Which city would you declare as the US cultural capital if there is one?

[Docere]

NYC seems like the obvious answer to me: it's home to the most influential newspaper, the major media networks, it's the leading center for publishing, it has the nation's most art museums and galleries, it's the leading center for music, theater and so on.

L.A. has Hollywood, but even television is a joint NYC/LA enterprise.

[Docere]

Is this supposed to be long-term, or is it more of a "what's a good candidate for this year's designated cultural capital type question?

[Quixote]

Film/cinema is still very much mostly an LA enterprise, while television is split between NYC, LA, DC, and Atlanta (mostly broadcast news and the headquarters of various cable TV channels). ABC is actually headquartered in Burbank (the television production arm), while the broadcast news division is based in NYC.

The “big three” talent agencies CAA, UTA, and Endeavor are all based in LA though and represent actors, musicians, broadcast journalists, athletes, writers, etc. Annie Leibovitz is with CAA, Anderson Cooper with UTA, Amy Schumer with Endeavor. LA still does most of the heavy lifting when it comes to creative content and production (except publishing and theater) but less presentation/delivery. Netflix may be based in the Bay Area, but it employs more at its LA office than its headquarters in Los Gatos. Amazon Prime Video is Seattle-based, but Amazon Studios are headquartered in Culver City. Everything starts with content and the people that can supply it.

[edale]

Originally Posted by Docere

Is this supposed to be long-term, or is it more of a "what's a good candidate for this year's designated cultural capital type question?

Now that's a much more interesting topic, imo.

[Docere]

Vesprem, Hungary; Elefsina, Greece; and Timisoara, Romania are this year's European Capitals of Culture.

https://culture.ec.europa.eu/news/th...lture-for-2023

[Illithid Dude]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Same goes for fashion.

The Los Angeles fashion scene is on the ascent, just as the NY fashion scene is in a decline. However, both scenes pale in comparison to the European fashion scene, which has maintained its prestige.

[ocman]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Eh, somewhat. NYC is birthplace of not just American but global hip-hop and street culture, and it was birthed by people born and raised in NYC and the immediate burbs. The entire sound system era was from NYC, by NYC. Abstract Impressionism is one of America's most important contributions to 20th century visual arts, and it was born in NYC, birthed by a long list of native New Yorkers like Kooning and Alston. Basquiat, Keith Haring. Pretty much everyone on the list not named Andy Warhol. Modern musical theater was born in NYC, birthed by natives like Gershwin and Sondheim.

I'd imagine a much larger percentage of NYC's cultural output, both historical and contemporary, comes from native born New Yorkers than LA's output comes from native Angelenos.

Street culture ,especially in terms of fashion, was brought to the hypebeast level, and as a genre of fashion, in NYC that we know today, but Los Angeles natives, because of skateboard and surf culture, had a pretty significant hand in the origins of streewear. Stussy, in Orange County, is credited as really being the very first streetwear brand, which sprouted from socal surf-culture, and skateboard culture was birthed in LA in an area coined Dogtown. Today, streetwear is a hybrid of hip-hop originating on the east coast mixed with both surfing culture and skateboard culture that originated with LA suburban youth. Surfing culture (though surfing wasn’t invented in LA) and skateboard culture are pretty significant influences LA had on youth culture and fashion.

But I’d argue on the first point that it’s never the natives that really matter. And it didn’t matter than NY’s art scene had native artists. A city’s cultural influence is almost always driven the most by outsiders who come to a city. Like Paris being the center of the art world had little to do with native Parisians but by outside artists who flocked to work in Paris because they sensed the city would give them that opportunity to make a name.

[ocman]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Kate Spade and Tory Burch.

But your point stands. RL's Purple Label and Collection both sit well into lux, with price points at or above Burberry's and on par with LV/Dior's. Other than these two labels, I cannot think of a single American full-lineup apparel brand with a true lux footprint.

Polo? CK? RLX? Premium labels. Tommy? Barely premium, more on par with Lacoste. DKNY plummeted after it left LVMH and started G-III and is now squarely premium.

I'll give you Tumi for lux, but obviously this isn't a full apparel brand. Ditto for Estee Lauder, with a real portfolio of lux beauty (even if Jo Malone is from London). And Tiffany. I guess there is some good category American lux.

But other than Purple Label/Collection, no true lux full-lineup labels.

Also, scratch Tom Ford. Just found out right now he sold the brand to Estee Lauder and is leaving. Estee Lauder isn’t exactly Perry Ellis Inc., but this just says everything about the US’s inability to be a major playor in high fashion. (Tom Ford said in interviews he was trying to create a true luxury brand on the level of the European houses).

[ocman]

Originally Posted by edale

Now that's a much more interesting topic, imo.

That is a more interesting question. Late 90s-20?? would have belonged to the Bay Area, which transformed our reality by way of Silicon Valley. I’m taking the current question as being of the now.

[Segun]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Eh, somewhat. NYC is birthplace of not just American but global hip-hop and street culture, and it was birthed by people born and raised in NYC and the immediate burbs. The entire sound system era was from NYC, by NYC. Abstract Impressionism is one of America's most important contributions to 20th century visual arts, and it was born in NYC, birthed by a long list of native New Yorkers like Kooning and Alston. Basquiat, Keith Haring. Pretty much everyone on the list not named Andy Warhol. Modern musical theater was born in NYC, birthed by natives like Gershwin and Sondheim.

I'd imagine a much larger percentage of NYC's cultural output, both historical and contemporary, comes from native born New Yorkers than LA's output comes from native Angelenos.

Hip Hop is large enough to nickname an entire musical generation "The Hip Hop generation. Even though artists are found in every region and NYC is on somewhat of a lull right now in comparison to LA, Chicago, and ATL, every artist that raps considers NYC sacred ground for Hip Hop. The gatekeepers of the culture (Magazines, Major radio/podcasts, and legends/mentors) are mostly still in NYC. Most modern music outside of Hip Hop even references Hip Hop in some way. It is statistically the most listened to genre worldwide also. Hip Hop slang and fashion has found its way to the corporate world, politics and in the modern English vernacular. That's a big one.

Still, if you were to give a percentage of the stake of NYC in modern culture in the US, it would be a small percentage, and getting smaller. I'd say the same for every city. The dwindling influence of network TV and Radio has give risen to an ever growing variety of content and choices from all around the country and the World. Your average viewer may spend more time watching a content creator on Youtube than the movies or TV. What's culture nowadays? Is it just fashion, music, the arts? What about products, stores? Is Wal-Mart culture? Is TJ Maxx culture? Is Drake larger than McDonalds or Chic-Fil-A?

Also, there's DC. Politics is it's own culture, and ever since Obama and Trump, it seems to have taken a bigger prominence in our news and current events, and in our conversations and concerns. (Especially our concerns, as today, claiming allegiance to the right or left politically is something people are willing to kill and die for.)

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Such an odd choice of cities to make this point.

Why?

Put aside the fact that Kyoto was (and technically still is) the Imperial Seat of Japan, with a few early breaks in nearby Nara, since 794 AD.

For the last 1,000+ years, Kyoto has dictated Japanese culture. Whether we're talking about food, dialect, performance arts, fashion, or good old fashioned government dictates, it all started and still starts in Kyoto.

What's the cool dialect of Japanese which politicians, comedians, TV hosts, and idol stars all try to slip into, whether they're from the area or not? Kansai-ben, especially the Kamigata accent of Kyoto. Kanto-ben, the "standard" Japanese you hear in language classes in the US and Canada, comes across as a mild Midwestern accent does to someone from the coasts: a little on the nasal side, and not very cool.

Where do the majority of Japan's wealthiest families with hundreds of years of prestige and establishment connections come from? Kyoto and Osaka. The Mori clan (Mori Construction), the entire Zaibatsu system of horizontally-integrated conglomerates (Mitsui, Mitsubishi, Yasuda, and Sumitomo - the last of which was started in Kyoto in 1615!) are Kyoto-Osaka creations. The whole Meiji Restoration, resulting from the Satsuma-Choshu Clan Alliance, started in the Kyoto hinterlands and was formalized in Kyoto. Tokyo didn't want to see the Emperor restored, as the Shogun's seat of power was Edo (Toyko). In a conservative culture like Japan, establishment families wield considerable power and influence, especially in politics.

Shijo-dori is the center of Japanese fashion. The stuff that kids start wearing here moves to America-mura in Osaka after a month or so and then gets aped by Harajuku and Shimokita shops. By the time a style is on the floor in Shibuya, it's passe in Kyoto.

Global Zen Buddhism is centered at Kennin-ji in Kyoto. It's the center of everything for Japanese practitioners.

As a final piece of evidence, I'll just say this: Nintendo (Kyoto). Way cooler than Sony (Tokyo).

Tokyo is the country's capital and largest city by a good margin . . . but for such a large place, not many people who live here are actually from here. They just moved here for the work opportunities. They leave for family holidays. The place is eerily empty on New Years and during the summer Obon holidays. But it's is still the global-facing city of Japan, and it's still where finance and media decisions are made. If you look at the breakdown of corporate HQs, Kyoto-Osaka is where the majority of domestic-focused firms operate out of, whereas Tokyo is where most global-facing firms are located.

Tokyo is Japan's brains, Kyoto is Japan's heart, and Osaka is Japan's stomach.

I don't want to type out a similar write-up for Paris and Rio, but my thinking is along the same lines for these cities: cultural norms disseminating from them are outsized compared to their shares of total population.

[ocman]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Nobody’s disputing that, nor is it to say that NYFW will die. It’s just to say that although NYC is one of the “big four” fashion capitals of the world, it really doesn’t produce or have an association with “high fashion” (haute couture) like Paris and Milan do. As a result, NYFW is more for industry folks and social gathering than people eager to see the latest collections from names they care about (there are a few exceptions).

The two labels most readily associated with NYC are Calvin Klein and Donna Karan, whose heydays were both in the 90s. Today, there’s not one flagship Calvin Klein or Donna Karan boutique, not even in Manhattan. Marc Jacobs, Tom Ford, Vera Wang, and maybe Oscar de la Renta are the only true high-end labels (IMO) out of NYC with widespread name recognition. But Marc Jacobs lives/shows in Paris, Tom Ford happily resides in LA (and his recent collections reflect that), and Vera Wang is largely known for bridal gowns.

The Met Gala is arguably a bigger deal than NYFW because it’s more about who’s been invited and shock value. In a sense, the awards season circuit in LA is less a spectacle and more about actual “high fashion,” who looked best and who should’ve done xyz differently and why, etc. It’s more than a bit ironic.

I’m shocked that Calvin Klein closed all of their boutiques especially the one on Madison Ave. I remember seeing them in a prized location just a few years ago in South Coast Plaza in the wing that houses Fendi, Max Mara and Armani, and across from Harry Winston. And they were still a strong presence at the Oscars just recently in 2019.


One point to make in LA’s cultural influence on lifestyle/fashion is in the trending of athleisurewear across the country. This no doubt begin with Hollywood’s obsession with Juicy Couture and the greenjuice, yoga lifestyle. You can debate the merits or the cringe, but that’s probably the most influential fashion “movement” today among women that likely originated in LA.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Segun

Hip Hop is large enough to nickname an entire musical generation "The Hip Hop generation. Even though artists are found in every region and NYC is on somewhat of a lull right now in comparison to LA, Chicago, and ATL, every artist that raps considers NYC sacred ground for Hip Hop. The gatekeepers of the culture (Magazines, Major radio/podcasts, and legends/mentors) are mostly still in NYC. Most modern music outside of Hip Hop even references Hip Hop in some way. It is statistically the most listened to genre worldwide also. Hip Hop slang and fashion has found its way to the corporate world, politics and in the modern English vernacular. That's a big one.

Segun, have you ever seen Hip-Hop Evolution on Netflix? I think it's the best docuseries Netflix has ever made. I learned so much from it. The focus is heavily on New York for the first few episodes, but it then branches out into the contributions made by LA and the Bay, Atlanta, New Orleans and Memphis, Chicago, and Miami. I cannot recommend it enough if you haven't seen it.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by ocman

Also, scratch Tom Ford. Just found out right now he sold the brand to Estee Lauder and is leaving. Estee Lauder isn’t exactly Perry Ellis Inc., but this just says everything about the US’s inability to be a major playor in high fashion. (Tom Ford said in interviews he was trying to create a true luxury brand on the level of the European houses).

x1000. It speaks volumes that Estee Lauder's most valuable label is a British perfume and scented candle brand.

[Segun]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Segun, have you ever seen Hip-Hop Evolution on Netflix? I think it's the best docuseries Netflix has ever made. I learned so much from it. The focus is heavily on New York for the first few episodes, but it then branches out into the contributions made by LA and the Bay, Atlanta, New Orleans and Memphis, Chicago, and Miami. I cannot recommend it enough if you haven't seen it.

I've seen it, it's pretty thorough. Great show!

[e40]

LA no question. NYC just doesn't set trends anymore.

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by ocman

But I’d argue on the first point that it’s never the natives that really matter. And it didn’t matter than NY’s art scene had native artists. A city’s cultural influence is almost always driven the most by outsiders who come to a city. Like Paris being the center of the art world had little to do with native Parisians but by outside artists who flocked to work in Paris because they sensed the city would give them that opportunity to make a name.

Sure, very little to do with native Parisians except for Monet, Manet, Suerat, Degas, Gauguin, and Rodin. Not to mention, Pissarro and Renoir who moved to Paris as children.

Paris’ relative art dominance probably declined once that generation of Parisians and their protégés were gone from this world and outsiders took over.

I’d argue that the natives are the most important for generating unique ideas, although outsiders are most adept at popularizing them.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Segun

It is statistically the most listened to genre worldwide also. Hip Hop slang and fashion has found its way to the corporate world,

That's because rappers were selling out to clothing/shoe companies from the very beginning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_haNmB_Lns

There was no equivalent to that in rock music, because if you started selling shoes, your fans would abandon you. In fact, they'd abandon your band if it was sensed that you caved to a producer (like simply recorded a cover that they suggested) or you let the record company tell you what clothes to wear. Any sort of serious acting on TV or movies was completely prohibited.

The record companies abandoned rock & roll around 2008 because with declining record sales they only supported sell-outs, and rap is a sell-out genre. I mean, goddamn 50 Cent is on The View.

[twinpeaks]

In general, California, with SF and LA seem to have major influence in the way we live, work and play.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude

The Los Angeles fashion scene is on the ascent, just as the NY fashion scene is in a decline. However, both scenes pale in comparison to the European fashion scene, which has maintained its prestige.

I don't know if it's in decline so much as it has lost its allure. NY fashion really had its moment in the 90s when the zeitgeist was more urban and gritty and the favored aesthetic more muted and baggy. It has never been about refinement or craft IMO. To that extent, it's not unlike LA capturing the 00s with designer denim and Juicy Couture tracksuits. The main difference between NY and LA is that NY has created at least a half dozen well-known labels that have had staying power. For me, that's where the "prestige" lies.

Otherwise, throngs of Asian and European tourists aren't lining up (literally) outside Ralph Lauren and Coach like they do for Chanel and Louis Vuitton on the Champs-Élysées, which is what I saw when I was there in February. (Western) Europeans also strike me as being less label-conscious but still have more refined tastes that aren't satisfied by cheaper NY brands both in terms of style and quality.

IMO, Tokyo is just as much an actual "fashion city" as NYC. Not only do people there dress better on average, but you have much cooler names like Yohji Yamamoto and Comme des Garçons (I'm biased, as those are two of my favorites) that marry exceptional craft with streetwear style.