Your favorite small urban cities in North America?

[Docere]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Hey guys,

I thought it would be interesting to have a discussion about some of the better small urban cities in North America. To help set up the discussion, I'd add the following qualifiers:

Small: Under 150,000 people in city.

Urban: High level of walkability throughout city. This means cities which have a cute historic downtown area but are basically suburban otherwise wouldn't count, unless they were so small that everyone was a 15-20 minute walk or less from the downtown. In...erm...larger small cities, there should ideally be more than a single walkable business district. In terms of built vernacular, bonus points come from denser housing than detached SFH.

City: Obviously it needs to be incorporated. However, I'd also add the caveat that smaller cities which form part of a cohesive urbanized area don't count. Hence you cannot really bring up somewhere like Somerville, Miami Beach, or Santa Monica. The city needs to stand on its own as a regional hub for the surrounding area essentially.

There are of course the obvious ones I'm sure people will bring up, like Savannah, Portland ME, and Burlington. One that has always stuck out to me however is Lancaster PA, which I think in a lot of respects is the perfect small city. It has a large commercial core, with a vibrant restaurant scene, and a public market right downtown. While the city really lacks secondary business districts, nowhere is more than a 30-minute walk from the urban core, with corner stores and the like peppered throughout. The city is nice and flat, making for easy biking, and you can take the train into Philly if you want, making a car unnecessary. The built vernacular is basically all rowhouses all the way out to city limits, meaning there's a high level of urbanity. It also - at the moment at least - has a nice balance in terms of development. It's not super sanitized/gentrified like a lot of smaller cities, with a lot of working-class neighborhoods and an increasing Latino population. At the same time, the city never really experienced any urban blight to speak of, and it's broadly safe. Thus there's lots of affordable ($100k-$250k) homes in livable neighborhoods.

Anyway, I'd be curious to hear thoughts from others.

What's the "minimum" population for a city to even have a "downtown"?

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Docere

What's the "minimum" population for a city to even have a "downtown"?

I guess it depends upon what you mean by a downtown. If you just mean a few blocks of a "Main Street" which serve as a downtown having a population of a few thousand (back around 1900) is probably enough. I mean Jim Thorpe has a population of less than 5,000 (and it was smaller back before the two former boroughs consolidated in the 1950s) and it looks like this.


The alternative meaning sometimes used in the U.S. - the depopulated area in the city core with the tall buildings and office jobs - the number of small cities which have this is much smaller. However, very few of these areas, even in big cities, are anything approaching vibrant.

[JManc]

'Downtown' is usually where city hall, court building, etc are regardless of size.

[Don't Be That Guy]

Originally Posted by craigs

I'll never forget the first time I saw Harrisburg--it seemed to just show up out of nowhere on my drive eastbound on the 76. It looked like a city five times its size.

Harrisburg has great bones, and is in better shape than it's been in decades. But, wow, if every state office building and parking garage built since 1960 isn't some of the shittiest architecture out there.

Allentown has a nice downtown and a good urban fabric, but Lancaster is probably the nicest small city in PA. I'm sure the tourist trade has helped it maintain some affluence that other city's like Altoona, Scrantan, and Bethlehem, etc lost during deindustrialization.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy

Harrisburg has great bones, and is in better shape than it's been in decades. But, wow, if every state office building and parking garage built since 1960 isn't some of the shittiest architecture out there.

Allentown has a nice downtown and a good urban fabric, but Lancaster is probably the nicest small city in PA. I'm sure the tourist trade has helped it maintain some affluence that other city's like Altoona, Scrantan, and Bethlehem, etc lost during deindustrialization.

My in-laws typically travel out to the Lancaster area every few years (and sometimes take my kids) but weirdly never go into Lancaster itself.

I mean, I know they're old, and not city folks, but they're also not the typical terrified suburbanites either.

[edale]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I guess it depends upon what you mean by a downtown. If you just mean a few blocks of a "Main Street" which serve as a downtown having a population of a few thousand (back around 1900) is probably enough. I mean Jim Thorpe has a population of less than 5,000 (and it was smaller back before the two former boroughs consolidated in the 1950s) and it looks like this.


The alternative meaning sometimes used in the U.S. - the depopulated area in the city core with the tall buildings and office jobs - the number of small cities which have this is much smaller. However, very few of these areas, even in big cities, are anything approaching vibrant.

...there's a city named Jim Thorpe? LOL what the hell is that about. It looks like a beautiful little town, but what a name.

[Crawford]

I've been near Jim Thorpe countless times, but never stopped to take a look. Definitely will visit one of these weekends.

Looks pretty unique in the North American context. Also doesn't look gentrified to oblivion.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by edale

...there's a city named Jim Thorpe? LOL what the hell is that about. It looks like a beautiful little town, but what a name.

It was renamed from Mauch Chunk in 1954. Jim Thorpe had no real connection to the town at all, but when he died the borough (which was hard up for tourist revenue) made a deal with his widow where they'd bury him, build him a memorial, and rename the town in his honor.

Originally Posted by Crawford

I've been near Jim Thorpe countless times, but never stopped to take a look. Definitely will visit one of these weekends.

Looks pretty unique in the North American context. Also doesn't look gentrified to oblivion.

It's a cool little town, though really the urban part is limited to Broadway and a handful of side streets (like Race Street, which has an awesome stone row). Most of the locals live in more undistinguished neighborhoods up the hill or across the river.

Basically, Jim Thorpe had a lot of 19th century development because it served as a sort of nexus point for the railroads in the area which served the anthracite coal fields. It developed considerably better architecture than the neighboring towns in part because it was where many of the NEPA coal barons chose to live. It also served as a popular rural getaway for the Philadelphia wealthy. At one point it had the most millionaires per capita in the U.S.

The comeback of the town is in part credited to preservation efforts spearheaded by Robert Venturi in the mid 20th century. Now it's mostly known for historical architecture and outdoor recreation.

You can actually still buy a house right on the main drag for less than $200,000.

[Docere]

Pennsylvania seems to push above its weight in this regard.

[KDD]

Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy

Harrisburg has great bones, and is in better shape than it's been in decades. But, wow, if every state office building and parking garage built since 1960 isn't some of the shittiest architecture out there.

Allentown has a nice downtown and a good urban fabric, but Lancaster is probably the nicest small city in PA. I'm sure the tourist trade has helped it maintain some affluence that other city's like Altoona, Scrantan, and Bethlehem, etc lost during deindustrialization.

The amount of new construction in Allentown over the last 10 years is astounding (well not really when you consider what a give away the Neighborhood Improvement Zone, "the NIZ" is). But what is even more remarkable is how ugly it all is. Born and raised in Allentown, I feel okay calling it all ugly.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by eschaton

up the hill

If you turn around the camera... is that a confederate flag?

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

If you turn around the camera... is that a confederate flag?

Appears to be. Flying Confederate flags isn't illegal and used to be more common than now I imagine. I probably wouldn't fly one myself now because it's inviting vandalism aside from all the other reasons for and against, but remember that Google Streetview images are usually a couple of years old--before it was such an issue.

I've got a Welsh flag--green/white with a red dragon--I used to fly when all my neighbors fly American ones. That's not claiming my little house as Welsh territory. I'm probably the only one in the 'hood that has served a full career in the military and their hyperpatriotism annoys me.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by eschaton

It was renamed from Mauch Chunk in 1954. Jim Thorpe had no real connection to the town at all, but when he died the borough (which was hard up for tourist revenue) made a deal with his widow where they'd bury him, build him a memorial, and rename the town in his honor.




It's a cool little town, though really the urban part is limited to Broadway and a handful of side streets (like Race Street, which has an awesome stone row). Most of the locals live in more undistinguished neighborhoods up the hill or across the river.

Basically, Jim Thorpe had a lot of 19th century development because it served as a sort of nexus point for the railroads in the area which served the anthracite coal fields. It developed considerably better architecture than the neighboring towns in part because it was where many of the NEPA coal barons chose to live. It also served as a popular rural getaway for the Philadelphia wealthy. At one point it had the most millionaires per capita in the U.S.

The comeback of the town is in part credited to preservation efforts spearheaded by Robert Venturi in the mid 20th century. Now it's mostly known historical architecture and outdoor recreation.

You can actually still buy a house right on the main drag for less than $200,000.

Funny & true (?) story about Jim Thorpe. When he won a track event at the 1912 Stockholm Olympics, he was presented the gold medal by the King of Sweden. Thorpe supposedly said "Thanks King!" and all hell broke lose with the royal protocol types. But I bet King Gustof just got a good chuckle out of it. Swedish kings aren't that self important anymore.

[Centropolis]

i typically see confederate flags flown in the most desperate of circumstances. occasionally you’ll see one on a nice truck but usually its a pathetic situation.

definite major uptick after obama was elected...it was anachronistic and in a long decline before then...also saw an increase in areas that had no claim to the south, like illinois, and just read as white-supremacist totems.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

If you turn around the camera... is that a confederate flag?

In Pennsylvania, lol. Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west, and Alabama in the middle.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by KDD

The amount of new construction in Allentown over the last 10 years is astounding (well not really when you consider what a give away the Neighborhood Improvement Zone, "the NIZ" is). But what is even more remarkable is how ugly it all is. Born and raised in Allentown, I feel okay calling it all ugly.

The NIZ-related development only exists because of the increase in population, and resulting economic impact, due to NY/NJ/Philly transplants. Allentown is an interesting case in urban studies right now. Haven't been there in a few years... will have to make a stop pretty soon to see the construction.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

In Pennsylvania, lol. Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west, and Alabama in the middle.

Yeah... but that's really an unbelievably generalized, inaccurate, and tired quote from a goofy Cajun, snake-looking guy who knows zero about PA. Though it is kinda funny.

First, the whole "Alabama in the middle" and "Pennsyltucky" etc. descriptors are dumb. It's the other way around. Pennsylvania is not like Alabama or Kentucky... Alabama and Kentucky are like Pennsylvania. Fathers don't take after their sons. Pennsylvania is largely rural... farmland and mountains. It's always been this way. Pennsylvania is arguably THE Appalachian state, given the expanse of the region running right through it.

Second, just like pretty much anywhere else, the "divide" is urban-rural. The other cities throughout Pennsylvania are solidly blue. The rural areas solidly red. Just like most everywhere.

Third, you see confederate flags within Pittsburgh city limits, to say nothing of the stars and bars flags and truck decals you'll see displayed in the surrounding area. Pittsburgh is Appalachian and the "urban redneck" phenomena has been alive and well here since the Scots-Irish settled in the hills and hollers centuries ago.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Second, just like pretty much anywhere else, the "divide" is urban-rural. The other cities throughout Pennsylvania are solidly blue. The rural areas solidly red. Just like most everywhere.

I'd agree with this, but PA does seem to be a bit of an outlier in that it leans somewhat more conservative/populist. It's a purple, battleground state, and the rural areas are hard right, yes, not unlike rural areas almost everywhere, but it seems even a bit more extreme there. I mean, rural Vermont doesn't have the same populist or white nationalist tinge. PA has a slightly different mix than the other NE corridor states.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Third, you see confederate flags within Pittsburgh city limits, to say nothing of the stars and bars flags and truck decals you'll see displayed in the surrounding area. Pittsburgh is Appalachian and the "urban redneck" phenomena has been alive and well here since the Scots-Irish settled in the hills and hollers centuries ago.

That's not surprising. Pittsburgh is the capital of Appalachia.

[Truenorth00]

Burlington, VT

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'd agree with this, but PA does seem to be a bit of an outlier in that it leans somewhat more conservative/populist. It's a purple, battleground state, and the rural areas are hard right, yes, not unlike rural areas almost everywhere, but it seems even a bit more extreme there. I mean, rural Vermont doesn't have the same populist or white nationalist tinge. PA has a slightly different mix than the other NE corridor states.

Yes, I agree. You can find similarities with rural New York state and north central PA, but it's not as extreme as in PA. NY had the Erie Canal and the sizable cities and towns that popped up along it. PA never attempted to cross its more extreme topography into its hinterlands... so there is definitely more isolation in PA. New York is quite simply, more "northern". And across the southern border of PA, Confederate sympathy was a big thing during the civil war (and obviously might still be ).

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That's not surprising. Pittsburgh is the capital of Appalachia.

Yep. Pittsburgh is a weird place. Just because of the topography and resulting separation of neighborhoods, you'll have highly liberal urban enclaves of all income levels featuring blocks of stately mansions or rowhouses... and within literally a hundred yards or so down or up the hill, you'll find yourself in what appears to be rural West Virginia with crumbling houses, junked cars, strewn garbage, and of course, proudly-displayed Confederate and Trump flags.