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  #341  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2021, 9:17 PM
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^Scratch the above...

Okay, so apparently the Record of Decision from 2017 does say that the chosen Alt 3b will in fact be 4 single-track tunnels. I am assuming here that Amtrak and MARC would get two tunnels and freight would get the others. The freight tunnels are being built to allow double-stack trains and what they are calling "future trains"... that may or not mean a tunnel diameter big enough to accommodate double-stack cargo trains with overhead wires. To be honest the public information at least online is a little wishy washy about what is the passenger train project and what is the other freight element and whether the 4 and a half billion dollar price tag is for the completion of all of it or not. I believe I read something that said the freight tunnels are not moving forward right now, so honestly I don't know what to think. Maybe Reese Martin or Alan Fisher has a video on this...

If anyone on here knows a lot more about this please chime in... Cirrus?
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  #342  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2021, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
If anyone on here knows a lot more about this please chime in... Cirrus?
I asked because I do not know. There's just too much conflicting information from what's available online. The EIS is written to allow 4 single track tunnels, but that does not mean they have the cash to build all four now. On the bright side, if they could find the cash in Biden's infrastructure projects, now or later, the EIS is done. All that would be left to do later is design and build the extra tunnels.
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  #343  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2021, 1:06 AM
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According to WaPo from a few days ago, there will initially be 2 single track tunnels built, with the other two tunnels coming if and when there is funding available.

From the way the article reads, the first two tunnels will be for passenger use, with the freights continuing to use the old tunnels.

I can recall when alternatives were still being discussed, the State of Maryland pushed for freight tunnels that could accommodate double stacks, in hopes of making the Port of Baltimore more competitive. Apparently not a priority right now.

Quote:
washingtonpost.com

A 148-year-old tunnel is the biggest rail bottleneck between D.C. and New Jersey. Here’s the new plan to replace it.

Luz Lazo

The proposal is a scaled-down version of a plan approved four years ago by the Federal Railroad Administration that called for four single-track tunnel tubes. Railroad officials say by building only two tunnels, the project will save $1 billion and up to two years on construction while still tripling train capacity to accommodate future demand. The additional two tunnels could be built in a second phase as funding becomes available, Amtrak said.

The proposal is dependent upon Amtrak securing federal and state funding. Amtrak has budgeted $65 million for design and preconstruction work in the next year, including negotiations to acquire more than three dozen properties, including 22 residential buildings, 13 businesses and four churches that would be demolished.

The passenger railroad also is seeking $257 million for the tunnel project this year from Congress.

-----------------------------------

Amtrak on Friday also announced it will name the new tunnel after Maryland native and abolitionist Frederick Douglass, who was enslaved in Baltimore, where he learned to read and write before fleeing on a train to escape slavery. The old tunnel, which freight trains will continue to use, will keep its name.

----------------------------------

Under the Amtrak plan, it would take between 10 to 12 years to complete the tunnel if federal funds are made available. Amtrak’s timeline includes utility relocation and demolition next year, with excavation and more heavy construction in 2023.

Officials said construction is complicated by delicate crossover work with the operational railroad, as well as softening curves to allow for higher speeds. About 30,000 jobs would be created during construction.

The new route would stretch the two single-track tunnel tubes nearly four miles between Baltimore’s Penn Station and Gwynns Falls Bridge. The West Baltimore MARC station would be relocated. The project includes a high-capacity signal system that would allow trains to be spaced closer together and interlocking changes that would facilitate faster speeds out of Penn Station.

-----------------------------

The tunnel would only carry trains on electric power. Maryland officials said the state agreed to electrify all MARC trains by the time the tunnel would open in as early as 2032. MARC trains now run on diesel.

---------------------------

Baltimore officials said they are working with Amtrak to address residents’ concerns, but added that the city is onboard with the new plan, which they say will bring economic and transportation benefits. Amtrak has committed $50 million to invest in West Baltimore for parks and in creating economic and job-training opportunities.
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  #344  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2021, 1:11 AM
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10 to 12 years? Wtf? What is this an Alps base tunnel?
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  #345  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2021, 1:14 AM
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At least the full MARC electrification is good news I hadnt heard about yet.
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  #346  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2021, 4:58 AM
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^ That is indeed big news as MARC very emphatically gave up on electric traction a few years ago. I think the reasoning at the time was that Amtrak was charging them a king's ransom for electricity.

Glad to hear they have found a way forward. Utterly insane to be running diesel under wires in 2021 when we're staring down the barrel of a worldwide climate crisis.

Interesting question is whether they will go for electric locos (ACS-64 or similar) or make the jump to EMUs (Silverliners or Stadler KISS, etc).
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  #347  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2021, 12:14 PM
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Following up on the discussion on the previous page, it looks like there is funding for a study of restoring passenger rail to the mountain west.

Montana’s passenger rail authority poised for boost from Tester transportation amendment

By Martin Kidston
Missoula Current
June 23, 2021

"A measured tucked into this year’s Surface Transportation Investment Act could add momentum to a statewide effort to restore passenger rail to Montana’s vast southern tier, as well as other routes across the rural West.

Sen. Jon Tester last week added an amendment to the act providing $15 million to study the restoration of long-distance passenger rail routes that have been discontinued.

More specifically, the amendment includes language that puts former routes in the rural West, including the North Coast Hiawatha across southern Montana and the Pioneer route, which once connect Salt Lake City to Seattle, at the front of those studies..."

https://missoulacurrent.com/business...ail-amendment/
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  #348  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2021, 1:25 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong but this tunnel is the reason why the auto train can't start in New Jersey, directly opposite NYC.

Still waiting on SNL to post that circa-1980 Dan Aykroyd Auto Train lounge singer skit.
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  #349  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2021, 1:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Interesting question is whether they will go for electric locos (ACS-64 or similar) or make the jump to EMUs (Silverliners or Stadler KISS, etc).
Another round of brand new Silverliners in this country would be so embarrassing. I'm still recovering from Denver's decision the buy them.

MARC still has a lot of older mixed equipment, so unless they got a huge funding boost to replace coaches, I would image they would go the electric loco and slowly replace coach fleet route. They already are using bi-levels like NJTransit's so they would likely continue in that direction. As much as I'd like to see EMU ops, the Penn Line reaches speeds of 125mph, and I don't think most EMU's are really designed for that speed. The TOP speed of a Stadler KISS is 124mph, and that's pretty much the best bi-level EMU out there.
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Last edited by Busy Bee; Jun 24, 2021 at 1:43 PM.
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  #350  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2021, 2:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but this tunnel is the reason why the auto train can't start in New Jersey, directly opposite NYC.

Still waiting on SNL to post that circa-1980 Dan Aykroyd Auto Train lounge singer skit.
Probably
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  #351  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2021, 2:39 PM
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It's technically possible to run EMUs at high speeds, the Hitachi trains in the UK are good examples. Hell, every high speed trainset is an EMU, Hitachi just has ones specifically intended for commuter service.

But Hitachi will most certainly not be Buy America-compliant - they don't set up token manufacturing overseas, which is why they generally don't compete for tenders in the US. They even refused to do manufacturing in the UK, which is a much bigger train market than the US.
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  #352  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2021, 3:18 PM
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Right, I'm not talking AGV here, just what you think of as being a blunt-nosed bi-level EMU.
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  #353  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2021, 7:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
But Hitachi will most certainly not be Buy America-compliant - they don't set up token manufacturing overseas, which is why they generally don't compete for tenders in the US. They even refused to do manufacturing in the UK, which is a much bigger train market than the US.
I'd imagine Hitachi's Newton Aycliffe factory, which does final assembly as well as some welding and painting on the Class 800 series trains qualifies as token manufacturing.
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  #354  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2021, 1:32 AM
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Nothing new, just further clarification from an Amtrak press release:

Quote:
All MARC Penn Line and Amtrak trains will use the new Frederick Douglass Tunnel. MDOT and Amtrak have agreed on a phased implementation approach, where the initial implementation will include two new high-capacity tunnel tubes for electrified passenger trains but defer the construction of two additional tunnel tubes that could be designed to accommodate freight trains in the future. To enable this new plan, Gregory Slater, Maryland Secretary of Transportation, announced that MDOT will electrify its MARC commuter trains through the new Frederick Douglass Tunnel.
Just thinking out loud here, I'm wondering if they are at least considering just building the new modern tunnels for the NEC passenger trains but refurbishing the old existing B&P tunnel after it is vacated for freight only use. Also curious if the height of rail for the old tunnel could be lowered enough to allow double-stacks.
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  #355  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2021, 4:22 AM
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I dunno about refurbishing being part of the plan, but the old tunnel will continue to see the occasional 1x-daily freight as the new tunnels won't have the ventilation for diesel equipment. After removing passenger traffic from the old tunnel it will certainly be easier and less costly to refurbish it, if they want to do so in the future. I would argue it should be refurbished for passenger traffic so there is a true 4-track corridor thru Baltimore at a lesser cost than a new 3rd/4th bore.

The idea that these tunnels would ever see significant freight movement is a pipe dream and was included only with the hope that it would help drive container traffic at the port. It's a Frank Sobotka fantasy. I think the idea of significant freight movement was addressed with the enlarging of the Charles St tunnel, so hopefully the idea of double stacks through the B&P will fade away.
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  #356  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2021, 4:16 AM
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The Minnesota legislature last week funded the missing piece to Amtrak's 2nd daily round trip train between Chicago and St. Paul (Wisconsin and the feds having already committed their shares).

If I recall correctly, the track upgrades that will be done as part of the project should shave about 20 minutes off of the scheduled time for both the Empire Builder and the new route. I'm interested to see what the new route is branded as-- whether it might use either the existing Hiawatha or Empire Builder names, or if they'll come up with something new.

​https://www.startribune.com/2nd-daily-st-paul-to-chicago-amtrak-train-expected-in-2024/600073144/​​​
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  #357  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2021, 10:36 AM
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Why do they keep the trains so cold? I’m riding the Amtrak for the first time ever and freezing my ass off. I didn’t realize I would need a blanket in the middle of the summer.
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  #358  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2021, 2:18 AM
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Why do they keep the trains so cold? I’m riding the Amtrak for the first time ever and freezing my ass off. I didn’t realize I would need a blanket in the middle of the summer.
How hot, how sunny, and how humid was it outside the train? Amtrak's trains are enclosed with stainless steel and lots of glass that would heat up to oven like temperatures on a sunny hot day. You could fry eggs on their roofs if the weather conditions were right. So the air conditioning system is pretty robust if allowed to run all the time.
I'm usually cold only at night on Amtrak trains after the sun sets. Let's assume the air conditioning turns off at night, and does not turn back on until the sun rises. It could take hours for the air conditioning system to cool the train back down once the stainless steel heats up. Then you would be complaining it is too hot.
For a cycling system to keep inside temperatures constant with huge swings in heat loads, the system would have to be twice as powerful than with small swings in heat loads. The key to keeping the heat load swings small is to over cool the train at night so that it can keep the train cool during the day. That's why. While there may be 20 thermostats, one for every room and roomette on a sleeper car, there are not 20 different air conditioning systems. There is no economical way to have all 20 rooms and roomettes in a car to actually have individual controls.

Once I got on a bus going to Las Vegas from Los Angeles, the driver announced before leaving the bus stop that the bus will be cold before reaching the desert, but once the bus got to the desert the bus would get warm. Reason, heat loads are different in different locations, and the bus system is balanced. They did not install too large a system for the desert, but that same system was too large a system for the oceanside.
Amtrak runs trains all across the country with different weather conditions that changes with the seasons. It is practically impossible to design a system to work economically nationally.
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  #359  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2021, 12:31 PM
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Steven Rattner shills for the auto industry:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/01/o...gtype=Homepage

Rattner was on Obama's "Team Auto" that devised the Cash-For-Clunkers program and so on. I read his book on the subject about 10 years ago. He's one of those guys who likes to present an air of everyman curiosity when really it's all about him.
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  #360  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2021, 1:21 PM
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^ That's dissapointing
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