Why is São Paulo seemingly a non-event outside of Brazil?

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Qubert

People in the business world probably know it's a decent place. The problem is many people wrongly assume the cartel crisis is concentrated in the cities (it's not, rural areas are far far more dangerous) coupled with the fact that Mexico for most is a place they go for a beach vacay more than anything else.

It's like folks thinking Spain consists of Mallorca, Ibiza, Barcelona and the Canary Islands. Madrid is completely underrated as a destination (I was just there 2 weeks ago)

Madrid is okay, but it's not the most interesting city in Spain to me. I think it's worth visiting, but if I were recommending to a first time visitor to Spain where to spend their limited amount time, it would be Barcelona without question.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think historical "seeding" also plays into it. Rio de Janeiro was the capital of Brazil for almost 400 years and was also the biggest city in the country within living memory of a lot of people.

Stuff like that leaves a lasting impression in the global consciousness.

Exactly. Till 1870's, Rio de Janeiro was 8x larger than São Paulo. It was the capital till 1960 and the biggest city till the 1960's, biggest financial center till the 1980's.

In that sense, in no way Rio overshadows São Paulo: it's the contrary: SP took away everything Rio had, and even the last strongholds of Rio, lifestyle and culture in general, SP took the lead.

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

I'd argue that SP also has a much higher profile in the NA gay community than elsewhere).

Regarding LGBT tourism only, São Paulo has plenty of recognition worldwide. It's seen as a gay mecca. But gay tourism is a niche, even amongst gay people.

And domestically, of course, LGBT people love it. I know people that come here every single weekend.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Why? I don't know much about it, but isn't it the same kind of appeal New York or Tokyo have? By virtue of being a big city with all the stuff attached to it?

Yeah, but most of the recent hype around Mexico City revolves around a narrative that its this artsy bohemian mecca for remote work, which is odd. Almost like a bigger Berlin. It's still a third-world city, with all kinds of challenges. I really like the city, but still wouldn't move my family there unless I was a fugitive or something.

IMO, Americans pick really weird places in Mexico. They love San Miguel, and basically ruined the town, which wasn't that great to begin with, and ignore nearby Guanajuato, which is like 100x better. They go crazy for Cancun, which is just a 1970's govt. project to put hotels on artitifical beaches on the crappy Gulf. Really cool Pacific beaches in Ixtapa-Zihuatanego and tons of unspoiled beach towns in Oaxaca and Chiapas are ignored. Now Mexico City is the New Berlin, when there's basically one neighborhood with that feel, and most of Mexico City is endless functional 1970's concrete blocks and quasi-freeways.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Cancun, which is just a 1970's govt. project to put hotels on artitifical beaches on the crappy Gulf.

if cancun's beach is artificial, they did a spectacular job with it. i never would've guessed that.

and i'd never call the irridescent turquoise waters of the caribbean "crappy", but to each their own.


source: https://www.traveloffpath.com/over-7...h-aerial-view/


i totally agree that cancun feels like a very "made-up" place (ie. not a real city), but i get the appeal it has for americans just looking for a warm weather beach to escape to in the cold seaon.

and for those travelers looking for something more "real", at least the nearby yucatan is filled with loads of mayan ruins that do offer something of real experiential substance.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, but most of the recent hype around Mexico City revolves around a narrative that its this artsy bohemian mecca for remote work, which is odd. Almost like a bigger Berlin. It's still a third-world city, with all kinds of challenges. I really like the city, but still wouldn't move my family there unless I was a fugitive or something.

IMO, Americans pick really weird places in Mexico. They love San Miguel, and basically ruined the town, which wasn't that great to begin with, and ignore nearby Guanajuato, which is like 100x better. They go crazy for Cancun, which is just a 1970's govt. project to put hotels on artitifical beaches on the crappy Gulf. Really cool Pacific beaches in Ixtapa-Zihuatanego and tons of unspoiled beach towns in Oaxaca and Chiapas are ignored. Now Mexico City is the New Berlin, when there's basically one neighborhood with that feel, and most of Mexico City is endless functional 1970's concrete blocks and quasi-freeways.

That's odd. I might be very wrong, but I see Mexico as a more conventional place, a bit like Chile, and not something akin to Berlin.

For some reason, many Brazilians love Cancun and more recently, Punta Cana. Those kind of places has zero appeal to me. In Mexico, I guess I'd like to visit Mexico City only, but it's not my priority.

[Yuri]

Back to São Paulo, it's a great city for anyone enjoying urban living. You get everything you want. It's unlimited.

Regarding tourism, I'd definitely recommend for anyone here in SSP, even for people who are not habitual tourists. Outside the SSP bubble, I wouldn't tell a person to take a 12-hour flight just to come here. Never. If the person has 10-15 days in Brazil, than yes, maybe a weekend here would be nice.

Now if the person wants/needs to move to Brazil, then hands down: I'd strongly recommend São Paulo over any other city. It's extremely easy for foreigners to adapt for so many reasons.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Yuri

That's odd. I might be very wrong, but I see Mexico as a more conventional place, a bit like Chile, and not something akin to Berlin.

For some reason, many Brazilians love Cancun and more recently, Punta Cana. Those kind of places has zero appeal to me. In Mexico, I guess I'd like to visit Mexico City only, but it's not my priority.

Why on Earth would Brazilians bother going to Punta Cana or Cancun when they have some of the most beautiful beaches in the world at home? Punta Cana is also a "beach town" that was planned to cater to American tourists. It's really just a bunch of walled off all-inclusive resorts lined up next to each other on the beach. It is one of the few places that I swore I would never visit again in my life.

[Crawford]

Wow, Brazilians go to Cancun? Weird.

Maybe some cultural quirk? I know middle class Brazilians are completely gaga for Disneyworld, and it's a big status thing. Maybe Cancun is similar?

Mexico City is waaay more interesting than Santiago, BTW. And Mexican people are far warmer, food is far better, etc.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Why on Earth would Brazilians bother going to Punta Cana or Cancun?

I know! People could go to Northeast and have pretty much the same stuff, with a historical core to make things more interesting.

And worse: many people choose those places over any international trip. I think of two acquaintances that went there and never bothered to go not even to Portugal.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Punta Cana is also a "beach town" that was planned to cater to American tourists. It's really just a bunch of walled off all-inclusive resorts lined up next to each other on the beach. It is one of the few places that I swore I would never visit again in my life.

I imagine how cool the crowd is... Pushing food and drink down the throat in a soulless resort.

At least we could argue Americans are not used to those kind of beaches. But Brazilians, I can't understand.

[JMKeynes]

São Paulo is a dump. BA and Mexico City are much nicer.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Wow, Brazilians go to Cancun? Weird.

I don't have stats, but they're big there. Everybody goes there.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Maybe some cultural quirk? I know middle class Brazilians are completely gaga for Disneyworld, and it's a big status thing. Maybe Cancun is similar?

I really don't know. About Disney, they're indeed in love and apparently the love is increasing. Cancun, not really. It's always on the top of tourism agencies banners and people just go there. I guess they don't even think through. Of course, it's relatively cheap, but so does Miami.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Mexico City is waaay more interesting than Santiago, BTW. And Mexican people are far warmer, food is far better, etc.

Oh yeah, Mexican culture is very strong and unique. It's an attraction for itself, few countries have such strong cultural brand. What I meant was this artsy, alternative part. I imagine Mexican culture more traditional, with stronger gender roles, conservative.

Of course on big cities things are different everywhere, but I wouldn't see Mexico City having a strong scene to the point to attract international attention. São Paulo, Rio or Buenos Aires, more likely.

[destroycreate]

Originally Posted by Yuri

I don't have stats, but they're big there. Everybody goes there.

As a gay man who goes to Puerto Vallarta all the time (my dad lives there), I have been surprised to meet more and more gay Brazilians, as well as Colombians on holiday there. Odd due to the travel time, but also b/c I would assume their countries have plenty to offer beach vibes wise and a similar climate in many areas. Esp. with Brazil's boisterous LGBTQ scene.

[Crawford]

I'm not sure Colombia has great beaches. Colombia and Venezuela generally have steaming hot coastlines that aren't too beachy, I think. And a lot of oil fields. But yeah, that's strange that South Americans would be hanging out in Mexico for a beach vacation.

[muppet]

polite reminder, because some people in one region don't think of that place as big in their mindset doesn't mean it doesn't feature for the rest of another region, or the world. For example Shanghai got 9 million international tourists pre-pandemic (for comparison that would be the second most internationally visited city in the Americas after NYC. LA 7 million, Orlando 6.5 million, Cancun 6.1 million, Vegas 5.8 million, Mexico City 3.5 million, Toronto 3 million, Rio 2.3 million).

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Yuri

I imagine how cool the crowd is... Pushing food and drink down the throat in a soulless resort.

There's a certain type of American that thinks a resort vacation in Punta Cana or Cancun is an exotic experience. It's an extension of the philosophy that created places like Orlando and Las Vegas as travel destinations. I blame Walt Disney and Bugsy Siegel for it.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm not sure Colombia has great beaches.

Neither am I. The large rivers crossing the rainforest in South America tends to make beach waters kinda muddy.
That's the way it is in French Guiana, not a good spot for beach people, unless you get to tiny islands a couple of miles away from the coastline, where water is somewhat clearer.

It might only depend on the very spot you stand on, but your best bet is the Carribean islands if you like beaches and their tourists anyway.

[muppet]

I would love to check out Sao Paulo, there's a huge flowering of food, buzz and bars -imo Rio is Rio, SP is Brazil's New Yawkk

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by muppet

I would love to check out Sao Paulo, there's a huge flowering of food, buzz and bars -imo Rio is Rio, SP is Brazil's New Yawkk

Honestly, Rio gives me more NYC vibes than SP does. Rio is something like Manhattan combined with Miami, with a mountainous backdrop instead of the Everglades. NYC probably is a mixture of strong elements from Rio and SP, though: Rio's cultural class combined with SP's technocratic elite class.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

As a gay man who goes to Puerto Vallarta all the time (my dad lives there), I have been surprised to meet more and more gay Brazilians, as well as Colombians on holiday there. Odd due to the travel time, but also b/c I would assume their countries have plenty to offer beach vibes wise and a similar climate in many areas. Esp. with Brazil's boisterous LGBTQ scene.

Yes, my former boss, a gay man on his late 40's went to Cancun two years ago as well. I never understood it and he didn't know how to explain it.

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm not sure Colombia has great beaches. Colombia and Venezuela generally have steaming hot coastlines that aren't too beachy, I think. And a lot of oil fields. But yeah, that's strange that South Americans would be hanging out in Mexico for a beach vacation.

Colombia had that tiny island on Caribbean, off Nicaraguan coast: San Andrés. And guess what? Brazilians go there, facing up three connections depending where they live. Almost 24h travelling. People are weird. A friend of mine did like this: São Paulo-Buenos Aires-Bogotá-Cartagena-San Andrés because tickets were cheaper... I would rather die.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

There's a certain type of American that thinks a resort vacation in Punta Cana or Cancun is an exotic experience. It's an extension of the philosophy that created places like Orlando and Las Vegas as travel destinations. I blame Walt Disney and Bugsy Siegel for it.

They're exactly the opposite of exotic.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Neither am I. The large rivers crossing the rainforest in South America tends to make beach waters kinda muddy.
That's the way it is in French Guiana, not a good spot for beach people, unless you get to tiny islands a couple of miles away from the coastline, where water is somewhat clearer.

It might only depend on the very spot you stand on, but your best bet is the Carribean islands if you like beaches and their tourists anyway.

Yeah. In Brazil good beaches ended in Ceará-Piauí border. After that is mangrove, all the way up to Venezuela. Interestingly, you can find some very good beaches on Amazon rivers. Alter do Chão, for instance.

Originally Posted by muppet

I would love to check out Sao Paulo, there's a huge flowering of food, buzz and bars -imo Rio is Rio, SP is Brazil's New Yawkk

Definitely! One never gets bored in this city. People who love big cities love São Paulo. It's the epitome of it.

And people really discovered that São Paulo, even paulistanos themselves. Till, I don't know, 15 years ago, locals believed they must leave the city on weekends to the countryside or the beaches. Now, they learned how to appreciate everything the city has to offer. Even carnival: from nothing till 2013 or so, to the largest street parties in the country, surpassing Rio and Salvador.

On the domestic front, the same thing: the city is full of domestic tourists from all different ages and interests. That would be very unexpected till 10 years ago. People would only come for business, or very specific reasons.