Your city's Jewish community

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

In Detroit, the more affluent Jewish-WASP Northwest Side underwent racial change much earlier than the very working class white ethnic East Side. There were still majority white East Side Detroit neighborhoods into the early 2000's, while Northwest Detroit was almost entirely majority black by about 1980.

Or Cleveland, which was deemed a "city without Jews" in the early 1960s.

https://teachingcleveland.org/clevel...-vincent-1962/

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Crawford

My sense is that Jewish white flight preceded general white ethnic flight. It was definitely the case in NYC, where places like Canarsie and Bensonhurst lost Jews long before racial change. Italians and other white ethnics stayed on. I believe some of the movement was due to postwar upward mobility and community focus on top-tier education outcomes.

In Detroit, the more affluent Jewish-WASP Northwest Side underwent racial change much earlier than the very working class white ethnic East Side. There were still majority white East Side Detroit neighborhoods into the early 2000's, while Northwest Detroit was almost entirely majority black by about 1980.

Interesting. My view is a bit limited because there aren’t nearly as many ethnic white gentiles in LA as back east. A key theme seems to be that ethnic gentile white gentile areas are more “resilient” or at diversify to some degree before the ethnic white gentiles leave in large numbers.

Bensonhurst was once predominantly Italian, but it’s now a pretty diverse mix of Italian, Chinese, Eastern European, and Middle Eastern populations. It’s still 15% Italian, which is still a large share (and larger than the share at the metro level), especially for a dense and racially diverse community of over 100,000. If blacks, not Asians, were the plurality though, it’d probably be a different picture. I think it also helps that the diversification began with ethnic white immigrants.

[Quixote]

WASPs in LA are by and large the legacy of domestic migrants from the rural Great Plains and fringe Midwest-South, hence LA being a conservative city for most of the 20th century). It never received fresh-off-the-boat (literally) masses of German, Irish, Mediterranean, and Eastern European immigrants who at various points in history established communities and lived next to each other for decades and decades (but still didn’t intermix until fairly recently).

I think because of these local roots along with being witness to constant cultural change (demographic and otherwise) that’s concomitant with living in urban milieus, whites back east are more “conditioned” to “tolerate” diversification, although they still have their “limits.” That’s why you’re less likely to see places like Boyle Heights / East LA that are over 90% Mexican or San Marino, which is now two-thirds Asian (mostly Chinese and Taiwanese) but is not “ethnic” like Monterey Park or even Arcadia are. San Marino is a legacy, establishment town, unlike Cupertino which has roughly the same percentage of Asians (also mostly Chinese).

[edale]

Originally Posted by Quixote

WASPs in LA are by and large the legacy of domestic migrants from the rural Great Plains and fringe Midwest-South, hence LA being a conservative city for most of the 20th century). It never received fresh-off-the-boat (literally) masses of German, Irish, Mediterranean, and Eastern European immigrants who at various points in history established communities and lived next to each other for decades and decades (but still didn’t intermix until fairly recently).

I think because of these local roots along with being witness to constant cultural change (demographic and otherwise) that’s concomitant with living in urban milieus, whites back east are more “conditioned” to “tolerate” diversification, although they still have their “limits.” That’s why you’re less likely to see places like Boyle Heights / East LA that are over 90% Mexican or San Marino, which is now two-thirds Asian (mostly Chinese and Taiwanese) but is not “ethnic” like Monterey Park or even Arcadia are. San Marino is a legacy, establishment town, unlike Cupertino which has roughly the same percentage of Asians (also mostly Chinese).

I don't really understand what you're saying with this comment. White flight was most acutely felt in cities on the East Coast and Midwest, and white ethnic neighborhoods were some of the least tolerant toward new groups entering 'their' neighborhoods. Poles in Chicago and Irish in Boston both were vehemently anti-black, and fought hard against efforts to integrate neighborhoods and schools.

I also don't know what you mean when you say a place like Boyle Heights isn't 'ethnic'. It seems to be a pretty classic, long standing ethnic (Mexican) neighborhood, with a good mix of first and second gen immigrants + Mexican Americans who've lived in the US for a while.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by softee

Holy blast from the past! My commentary skills have improved quite a bit since I recorded this. I'll have to go back to the neighbourhood and do an updated walk.

Great work!

[Docere]

Population per square mile:

Forest Hill-Cedarvale 16,697
Bathurst-Lawrence 13,181
Bathurst-Sheppard 10,949

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by edale

I don't really understand what you're saying with this comment. White flight was most acutely felt in cities on the East Coast and Midwest, and white ethnic neighborhoods were some of the least tolerant toward new groups entering 'their' neighborhoods. Poles in Chicago and Irish in Boston both were vehemently anti-black, and fought hard against efforts to integrate neighborhoods and schools.

I also don't know what you mean when you say a place like Boyle Heights isn't 'ethnic'. It seems to be a pretty classic, long standing ethnic (Mexican) neighborhood, with a good mix of first and second gen immigrants + Mexican Americans who've lived in the US for a while.

Black people, particularly African Americans, moving in isn’t the same as Asian immigrants entering en masse, hence my comment about Bensonhurst. But Asian immigrants managed to “overtake” San Marino, a historically WASP old-money suburban enclave, even though there are no overt signs that it has an Asian supermajority — supermarkets, restaurants, and bakeries (what I meant by “ethnic,” wasn’t referring to Boyle Heights / East LA). It’s strictly a rich neighborhood where the ethnic Chinese live but “express” their ethnicity in neighboring communities.

Boyle Heights was originally a mix of Jewish, Japanese, Mexican, and other white ethnic groups; today it’s 95% Latino. You don’t see those extremes in communities back east. Even in places like Roxbury, Boston or The Bronx where black and Latino comprise a supermajority, the white population is still around 8-9% of the population as opposed to, say, 2%.

[edale]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Black people, particularly African Americans, moving in isn’t the same as Asian immigrants entering en masse, hence my comment about Bensonhurst. But Asian immigrants managed to “overtake” San Marino, a historically WASP old-money suburban enclave, even though there are no overt signs that it has an Asian supermajority — supermarkets, restaurants, and bakeries (what I meant by “ethnic,” wasn’t referring to Boyle Heights / East LA). It’s strictly a rich neighborhood where the ethnic Chinese live but “express” their ethnicity in neighboring communities.

Isn't San Marino almost entirely residential, though? The only retail I'm aware of there is a small cluster along Huntington Dr. I don't think there are any supermarkets in SM. There are a handful of Asian restaurants, though.

Originally Posted by Quixote

Boyle Heights was originally a mix of Jewish, Japanese, Mexican, and other white ethnic groups; today it’s 95% Latino. You don’t see those extremes in communities back east. Even in places like Roxbury, Boston or The Bronx where black and Latino comprise a supermajority, the white population is still around 8-9% of the population as opposed to, say, 2%.

Still not sure about this. I'm pretty sure there are places on the East Coast that are similarly homogenously minority neighborhoods that were once white. If 'back east' can include the Midwest, I'd say damn near the whole city of Detroit and the basically all of the east side of Cleveland would count...

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Black people, particularly African Americans, moving in isn’t the same as Asian immigrants entering en masse, hence my comment about Bensonhurst.

True, but the Jews left Bensonhurst long before the Chinese arrived. I suspect Bensonhurst was majority Jewish in the postwar years, with an Italian minority. I don't think Italians eclipsed Jews until the 1970's. Jews were probably there from the beginning. The Three Stooges were from Bensonhurst. There are some old synogogues and Jewish centers that look older than the typical housing stock. The Catholic churches mostly look postwar.

Chinese started arriving in Bensonhurst in the 1990's. It's a fairly recent transition. Even in the early 2000's, Bensonhurst felt like a Little Italy with some Chinese people. Some of the retail corridors still feel a bit like that.

I'd guess that Jews left Bensonhurst bc they were upwardly mobile and were (in their view) moving "up" to leafy suburban locales with high performing schools. At the time, Brooklyn was where grandma lived, and suburbia was cool.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Interesting that all of the very Jewish neighborhoods you listed on the previous page are in Old Toronto (or immediately adjacent to it) and straddle two main corridors (Yonge and Bathurst), but that there is also a delineation between WASP and Jewish.

Yup, you have 35%+ Jewish neighborhoods west of Avenue Road, while traditionally WASP neighborhoods closer to Yonge are maybe around 10% Jewish.

Even in the city-designated area of "Lawrence Park South" (an amalgamation of North Toronto neighborhoods), which is 16% Jewish, is comprised of two census tracts west of Avenue Rd. that are around 35% Jewish (the Allenby neighborhood, which borders Forest Hill), while the three tracts to the east are all under 10%.

BTW this page www.censusmapper.ca allows you to look at all sorts of data at the Census Tract and dissemination area levels.

Are there places in North America where there's not just a numerically equal balance of Jews and gentiles but also full integration like Italian/Irish with German/English in some parts of the Northeast?

Maybe in the NYC area, where there's very few WASPs?

Does Scarsdale, for example, have more Italian Americans or WASPs? It's obviously very Jewish-dominated, probably 40-50%.

[Crawford]

The Jewish favored quarter-adjacent pattern is pretty common. Definitely in Philly, Detroit, Chicago, and Cleveland. Nowadays less relevant as money and education sort secular households, but still a thing. Growing up in Detroit's favored quarter there were almost no Jews east of Telegraph Rd in the Bloomfield-Birmingham area. The Woodward corridor was WASPy, and Jews and Chaldeans lived west of Telegraph.

Even today, all the synagogues and Jewish country/social clubs are west of Telegraph. Same goes for the only Chaldean country club. And there still are very few Jews in upscale east-of-Telegraph places like Bloomfield Village.

[Docere]

Forest Hill Village was an independent municipality until 1967 and developed as an upper-class suburb. Initially it was mostly WASP, but was already attracting wealthy Jews in the 1930s. Holy Blossom Temple, Canada's most prestigious Reform congregation, moved to the area in 1938. After WWII, it became predominantly Jewish as Toronto Jews moved up Bathurst St. from the Spadina-Kensington area.

There was a sociological study of Forest Hill in the 1950s, Crestwood Heights, a lot of which was focused on Jewish-Gentile relations.

[Docere]

[double post]

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by edale

Isn't San Marino almost entirely residential, though? The only retail I'm aware of there is a small cluster along Huntington Dr. I don't think there are any supermarkets in SM. There are a handful of Asian restaurants, though.

That's the point. It's nearly all residential. It looks like a classic affluent suburb from the 1930s-50s. South Pasadena has maintained its white plurality at around 39%, and I think it's because most of the affluent Chinese live in the Altos section, while the much-whiter Marengo District is certainly the legacy old money quarter.

Regarding dining establishments in San Marino, there's a Noodle World and a New Moon, both of which are small local chains, as well as one Japanese and one Taiwanese restaurant. No hole-in-the-wall joints, bakeries, or boba shops.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Asian immigrants, even those that are wealthy, tend not to settle in affluent Jewish areas (unless there’s also a large WASP contingent, which means that it’s not really a “Jewish area”… see Palo Alto).

Is Palo Alto particularly Jewish by Bay Area standards? The Bay Area doesn't seem to have any Jewish areas or suburbs AFAIK. I suspect the Jewish population is closely related to where affluent whites live, I don't know of more WASP-leaning as opposed to Jewish-leaning suburbs (in contrast to L.A.)

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by Docere

Population per square mile:

Forest Hill-Cedarvale 16,697
Bathurst-Lawrence 13,181
Bathurst-Sheppard 10,949

I was pleasantly surprised to see there are still a lot of old stock Toronto ashkenazi jewish households when I was assigned to work in York Mills around Old Yonge Street (between Lord Seaton Rd, Upper Highland Cres and especially towards Old Yonge Street) What was even more suprising , was based off of mezuzahs & also the names on the customer accounts, the ashkenazi households outnumbered anglo gentile, italian, greek, east asian & even Persian (a mix of gentile baha'i, shia, and mizrahi jewish) households . It kind of ran contrary to the narrative that most of the olde stock jews in York Mills ended up leaving to go north to thornhill & west to the bathurst corridor.

Of course, this was only one small slice of York Mills I was assigned to.

[mrnyc]

ahh, life back in the good old regular folks, blue collar, jewish, heart of cleveland days ...

as told by harvey pekar and r. crumb ...

[Docere]

As for Toronto, the Jewish areas have not become heavily Asian for the most part. But that's largely pretty much every Jewish area has not ceased to be Jewish - the Jewish map has expanded, but Jews did not abandon older neighborhoods in Forest Hill and North York. There's a Jewish presence in Forest Hill going back to the 1930s and 1940s, and the Bathurst-Lawrence area has been Jewish since it was first built up in the 1950s. Forest Hill, then and now was the "establishmentarian" Jewish neighborhood (largely Reform and Conservative), while Bathurst-Lawrence (chronicled by softee) has become Orthodox-dominated.* The Bathurst-Sheppard area is sort of an exception, it's less Jewish than it used to be, but still quite Jewish (largely Russian Jews). Lots of Jewish institutions remain in the area, and most elected officials in that area are Jewish, reflecting their previous dominance of the area.

So in other words, you have a Jewish character up Bathurst from St. Clair Avenue all the way through Thornhill (12 miles).

One area where there is some Jewish to Asian shifting is the Bayview-York Mills area. This is on the northeastern edge of the favored quarter, developed after WWII. For a generation of Jewish doctors and successful businessmen, it was a step up from Bathurst Manor or Bathurst-Lawrence. But it was a secondary concentration, and more of a mixed WASP-Jewish area and never had an Orthodox presence. It's much more low density suburban than Bathurst - fewer apartments, less street life. It resembles a rich US suburb, while the Bathurst Corridor is perhaps more of an urban/suburban hybrid.


Interesting to contrast Bathurst and Bayview:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/La...g%2F11gd_vf0m_

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7479...7i16384!8i8192


* It seems like a lot of semi-suburban interwar and early postwar Jewish neighborhoods have gone Orthodox (thinking of Cleveland Heights or West Rogers Park in Chicago for example).

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Docere

As for Toronto, the Jewish areas have not become heavily Asian for the most part. But that's largely pretty much every Jewish area has not ceased to be Jewish - the Jewish map has expanded, but Jews did not abandon older neighborhoods in Forest Hill and North York. There's a Jewish presence in Forest Hill going back to the 1930s and 1940s, and the Bathurst-Lawrence area has been Jewish since it was first built up in the 1950s. Forest Hill, then and now was the "establishmentarian" Jewish neighborhood (largely Reform and Conservative), while Bathurst-Lawrence (chronicled by softee) has become Orthodox-dominated.* The Bathurst-Sheppard area is sort of an exception, it's less Jewish than it used to be, but still quite Jewish (largely Russian Jews). Lots of Jewish institutions remain in the area, and most elected officials in that area are Jewish, reflecting their previous dominance of the area.

So in other words, you have a Jewish character up Bathurst from St. Clair Avenue all the way through Thornhill (12 miles).

One area where there is some Jewish to Asian shifting is the Bayview-York Mills area. This is on the northeastern edge of the favored quarter, developed after WWII. For a generation of Jewish doctors and successful businessmen, it was a step up from Bathurst Manor or Bathurst-Lawrence. But it was a secondary concentration, and more of a mixed WASP-Jewish area and never had an Orthodox presence. It's much more low density suburban than Bathurst - fewer apartments, less street life. It resembles a rich US suburb, while the Bathurst Corridor is perhaps more of an urban/suburban hybrid.


Interesting to contrast Bathurst and Bayview:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/La...g%2F11gd_vf0m_

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7479...7i16384!8i8192


* It seems like a lot of semi-suburban interwar and early postwar Jewish neighborhoods have gone Orthodox (thinking of Cleveland Heights or West Rogers Park in Chicago for example).

^ yes for cle -- although like university hts, not cle hts. via fairly recent putin pogroms i believe. although the immigrants followed some precedent. ie., i know several orthodox here in nyc who grew up in cle well before.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

* It seems like a lot of semi-suburban interwar and early postwar Jewish neighborhoods have gone Orthodox (thinking of Cleveland Heights or West Rogers Park in Chicago for example).

Teaneck, NJ, Kew Garden Hills and Hillcrest, Queens, Five Towns and West Hempstead, LI. Interwar or immediate postwar Jewish concentrations that have shifted Orthodox.