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Old Posted Feb 29, 2024, 1:59 AM
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St. Louis North-South Metrolink expansion route OK'd by regional board

Regional board votes to OK north-south MetroLink expansion route

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The St. Louis region's planning agency voted Wednesday to approve a north-south MetroLink expansion route, though the project still faces future hurdles, including procuring important federal grants.

Members of the East-West Gateway Council of Governments voted 14-5 to adopt the light rail route, running in the street from Jefferson Avenue at Chippewa Street north to Natural Bridge Avenue in the city of St. Louis, and connecting with the current MetroLink system via a transfer station. The organization made the route its locally preferred alternative, allowing transit agency Bi-State Development to work with the city to start project development and apply for federal funds.

Bi-State anticipates completing environmental assessment work for the project in 2025 and design work in late 2026. Construction could come from 2027 to 2030, it said. The agency in January revealed that the extension, which was shifted west in 2022 amid changes in work patterns after the Covid-19 pandemic, could now cost $1.1 billion. That's up from prior estimates, though officials said Wednesday they hoped to get the figure down to $800 million to $850 million, perhaps by utilizing a current maintenance facility instead of building a new one.

The expansion, which would have 10 stations, could attract 5,000 riders a day, Bi-State said.

Bi-State envisions getting $658.9 million in U.S. Federal Transit Administration grants, $218.9 million from U.S. Department of Transportation loans, $132.2 million from bonds it would issue, and $90 million from city of St. Louis Proposition 1 and other funds.

Bi-State President and CEO Taulby Roach cited Prop 1, passed by voters in 2017, as reason to add light rail, as opposed to alternatives like bus rapid transit. Operating costs for the expansion, to be covered by city taxes, would run $8 million to $9 million annually, Roach said.
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/...uth-board.html
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Old Posted Feb 29, 2024, 4:06 AM
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The expansion, which would have 10 stations, could attract 5,000 riders a day, Bi-State said.

That's the kind of ridership projection that makes you go limp.
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Old Posted Feb 29, 2024, 4:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
That's the kind of ridership projection that makes you go limp.
Frankly, there is nobody to ride the line. It might as well be a line into farmland. The north side of St. Louis, and specifically the areas labelled callously as "opportunity zones", is some of the most severely decayed urban land on the planet.

Here is the intersection where the St. Louis Ave. station is on that map:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6529...8192?entry=ttu
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You guys are laughing now but Jacksonville will soon assume its rightful place as the largest and most important city on Earth.

I heard the UN is moving its HQ there. The eiffel tower is moving there soon as well. Elon Musk even decided he didnt want to go to mars anymore after visiting.
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Old Posted Feb 29, 2024, 7:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jbermingham123 View Post
Frankly, there is nobody to ride the line. It might as well be a line into farmland. The north side of St. Louis, and specifically the areas labelled callously as "opportunity zones", is some of the most severely decayed urban land on the planet.

Here is the intersection where the St. Louis Ave. station is on that map:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6529...8192?entry=ttu
But... why does that area need a light rail route? 5k riders per day isn't even particularly busy for a bus route let alone enough to warrant an LRT. My local bus route gets 50% more than that in a metro area of less than 1/5 the size and it only runs every 20 minutes off peak.
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Old Posted Feb 29, 2024, 8:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
But... why does that area need a light rail route? 5k riders per day isn't even particularly busy for a bus route let alone enough to warrant an LRT. My local bus route gets 50% more than that in a metro area of less than 1/5 the size and it only runs every 20 minutes off peak.
Exactly. It doesnt need this, and I'd argue it doesnt need anything.

The area needed investment 50 years ago, but it didnt get it. And I need to be as blunt as possible here: it. is. too. late. now. North St. Louis is gone.




The remaining population there are almost entirely baby boomer and silent generation holdouts. The (legal, official) population will drop fully to zero in 20 years. i guarantee it. But saying "anything is possible" gets people elected, so civic leaders and aldermen will always say that. But its a lie. Cities are living things. living things can die. watering dead plants doesnt make them green again.

This project, like the delmar trolley, is part of a death spiral of wasting money on things that healthy cities have, without doing anything to make the city healthy. Kind of like noticing that racecars all have advertisements on them, and concluding that you can make your car go faster by painting advertisements on it.
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You guys are laughing now but Jacksonville will soon assume its rightful place as the largest and most important city on Earth.

I heard the UN is moving its HQ there. The eiffel tower is moving there soon as well. Elon Musk even decided he didnt want to go to mars anymore after visiting.
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Old Posted Feb 29, 2024, 7:48 PM
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Well, I mean the profession is called Transportation Planning not Transportation Reaction. It's a helluva lot easier and wiser to implement projects like this before considerable redevelopment happens than after. No, when the line opens it will not have a lot of riders. There is little in North St. Louis. And North St. Louis will not regenerate to the way that it used to be. That ship sailed. The building stock is largely gone. However, the City is keen on investing in that area to bring it back in some shape or form. And to do that they need to provide equitable investments. A light rail line provides mass transit capacity as much as it shows a commitment to investing in one of the most heavily disinvested areas in the country while also being a catalyst for change. Change that is already being seen there. The NGA West project represents an influx of 3000+ high paying jobs onto a large site in North St. Louis that will be served by this light rail line. To ensure that momentum continues, big ideas need to be a part of the equation; a bus line isn't going to cut it.

Along with the light-rail line, the city is conducting arterial lane reallocation efforts in north City along several corridors, with the goal to crate a more multimodal environment with safe and comfortable biking and walking infrastructure that will add connectivity.

Furthermore, you're concentrating on only half the line. It goes through the Central Corridor and South City as much as it does North City. There are many more prime redevelopment opportunities today in this area, some of which are currently being taken advantage of: https://www.cityscene-stl.com/post/a...moving-forward.
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Old Posted Feb 29, 2024, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jbermingham123 View Post
The (legal, official) population will drop fully to zero in 20 years. i guarantee it.
Wait.

What?

North city St. Louis might still hemorrhage population over the next two decades, but it seems preposterous to me that it will drop to actual, literal zero.

I mean, it was home to like 73,000 people in 2020 (IIRC). There's no way that the 2050 census will peg it at zero. That's now how these things work.
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Old Posted Mar 1, 2024, 4:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jbermingham123 View Post
Exactly. It doesnt need this, and I'd argue it doesnt need anything.

The area needed investment 50 years ago, but it didnt get it. And I need to be as blunt as possible here: it. is. too. late. now. North St. Louis is gone.




The remaining population there are almost entirely baby boomer and silent generation holdouts. The (legal, official) population will drop fully to zero in 20 years. i guarantee it. But saying "anything is possible" gets people elected, so civic leaders and aldermen will always say that. But its a lie. Cities are living things. living things can die. watering dead plants doesnt make them green again.

This project, like the delmar trolley, is part of a death spiral of wasting money on things that healthy cities have, without doing anything to make the city healthy. Kind of like noticing that racecars all have advertisements on them, and concluding that you can make your car go faster by painting advertisements on it.
1. St. Louis has a relatively successful light rail systen with nearly 50 miles of track in two states that serves a metropolitan area of almost 3 Million people. Why would the region just abandon it's transit ambitions just because it's not a fast growing or "it" city? There are many citizens, major corporations, universities, civic institutions, etc. that are invested in the city and want to reinvigorate the urban core.

2. The near northside of St. Louis is the least populated area of the city and a product of failed urban renewal programs like slum clearance, massive public housing disasters, and systematic disinvestment. There is a lot of empty land up there, but there are still people that call it home and will never move. Your mindset of just let them die on the vine is the exact reason areas like that exist in this country, smart redevelopment plans are needed to bolster areas like this. In fact, there are major plans for the area whether the area builds the light rail or not. The NGA has built a major multi-billion dollar facility directly on North Jefferson Avenue and will get a stop on the light rail.

3. The feds have already surveyed the area several times and Buttigeg even took a tour of the area. The feds have pretty much told St. Louis that if they have a federal mandate to reinvigorate the area around the newly built federal facility and the Obama adminstration purposely chose to build that facility (which will be complete in 2026) in the roughest area of town to help
promote economic development within the "promise zone".

4. Conveniently, you pointed out the most desolate area along the route to draw your conclusion. It seems like you have a personal disdain for St. Louis, which is strange to me. You're from Jacksonville, I've lived there. Not really anything to write home about from an urbanist perspective.

5. This is literally, less than 1000 ft from the area you posted. There are still some intact urban blocks near by with beautiful historic homes. The area just needs infill and there are already plans to do so.

St. Louis Avenue: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6521...8192?entry=ttu

Also, it seems that you failed to point out that the proposed line also goes through some of the densest areas in the metropolitan area. Many residential neighborhoods like this with 10,000 ppsm density.

Cherokee St.:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5938...8192?entry=ttu

Lafayette Square:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6202...8192?entry=ttu

Downtown West:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6340...8192?entry=ttu

5. In conclusion, it's amazing to me how much hate a place like St. Louis gets for trying to improve the quality of life for it's citizenry. This is something that the people of the city voted and increased their taxes for (something a lot of "successful cities" like Nashville and Austin have struggled with), because they see the value of the current Metrolink system and want to expand it. St. Louis is a legacy city and is definitely has it's fair share of problems, but I never hear this when a place like Charlotte or Phoenix proposed transit expansions. Are cities not allowed to reinvest in themselves?
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  #9  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2024, 4:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Six Corners View Post
Well, I mean the profession is called Transportation Planning not Transportation Reaction. It's a helluva lot easier and wiser to implement projects like this before considerable redevelopment happens than after. No, when the line opens it will not have a lot of riders. There is little in North St. Louis. And North St. Louis will not regenerate to the way that it used to be. That ship sailed. The building stock is largely gone. However, the City is keen on investing in that area to bring it back in some shape or form. And to do that they need to provide equitable investments. A light rail line provides mass transit capacity as much as it shows a commitment to investing in one of the most heavily disinvested areas in the country while also being a catalyst for change. Change that is already being seen there. The NGA West project represents an influx of 3000+ high paying jobs onto a large site in North St. Louis that will be served by this light rail line. To ensure that momentum continues, big ideas need to be a part of the equation; a bus line isn't going to cut it.

Along with the light-rail line, the city is conducting arterial lane reallocation efforts in north City along several corridors, with the goal to crate a more multimodal environment with safe and comfortable biking and walking infrastructure that will add connectivity.

Furthermore, you're concentrating on only half the line. It goes through the Central Corridor and South City as much as it does North City. There are many more prime redevelopment opportunities today in this area, some of which are currently being taken advantage of: https://www.cityscene-stl.com/post/a...moving-forward.
I agree with everything you said, but this. There are still A LOT of intact blocks throughout North St. Louis. Most of the extreme blight is mostly concentrated on the near northside. Even some of the areas that have blight commercial corridors, still have relatively intact residential blocks. What sucks the most is when people make blanket statements about communities and people they don't even know. Like people will say stupid stuff like blow up the Southside of Chicago, not realizing that there are people that love their communities, warts and all, and will never relocate. The idea that St. Louis, Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, etc. will ever go to zero population is absolute nonsense. When I lived in St. Louis, I knew people from the wealthiest areas in the region to the poorest and in most of them were good people and wanted the same thing.
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Old Posted Mar 1, 2024, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goat314 View Post
1. St. Louis has a relatively successful light rail systen with nearly 50 miles of track in two states that serves a metropolitan area of almost 3 Million people. Why would the region just abandon it's transit ambitions just because it's not a fast growing or "it" city? There are many citizens, major corporations, universities, civic institutions, etc. that are invested in the city and want to reinvigorate the urban core.

2. The near northside of St. Louis is the least populated area of the city and a product of failed urban renewal programs like slum clearance, massive public housing disasters, and systematic disinvestment. There is a lot of empty land up there, but there are still people that call it home and will never move. Your mindset of just let them die on the vine is the exact reason areas like that exist in this country, smart redevelopment plans are needed to bolster areas like this. In fact, there are major plans for the area whether the area builds the light rail or not. The NGA has built a major multi-billion dollar facility directly on North Jefferson Avenue and will get a stop on the light rail.

3. The feds have already surveyed the area several times and Buttigeg even took a tour of the area. The feds have pretty much told St. Louis that if they have a federal mandate to reinvigorate the area around the newly built federal facility and the Obama adminstration purposely chose to build that facility (which will be complete in 2026) in the roughest area of town to help
promote economic development within the "promise zone".

4. Conveniently, you pointed out the most desolate area along the route to draw your conclusion. It seems like you have a personal disdain for St. Louis, which is strange to me. You're from Jacksonville, I've lived there. Not really anything to write home about from an urbanist perspective.

5. This is literally, less than 1000 ft from the area you posted. There are still some intact urban blocks near by with beautiful historic homes. The area just needs infill and there are already plans to do so.

St. Louis Avenue: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6521...8192?entry=ttu

Also, it seems that you failed to point out that the proposed line also goes through some of the densest areas in the metropolitan area. Many residential neighborhoods like this with 10,000 ppsm density.

Cherokee St.:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5938...8192?entry=ttu

Lafayette Square:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6202...8192?entry=ttu

Downtown West:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6340...8192?entry=ttu

5. In conclusion, it's amazing to me how much hate a place like St. Louis gets for trying to improve the quality of life for it's citizenry. This is something that the people of the city voted and increased their taxes for (something a lot of "successful cities" like Nashville and Austin have struggled with), because they see the value of the current Metrolink system and want to expand it. St. Louis is a legacy city and is definitely has it's fair share of problems, but I never hear this when a place like Charlotte or Phoenix proposed transit expansions. Are cities not allowed to reinvest in themselves?
The Jacksonville signature is just a silly thing. I've never lived there. I have, however, lived in St. Louis. I lived there for 10 years, from when I was 14 until I was 24. I know what im talking about, and stand by what I said.

The south side (the three examples you pointed out) is doing great, and could really use a metrolink line, albeit on a different alignment than this plan. But im sorry, the north side is done. I was a doordasher for a few years when i lived there, and have been all around the north side. There are great people there. But the young are leaving and the old are.. departing.

As for the NGA and other federal plans to "reinvigorate" the area, i mean, thats pretty bleak. Frankly, the NGA facility destroyed the last bit of hope I had for the north side. They tore out 30 blocks worth of streets for a suburban-style campus, which will be fenced off from the surrounding neighborhood for security. st louis got used. they might as well have put a maximum security prison there.

and yes, there are some intact blocks up there. but that wasnt a cherry picked intersection, it was just the best example. and a few intact blocks DOES NOT justify this level of spending. they need to start with a bus line, but even BRTs have more ridership than that.

Its funny you would call metrolink successful. I'm shocked its not bankrupt. the surges in ridership during cards and blues games provide most of the revenue at this point
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You guys are laughing now but Jacksonville will soon assume its rightful place as the largest and most important city on Earth.

I heard the UN is moving its HQ there. The eiffel tower is moving there soon as well. Elon Musk even decided he didnt want to go to mars anymore after visiting.
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  #11  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2024, 5:14 PM
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I don't know St. Louis that well so maybe it makes more sense than it sounds based on the description. But I will say that while planning is better as a proactive than a reactive exercise, that means proactively addressing impending needs based on current growth trends instead of waiting until the growth causes problems due to inadequate infrastructure. But it doesn't mean spending current money based on far future possibilities, hopes or positive thinking.

Yes you can plan for more distant, less certain things by say, reserving land in case of future need. But that's different than actually spending hundreds of millions on physical infrastructure. Not only because of the risk that the use case will never materialize, but also that there's an opportunity cost for funds that could be used elsewhere in the meantime. $1.1 billion is a lot and could provide a lot of say, improved local an regional bus service. Spending it in a particular place and waiting for a return means lost interest in the form of what the money could be doing while one waits.
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Old Posted Mar 1, 2024, 5:43 PM
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The north segment makes more sense as a precursor to Phase 2, which goes to much denser areas.

I hope it spurs investment. The entire north area looks desolate from the air, except a few blocks at the farthest end of Phase 1. Even that's only SFR density. The federal facility has some jobs but takes an absurd amount of land and won't contribute much.

This is basically a streetcar. I'm skeptical of streetcars because it's too easy to block them, even if they're in dedicated lanes. A bus every 10 minutes with some BRT-lite infrastructure improvements (bulbs, signal priority, fewer stops...) would have most of the benefits and overcome blockages more easily.

But rail has a way of spurring investment. Maybe it'll work that way here.
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Old Posted Mar 1, 2024, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Yes you can plan for more distant, less certain things by say, reserving land in case of future need. But that's different than actually spending hundreds of millions on physical infrastructure. Not only because of the risk that the use case will never materialize, but also that there's an opportunity cost for funds that could be used elsewhere in the meantime. $1.1 billion is a lot and could provide a lot of say, improved local an regional bus service. Spending it in a particular place and waiting for a return means lost interest in the form of what the money could be doing while one waits.
Most of the funding is coming from federal funding sources. So it's not a matter of if this is the appropriate area for spending that amount of money right now, it's a matter of either spending this money on light rail, or at the very least some kind of transit, or it gets spent in an entirely different region instead and risking the window for such funding closes in the future. Could they spend it on decreasing headways for buses? Sure, but is that going to foster much redevelopment? I don't believe so.

Keep in mind, this is not a lone strategy for helping to rejuvenate this part of the north side, there are other strategies at play, the light rail expansion just happens to be the most publicized at the moment.

Last edited by Six Corners; Mar 1, 2024 at 7:27 PM.
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Old Posted Mar 1, 2024, 7:26 PM
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I agree with everything you said, but this. There are still A LOT of intact blocks throughout North St. Louis. Most of the extreme blight is mostly concentrated on the near northside. Even some of the areas that have blight commercial corridors, still have relatively intact residential blocks. What sucks the most is when people make blanket statements about communities and people they don't even know. Like people will say stupid stuff like blow up the Southside of Chicago, not realizing that there are people that love their communities, warts and all, and will never relocate. The idea that St. Louis, Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, etc. will ever go to zero population is absolute nonsense. When I lived in St. Louis, I knew people from the wealthiest areas in the region to the poorest and in most of them were good people and wanted the same thing.
You're right. I said North St. Louis when what I meant was the general Jeff-Vander-Lou area. It's not devoid of life, certainly, and never will be, but the other part of what I was getting at is that its rejuvenation will require a lot of infill that I have to imagine will resemble areas like The Gate, Carr Square, or the southwest part of Forest Park Southeast more than what was built in the neighborhood originally.
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Old Posted Mar 1, 2024, 7:39 PM
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Most of the funding is coming from federal funding sources. So it's not a matter of if this is the appropriate area for spending that amount of money right now, it's a matter of either spending this money on light rail, or at the very least some kind of transit, or it gets spent in an entirely different region instead and risking the window for such funding closes in the future. Could they spend it on decreasing headways for buses? Sure, but is that going to foster much redevelopment? I don't believe so.

Keep in mind, this is not a lone strategy for helping to rejuvenate this part of the north side, there are other strategies at play, the light rail expansion just happens to be the most publicized at the moment.
To be clear, my comment about whether or not it's an appropriate area for spending was directed toward whoever happened to be doing the spending. I didn't mean to imply the comment was specific to lower levels of government like the city or county who often don't make all the funding decisions.
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  #16  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2024, 3:51 PM
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Most of the funding is coming from federal funding sources.
Apparently some of the local money is coming from the NFL lawsuit payout.
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