).

Chicago is definitely seen as "not sexy" to a lot, where apparently high levels of violent crime permeate every corner of the city somehow, and it's about 20 degrees colder than reality. One of our neighbors here is the head or one of the heads of a small country's embassy here. When saying we were relocating back to Chicago it was definitely a regurgitation of media sound bytes like these. I think there was a small amount of surprise when I said that the majority of where the city lives doesn't see some high levels of violent crime and it's not in the negatives year round.

My wife is a marketer (with a masters in it) and the first time she spent a weekend with me in Chicago when I was splitting time between there and NYC, she immediately pointed out that Chicago's marketing is really, really bad and it needs a new marketing campaign. The reality versus what's in the media is pretty crazy actually. There is some truth to what the media says of course, but they try and paint the entire city as if there's murder happening literally everywhere on a daily basis which is just extremely far from the truth (so far this year, 76% of the city's homicides occurred where only 25% of the city's population resides for example).

Between when I'd first moved to Chicago and now, it's definitely attracted some more diversity in some areas (whether racial, business, or in terms of personalities) but still could do a lot more. There's obviously many problems, but pretty much every city has problems. I hate to be a pessimist but there's no such thing as a perfect city.

Chicago basically needs a brand new marketing campaign - preferably not run by people in their 50s (no offense to anyone) and kind of smash the decades old stereotypes that the media loves to play up.

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by sentinel

I've said it before, and I'll continue saying it until I'm blue in the face: Chicago's biggest liability is that it doesn't have the mammoth media presence that both NYC and LA have. Ever since the 60s, multi-hyphenate media conglomerates (in their various iterations, both past and present), helped push the narrative that only in bi-coastal America, could you be classy, formal, sophisticated, worldly AND achieve the highest high of the 'American Dream'. And people have always bought into that narrative, because we are now and have always been a highly consumerist society, placing preference on optics over substance, whether or not there was actually any truth to what was being sold.

What makes you think it was just a 50s-70s problem instead of an “entire U.S. history” problem? Wishing for Chicago to be populated by different people with a different culture and mentality ...doesn’t lead to anything. Chicago is Chicago, and the city will change organically according to whoever decides to make it their home.

For example, a huge plot point of ‘The Great Gatsby’ if you read carefully is that it’s about people from Chicago going to New York for NYC’s sophisticated and glamorous lifestyle and ruining everything. Because even back then Chicago was a negative buzzword with most of the same criticisms as today.

—“I see now that this has been a story of the West, after all--Tom and Gatsby, Daisy and Jordan and I, were all Westerners, and perhaps we possessed some deficiency in common which made us subtly unadaptable to Eastern life.”

As for marketing, it’s hard to fight back against tropes dating back to the Civil War. There’s always going to be one city in the nation to be the stand-in for anti-urban sentiment and societal ills, and Chicago got that dubious honor practically since the city was founded.

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by galleyfox

What makes you think it was just a 50s-70s problem instead of an “entire U.S. history” problem? Wishing for Chicago to be populated by different people with a different culture and mentality ...doesn’t lead to anything. Chicago is Chicago, and the city will change organically according to whoever decides to make it their home.

For example, a huge plot point of ‘The Great Gatsby’ if you read carefully is that it’s about people from Chicago going to New York for NYC’s sophisticated and glamorous lifestyle and ruining everything. Because even back then Chicago was a negative buzzword with most of the same criticisms as today.

—“I see now that this has been a story of the West, after all--Tom and Gatsby, Daisy and Jordan and I, were all Westerners, and perhaps we possessed some deficiency in common which made us subtly unadaptable to Eastern life.”

As for marketing, it’s hard to fight back against tropes dating back to the Civil War. There’s always going to be one city in the nation to be the stand-in for anti-urban sentiment and societal ills, and Chicago got that dubious honor practically since the city was founded.

Have you ever heard of a city named 'Detroit'?

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by sentinel

Have you ever heard of a city named 'Detroit'?

Detroit fell too hard. (On top of a shorter history of being the scapegoat than Chicago)

On the marketing front, the media isn’t comfortable using Detroit as the anti-urban scapegoat without feeling like they’re punching down. So Detroit gets its fair share of ‘Well actually, Detroit has some good things too!’ publicity.

'A Love Letter to Detroit,' on Vellum and Chrome - The New York Times
Nov 26, 2020

Chicago on the other hand is considered fair game. You can be guaranteed whatever social issue is on people’s minds-Chicago will get the full scathing exposé, on top of relentless political attacks from opposition.

Other cities get this media treatment occasionally. For Chicago, it’s been almost 160 continuous years.

Black Lives Are Shorter in Chicago. My Family's History Shows Why. - The New York Times Apr 28, 2021

[Handro]

Chicago and Illinois have always been seen as backwater western (and later midwestern) outposts. But I do agree that the insular attitudes, cultural conservativism and horrible (both in substance and quantity) marketing have kept the city spinning its wheels as an afterthought to most people outside the professional class (and even among them, it seems to have the same appeal as a nice office: a good place to do business but not to hang out on the weekends, metaphorically.) For its size and class, Chicago should have a way bigger place in the cultural zeitgeist than it does. Surprise is probably the most common reaction for every first time visitor I've ever talked to.

The burgeoning film industry gaining momentum and the tech scene (more exciting than consulting and finance) expanding are the two widest avenues to try and broaden the appeal of the city. Trying to attract artists of all stripes should be a high priority if the city really wants to capture the next generation and grow the city's population. Offering tax credits for building studio space, lotteries for insanely cheap artist housing, etc. are starts. "Forcing" people from Big Ten schools to move here because they get a job in marketing isn't going to be enough to plant seeds for exponential growth, IMO. They'll just end up moving back to Minnesota or on to one of the coasts as their career blossoms. Chicago needs to become cool, and white collar jobs in legacy industries aren't cool. We need lots more small town kids moving to Chicago because it seems cool. Of course crime is the dark cloud hanging over everything, but one could argue that conservatism is the main barrier to solving that issue as well (we need more affordable housing in desirable neighborhoods, less resistance to investment in blighted ones)

It's going to take more than commercials for tourism to get the city on the map, does anyone know what the city does to try to capture attention beyond the obvious?

My girlfriend was on a work call with some people from Columbus not long ago and the topic of weather came up, the Columbus people went on at length on how they could never live in Chicago because it's so cold, how does she manage to live somewhere like "Chiberia"... anyway long story short it was colder in Columbus that day than Chicago. How do people from Columbus, OH of all places get the idea that Chicago is a wintery wasteland?

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by Handro

My girlfriend was on a work call with some people from Columbus not long ago and the topic of weather came up, the Columbus people went on at length on how they could never live in Chicago because it's so cold, how does she manage to live somewhere like "Chiberia"... anyway long story short it was colder in Columbus that day than Chicago. How do people from Columbus, OH of all places get the idea that Chicago is a wintery wasteland?

Photography.

Most of the other famous Winter cities look more palatial and Christmas-y.

Chicago’s skyscraper core rising abruptly from the seeming frozen tundra looks stark and primeval.

Chicago
• Video Link
https://youtu.be/sasESBLgpCg

Moscow
• Video Link
https://youtu.be/rAxhaiNNfRk

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Handro

How do people from Columbus, OH of all places get the idea that Chicago is a wintery wasteland?

because of the grand pecking order.

if another city has a winter that's a little bit colder and snowier than your city's winter, then you have to shit all over it and endlessly talk up its horribleness so that you can feel better about where you live.

people in atlanta shit on DC winters
people in DC shit on NYC winters
people in NYC shit on boston winters
people in boston shit on chicago winters
people in chicago shit on minneapolis winters
people in minneapolis shit on winnipeg winters
people in winnipeg are in fact just pygmy polar bears dressed in human clothing.

[IrishIllini]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

because of the grand pecking order.

if another city has a winter that's a little bit colder and snowier than your city's winter, then you have to shit all over it and endlessly talk up its horribleness so that you can feel better about where you live.

people in atlanta shit on DC winters
people in DC shit on NYC winters
people in NYC shit on boston winters
people in boston shit on chicago winters
people in chicago shit on minneapolis winters
people in minneapolis shit on winnipeg winters
people in winnipeg are in fact just pygmy polar bears dressed in human clothing.

If it can realistically snow before Thanksgiving (and certainly on or around Halloween) you should not be shitting on anywhere for less than ideal weather. That excludes everyone but Atlanta.

I have a few friends from the NE that so regularly groan about it never being this cold in the NE and I'll just pull up the weather. If it's 32 in Chicago, it's 38 in NYC, Boston, or Philly. Warmer, but not warm.

[twister244]

I know this might sounds weird, but be careful for what you wish for. Chicago is an amazing city, and has a reputation of being an amazing city with a lot of people, just not to the degree NY/LA has. Chicago definitely needs to do a better job marketing, but Chicago should make sure it maintains the "identity", grit, and affordability that sets it apart from NY/LA.

I want Chicago to start regaining people and grow, but I don't want to see Chicago become another horribly overpriced "hip" city in America. This is basically what's happening to Denver and Austin, and it's not something you want to strive for. A good balanced approach to improving the city's image, maintaining those amazing neighborhoods in the city, while keeping it affordable for all people is what should be the goal here.

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by twister244

I know this might sounds weird, but be careful for what you wish for. Chicago is an amazing city, and has a reputation of being an amazing city with a lot of people, just not to the degree NY/LA has. Chicago definitely needs to do a better job marketing, but Chicago should make sure it maintains the "identity", grit, and affordability that sets it apart from NY/LA.

I want Chicago to start regaining people and grow, but I don't want to see Chicago become another horribly overpriced "hip" city in America. This is basically what's happening to Denver and Austin, and it's not something you want to strive for. A good balanced approach to improving the city's image, maintaining those amazing neighborhoods in the city, while keeping it affordable for all people is what should be the goal here.

This is a really excellent point, and something that I didn't think to add in my initial comment. I absolutely agree about maintaining a balance..

..maybe that's the prime marketing tactic that city leaders should use: "Chicago: the balance between the coasts."

[IrishIllini]

I think Chicago on the whole is so far from having too much growth that it's not even something we need to seriously think about. There are dozens of city neighborhoods that are criminally underpopulated with the existing infrastructure to support tens of thousands of more people literally overnight.

It's the opposite issue in a place like Denver or Austin. If the city added 300k people between today and 2030 we'd probably hardly notice. Those numbers in Denver or Austin would be and are crippling their existing infrastructure.

[the urban politician]

^ Chicago isn't adding people, it's churning its people

[IrishIllini]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Chicago isn't adding people, it's churning its people

We'll see!

Either way I don't expect it to be a meaningful change in either direction. +/- 25-30k?

[left of center]

Originally Posted by twister244

I know this might sounds weird, but be careful for what you wish for. Chicago is an amazing city, and has a reputation of being an amazing city with a lot of people, just not to the degree NY/LA has. Chicago definitely needs to do a better job marketing, but Chicago should make sure it maintains the "identity", grit, and affordability that sets it apart from NY/LA.

I want Chicago to start regaining people and grow, but I don't want to see Chicago become another horribly overpriced "hip" city in America. This is basically what's happening to Denver and Austin, and it's not something you want to strive for. A good balanced approach to improving the city's image, maintaining those amazing neighborhoods in the city, while keeping it affordable for all people is what should be the goal here.

For us to "screw" up in this way would be a nearly impossible stroke of luck, lol. The city could start turning the tides on population loss and its reputation, but for hundreds of thousands of people to start moving in to the point where we lose all the "grit" on the south and west sides would literally take many decades, if ever.

I don't think Chicago has to worry about becoming "too popular". It certainly won't be a problem in our lifetimes. We have a *lot* of work ahead of us before that has a remote chance of happening.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

because of the grand pecking order.

if another city has a winter that's a little bit colder and snowier than your city's winter, then you have to shit all over it and endlessly talk up its horribleness so that you can feel better about where you live.

people in atlanta shit on DC winters
people in DC shit on NYC winters
people in NYC shit on boston winters
people in boston shit on chicago winters
people in chicago shit on minneapolis winters
people in minneapolis shit on winnipeg winters
people in winnipeg are in fact just pygmy polar bears dressed in human clothing.

Boston winters are warmer but much snowier than Chicago. Not sure that's better...
Anyway obviously Winnipeg shits on Inuvik who shits on Yakutsk who who tries to shit but the shit freezes to their asses on the way out.