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  #7361  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 3:02 PM
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I wouldn't say it's elegant, but it's OK.

I wouldn't mind seeing more development of the HSC campus on the streets surrounding the hospital itself.
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  #7362  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 3:42 PM
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Yeah, locating in the suburbs won't slow Payworks down. The real baffling case is a company like Bold locating in the suburbs. That would disqualify them for me as either a prospective employee or client.
100% agree. That’s actually who I thought we were talking about. Ha ha. Oops.

It is mind boggling.
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  #7363  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 3:45 PM
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No one is forcing them they choose to work there and I bet most probably prefer working there then in downtown with the current abysmal shape its in and the terrible bus shack situation
When a company chooses to locate its offices on the fringe of the city, it forces their employees to drive. I work downtown and about 1/3 of the people in my office use alternate modes of transportation. All walk when they go for lunch. If my office was where this one is, that wouldn’t be the case.
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  #7364  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 4:51 PM
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Until the pandemic I would have never really considered a job with a suburban location but at this point it doesn't make much of a difference to me anymore. I'd be fine with the Payworks location. Obviously it would present certain inconveniences (nothing to walk to so getting to meetings, running errands, getting lunch, etc. would be more of a hassle), but on the other hand there would be certain benefits too (cheap/free parking, reduced commuting times vs. downtown so more time for other things).

I'm with Winnipegger on this one, office functions are already pretty heavily concentrated downtown. I don't think it's a huge deal if a few companies establish offices in the suburbs. If we start seeing actual office towers going up in suburbia then maybe we'll know things are going too far.
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  #7365  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 5:36 PM
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Tuxedo office park is several towers worth of office space.

Reduced commuting time for you because you live near it would be significantly increased commuting time for others who would be driving across the entire city. And again. Everyone’s only option is driving to work and to everything else. Imagine living in the Maples and working there. That 80km round trip commute with no other options but driving your car would quickly overshadow the cost of parking or the inconvenience of seeing people sleeping in bus shelters.

A central location is more convenient for everyone, including those coming for meetings. I had a consultant in the tuxedo park once and it was the worst to get to them for meetings. It meant I had to drive 15 kms to and from meetings and I had to drive to work on those days. Taking the bus to them would have been impossible. All my other consultants are downtown and I walk between them.

People will eventually be back in their offices.

Last edited by trueviking; Jun 11, 2022 at 6:19 PM.
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  #7366  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 6:41 PM
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^ 45 km return trip from Leila North School to Altea Active, 34 minute drive as of right now. Commutes to and from downtown are pretty bad when heading south because so many of the routes exiting downtown are so choked. Most of the time is spent just getting out of the central city... I used to live in Riverview and moved to just south of Bishop Grandin and the commuting times barely increased because 90% of the time was getting up to Morley Ave. After that it hardly takes any time at all to get to St. Vital.

The point being that I don't think the location would be that bad for Payworks employees who drive, or live close enough to walk. The ones who live far away and have to take the bus are probably screwed, though, but chances are there probably aren't many people taking the bus to Payworks' current location from Westwood or North Kildonan anyway.
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  #7367  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 7:17 PM
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I’m not sure I buy the argument that’s it’s a short easy drive from the maples to Bridgwater but I’ll remind people of that when Payeorks employees complain that they want a 3/4 billion dollar expansion of Kenaston. I’ve heard it’s much worse than anything downtown.


Again. That is my point. For those who drive it’s just more driving. Of course I hear a lot of people complaining about the cost of gas and how much they hate the traffic during their commute and this will only exacerbate that, but if they don’t care. Ok. The fact still remains everyone will be forced to drive. 1/3 of downtown office workers do not drive. The financial burden on employees, the environmental burden on the world, the economic impact on taxpayers supporting that increased infrastructure are all important issues.

If my office moved to Bridgwater it would be a very significant cost of living increase for me personally and a significant quality of life downgrade. It would cost me thousands of dollars a year more to work there and I would be cranky having to drive through kenaston twice a day.
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  #7368  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 7:29 PM
Winnipegger Winnipegger is offline
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The future of office work, from both an employee-morale and environment perspective, is hybrid working-from-home arrangements, full stop. None of this "suburbs versus downtown" debate is necessary anymore. It's better for the environment, it's better for the economy, it's better for the employee, it's better for the employer, and it's better for the taxpayer to have employees work from the place they live when possible.

People can get together in smaller flex-spaces when they need to meet in person, but the idea that white-collar work needs drones sitting in front of a computer 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and wasting time commuting to a central location every single day (regardless of mode) is officially outdated.

Sure, some minority of people prefer the in-person interaction every day, or burning cash buying "artisanal" sandwiches at lunch time at the local eatery, but the vast majority of people I know have much preferred the extra 1 to 2 hours per day they've reclaimed from not having to commute, and money and stress saved from not paying for gas/parking/deprecation/bus pass.
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  #7369  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Winnipegger View Post
The future of office work, from both an employee-morale and environment perspective, is hybrid working-from-home arrangements, full stop. None of this "suburbs versus downtown" debate is necessary anymore. It's better for the environment, it's better for the economy, it's better for the employee, it's better for the employer, and it's better for the taxpayer to have employees work from the place they live when possible.

People can get together in smaller flex-spaces when they need to meet in person, but the idea that white-collar work needs drones sitting in front of a computer 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and wasting time commuting to a central location every single day (regardless of mode) is officially outdated.

Sure, some minority of people prefer the in-person interaction every day, or burning cash buying "artisanal" sandwiches at lunch time at the local eatery, but the vast majority of people I know have much preferred the extra 1 to 2 hours per day they've reclaimed from not having to commute, and money and stress saved from not paying for gas/parking/deprecation/bus pass.
Agreed it is much better for myself since I have done it too and the mix is the happy medium for me where at times i like the social interactions at the office but the reduced stress not commuting means a lot to me for quality of life and I find the hybrid model the best one for health and productivity.
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  #7370  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
If my office moved to Bridgwater it would be a very significant cost of living increase for me personally and a significant quality of life downgrade. It would cost me thousands of dollars a year more to work there and I would be cranky having to drive through kenaston twice a day.
Well sure, most of the long-term people at your office have probably structured their lives around working downtown. Moving to the outer suburbs would be considered a disruption and rightly so.

In much the same way, people working at Payworks are probably fine with the current Waverly location... it's reasonably convenient. Moving down farther south would probably not be a major hassle except for the people for whom it's already a hassle, e.g. someone in West Kildonan who takes the bus. I suppose it will get worse for some of those folks. But surely Payworks must know their workforce, they wouldn't do it if it would annoy or inconvenience significant numbers of staff.
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  #7371  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 8:40 PM
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The Kenaston commute is a nightmare, and the expansion to a 6 lane shows no sign of happening any time soon, and when it starts, it will be 5 years plus until it’s completed. So 10-15 years before we can “enjoy” it, meanwhile, traffic will continue to exponentially increase during the time in between, and the city will do absolutely zero maintenance on it except that which is utterly necessary, knowing it will “soon” be totally rebuilt from the dirt up. So unless one lives in the south end, the commute will be worth quitting for honestly.
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  #7372  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by WinCitySparky View Post
The Kenaston commute is a nightmare, and the expansion to a 6 lane shows no sign of happening any time soon, and when it starts, it will be 5 years plus until it’s completed. So 10-15 years before we can “enjoy” it, meanwhile, traffic will continue to exponentially increase during the time in between, and the city will do absolutely zero maintenance on it except that which is utterly necessary, knowing it will “soon” be totally rebuilt from the dirt up. So unless one lives in the south end, the commute will be worth quitting for honestly.
I work by the airport and take the perimeter home every time as do many others I work with because kenaston is so pathetically slow
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  #7373  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2022, 9:08 PM
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I have to giggle at you complainers. Try a large city and see what a commute is.
Majority of Payworks employees are from the south end of city. So that would actually be less impact on the environment.

Now for my company which I own. I have to drive everywhere in this city and all the bedroom communities. If you learn the traffic routines of the city you can get anywhere fairly easy. Even rush hour. Of course there are bottlenecks like Osborne Village etc. But there's always a route around it.

As for extra costs for driving to work....yikes you office workers drive to work and back. Life changing event. A few extra thousand dollars in costs ? I spent $13000 in fuel last year. This year I'm sure with these prices it will be $26000. I am trying to drive less this year but I'm not crying that it's the end of the world.

As someone said about people living beyond their means. Gas and fuel are up $1 over last year. That's not life ending. But when some people I work for go from per say a $300 K Windsor Park home to a $850k Bridgewater home and still have the same job. I don't feel sorry at all for them. Neither do I feel sorry when I see a new Range Rover in the driveway.

And I understand my business requires driving both to work and on site. But if I was one of you folks with an office downtown. I'd definitely love downtown or along the RT line. Btw that RT line bike path is amazing, until you get to Osborne. But I definitely enjoy coming home and jumping on my bike and going for a 25-35km ride. So I am all for the bike lanes ( proper ones ).

Either way this city isn't that bad for traffic. I suggest if you feel it's bad try heading into Minneapolis of heading out during rush hour. That's almost like half a day's work just stuck on the interstate in bumper to bumper traffic.

Better yet try Vancouver. Try even Victoria.

As for office's downtown. If that's true that we are 70% office's downtown, then I'm floored and happy with that. I am with you with not want a bunch of offices in the burbs like you'd see in Minneapolis. But the odd little one like Payworks which already was in the burbs doesn't bother me.
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  #7374  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2022, 12:59 AM
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Why would the majority of the 400 people who will work in this building live in the south end of the city? I bet a small percentage do actually. There’s nothing unique about this company that would skew where its employees live. They have jobs everywhere from janitors, maintenance people, summer students, security guards, and receptionists to IT people, accountants and managers.

And I’m not comparing this really shitty site with their somewhat less shitty sites. I’m comparing it to downtown.

Every single person who works here will drive. They are building 400 parking stalls for 400 people. Right off the bat that’s 30% more people driving than in a typical downtown office.

This site is so terrible it’s even a half hour walk to the stupid Towne Centre. Everyone will need to drive for literally everything. You need a stamp for a letter? Get in your car.

For fun I calculated what it would cost me to work here. This is assuming that I already own a car and don’t need to buy one because I would be forced to drive to my job by my employer’s choice of office location.

Kilometres driven per year: 9,800
Fuel cost: $2,040.
Vehicle maintenance: $1000
Vehicle depreciation: $1800
Alll-purpose insurance: $400
Total: $5,240

I currently spend about $500 per year for commuting transportation. (Bike/bus/drive)

So almost $5,000 per year of after tax income would go to my commute costs.

They are burdening the 30% of their staff who would not drive if the office was downtown with that cost. Maybe $4,000 if you assume a monthly transit pass for $1,200 per year. That’s a fixed cost no matter what your salary is, and it’s likely that lower wage earners are disproportionately represented in that 30%.

My bet would be their parking won’t be free either. They are going to have to pay for that parkade somehow.

(I used a driving cost calculator and assumed 9,800 kms would account for about 2/3 of the total cost of driving per year.)

Last edited by trueviking; Jun 12, 2022 at 1:22 AM.
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  #7375  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2022, 10:10 AM
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I have to giggle at you complainers. Try a large city and see what a commute is.
Majority of Payworks employees are from the south end of city. So that would actually be less impact on the environment.

Now for my company which I own. I have to drive everywhere in this city and all the bedroom communities. If you learn the traffic routines of the city you can get anywhere fairly easy. Even rush hour. Of course there are bottlenecks like Osborne Village etc. But there's always a route around it.

As for extra costs for driving to work....yikes you office workers drive to work and back. Life changing event. A few extra thousand dollars in costs ? I spent $13000 in fuel last year. This year I'm sure with these prices it will be $26000. I am trying to drive less this year but I'm not crying that it's the end of the world.

As someone said about people living beyond their means. Gas and fuel are up $1 over last year. That's not life ending. But when some people I work for go from per say a $300 K Windsor Park home to a $850k Bridgewater home and still have the same job. I don't feel sorry at all for them. Neither do I feel sorry when I see a new Range Rover in the driveway.

And I understand my business requires driving both to work and on site. But if I was one of you folks with an office downtown. I'd definitely love downtown or along the RT line. Btw that RT line bike path is amazing, until you get to Osborne. But I definitely enjoy coming home and jumping on my bike and going for a 25-35km ride. So I am all for the bike lanes ( proper ones ).

Either way this city isn't that bad for traffic. I suggest if you feel it's bad try heading into Minneapolis of heading out during rush hour. That's almost like half a day's work just stuck on the interstate in bumper to bumper traffic.

Better yet try Vancouver. Try even Victoria.

As for office's downtown. If that's true that we are 70% office's downtown, then I'm floored and happy with that. I am with you with not want a bunch of offices in the burbs like you'd see in Minneapolis. But the odd little one like Payworks which already was in the burbs doesn't bother me.
Not disagreeing with anything but just want to point out re: Victoria (cause I commute the city daily)

Victoria has nothing on the worst traffic in Winnipeg. Highway 1 is prob the worst to/from Langford to/from victoria and even that is a shorter distance than around Winnipeg. Douglas is two lanes. Traffic lights break up the flow and keep things moving. Blanchard which is the busiest road is smaller than portage ave and has significantly less traffic movements.

And langford’s not the same city. Victoria itself is very small and many commutes can be done via bike if you wanted. To get around the city is a good 10 to 15 mins tops. To get around Winnipeg can take an hour depending on the route.

Winnipeg does have some bad traffic areas but the fact there’s is no central highway that everything goes through is a saving grace for the city. If Winnipeg had that I think traffic would be much worse. It’s still a relatively large (by Canadian standards) metro and bedroom community commuting region, and the population growth is outpacing the infrastructure. The area has grown by ~100k between 2010-2020 and that’s a lot more cars on the road. That number alone is 25-30% of the greater victoria regions entire population lol

The multiple paths in Winnipeg makes traversing the city more creative during traffic heavy areas. Bad crash and traffic jam on portage? You can figure a way around. Can’t do that on Deerfoot or Anthony henday if you’re stuck in just the right area. But the flip side is the uncreative majority plus bottleneck small lane roads are still barriers to free flowing traffic, and it can make commutes in Winnipeg longer than they otherwise could be

Larger cities are larger and have more traffic. Winnipeg def won’t have anything on Minneapolis or Vancouver. But those cities have nothing on LA or London, and so on and so forth

Last edited by roccerfeller; Jun 13, 2022 at 10:24 AM.
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  #7376  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2022, 1:59 PM
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^ It's nice that Winnipeg doesn't have highways cutting through neighbourhoods but on the other hand, it's hard not to envy cities with roads that have decent traffic capacity funneling traffic out of downtown at rush hour.

I guess if you are going north or west you can take advantage of fairly good stroads that are kind of an adequate substitute for highways (Portage, Main, Disraeli/Henderson), but if you are heading east or south then you are stuck in stop and go traffic on city streets for the most part. I mean, imagine if Minneapolis didn't have I-35W heading south and all that traffic had to pile onto local streets... that's basically Winnipeg's scenario.

Even in Saskatoon you have southbound traffic leaving downtown on Idylwyld Dr. and 2 minutes later those cars are going 90 km/h. Same with the aforementioned Victoria example, Highway 1 exceeds anything we have in this entire province. Meanwhile, heading south from downtown Winnipeg at rush hour means that you will probably need 10 minutes just to leave downtown... on a good day.

I guess if we had a good RT substitute then that would be a fair trade-off, but as it stands we basically have neither. A couple of stroads, one BRT line, and then just normal city streets that turn into major commuting routes at rush hour and get choked as a result.
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  #7377  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2022, 6:18 PM
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It’s a bit comical listening to Winnipegers with perimeter-itus complaining about having to drive 15kms across the city lol. How on earth does everyone living outside the city do it!
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  #7378  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2022, 4:14 AM
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Mennonite Central Committee building was sold at the end of Plaza Drive. I would imagine a who's who of residential developers lined up to bid for this lot. I hope the existing residents in the low-rise buildings next door don't get their panties too knotted up over the potential of something substantial going up there.
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  #7379  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2022, 12:58 PM
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Mennonite Central Committee building was sold at the end of Plaza Drive. I would imagine a who's who of residential developers lined up to bid for this lot. I hope the existing residents in the low-rise buildings next door don't get their panties too knotted up over the potential of something substantial going up there.
Yea that's an area prime for redevelopment into a nice multi-story residential.
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  #7380  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2022, 11:31 PM
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I often wonder how well a mall like St. Vital Centre would have done if it were placed instead at Plaza and Pembina other than where it is. Probably would be doing a lot better being able to profit more directly off the U of M, etc.
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