Detroit & Michigan: Go-Town Transportation Lowdown

[subterranean]

I don't know if trains run the remainder of the Grand Trunk Western Railroad, a portion of which is now occupied by the Dequindre Cut, but I've always thought it would be a pretty good location to run something like light rail. The right of way is there and most of the way it's grade separated or signaled. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Amtrak runs up to Pontiac on this line, connecting near Russel Industrial Center. Not sure if these two systems could coexist in the same right of way.

[The North One]

Anyone who thinks this should go to Pontiac knows nothing about transit. A streetcar is great for getting around a core city area, outside of that you need legitimate rapid transit.

Which is why even the notion of an extension to 8mile is ridiculous. If the streetcar is to be expanded in the city the best options are down Michigan Avenue into Corktown or Jefferson to Belle Isle. I would not extend this down Woodward any further than Highland Park.

[mousquet]

^ Yep. I guess this is it, at peace, "au calme" as they say here.

But bigger means are still needed, huh.

[deja vu]

Who knows? Maybe one day the QLine will extend all the way to downtown Pontiac.

To be clear, I was joking about this type of line running that far.

[LMich]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I don't know if trains run the remainder of the Grand Trunk Western Railroad, a portion of which is now occupied by the Dequindre Cut, but I've always thought it would be a pretty good location to run something like light rail. The right of way is there and most of the way it's grade separated or signaled. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Amtrak runs up to Pontiac on this line, connecting near Russel Industrial Center. Not sure if these two systems could coexist in the same right of way.

If anything goes along this line, it'd be heavy commuter rail. SEMTA (now SMART) operated a commuter rail line along this corridor (CN Holly Subdivision) from the RenCen to Pontiac for almost a decade up to 1983. I would suspect if the Ann Arbor-Detroit regional rail project ever gets off the ground, this service is the next obvious expansion.

Anyway, the very nature of development along the corridor would dictate that the QLine, if ever expanded, wouldn't operate the same as it does south of Grand. It has always been a given that north of Grand that it would operate as a center-running light rail line.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by LMich

If anything goes along this line, it'd be heavy commuter rail. SEMTA (now SMART) operated a commuter rail line along this corridor (CN Holly Subdivision) from the RenCen to Pontiac for almost a decade up to 1983. I would suspect if the Ann Arbor-Detroit regional rail project ever gets off the ground, this service is the next obvious expansion.

Anyway, the very nature of development along the corridor would dictate that the QLine, if ever expanded, wouldn't operate the same as it does south of Grand. It has always been a given that north of Grand that it would operate as a center-running light rail line.

I did not know that. Thanks for the history lesson.

[LMich]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I did not know that. Thanks for the history lesson.

On some additional background, Grand Trunk Western Railroad had offered commuter service between Pontiac and Brush Street Station (where the RenCen is) from 1931 until the railroads began phasing out passenger service. Apart from the two termini, the SEMTA line had 8 stations, one in Detroit (Milwaukee Junction), one in Highland Park (Chrysler Center), and then six north of 8 Mile: Ferndale, two in Royal Oak, Birmingham, Bloomfield Township, and Bloomfield Hills.

Here are a few photos from 1973 of Brush Street Station. It would be torn down that same year and the station (Franklin Street Station) moved east of the RenCen:





This was one of the three downtown passenger stations the others being Fort Street Union Depot and Michigan Central Station. Brush Street hosted the Grand Trunk Western Railroad including it's commuter services. Michigan Central Station hosted its namesake and its partners, and Fort Street Union Depot hosted everything else.

It's also my understanding that the east-half of the Dequindre Cut was purposefully left unpaved in case the region wanted to run a rail line back down the cut. So, rail using this line is not farfetched at all.

[M. Brown]

I drove up and down Woodward this past week, and I have to say this Qline has completely transformed this corridor and Downtown in a very positive way. I moved to the Detroit area (downriver specifically) back in 2014, and the amount of change I've seen in this city has been amazing to watch.

[subterranean]

I'm really looking forward to seeing it all next month when I return home for a visit. I have seen a lot of hate online about the streetcar, about wait times, blockage of the tracks by vehicles, hot cars, lack of upkeep on streetcar-owned street lights, blah blah. Of course it is going to take a little bit to work out the kinks, which is probably why it will remain free until July.

[The North One]

Windsor-Toronto in 2 hours? Canada eyes high-speed rail
Tresa Baldas, Detroit Free Press

Ontario moves forward with plans to build a high-speed rail line between Windsor and Toronto. Detroit Free Press

One expert recommends Ontario work with Michigan on plans for future expansion of the rail service to the U.S.

An ambitious high-speed rail plan that would get travelers from Windsor to Toronto in just two hours is gaining steam in Canada — and there's even talk about one day extending the line to Detroit.

According to the Ontario government, the province is going to spend $15 million to begin the process of building a high-speed rail line on which trains will move at speeds of up to 155 m.p.h. an hour between Windsor and Toronto. Requests for design bids are set to go out this fall.

While the project is years away from becoming a reality, a transportation expert has recommended that Ontario work with Michigan on plans for future expansion of the rail service to the U.S. Trains would enter the country via Detroit through the existing rail tunnel that runs under the Detroit River west of downtown.

For now, the goal is to get the multi-billion-dollar plan up and running in Canada by 2025. If successful, the train ride between Windsor and Toronto would get cut in half, from four hours to two.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/2017...ine/335178001/

In the future they could take this all the way to Montreal, that would be an incredible urban corridor.

[subterranean]

^^^ I saw that, too. That is VERY exciting. I will practically be an old man before it's done, but what a phenomenal resource. Being Canada-adjacent has its perks.

Could you imagine if someday there was real HSR between Chicago and Montreal?

[lrt's friend]

How interesting?

This is also being discussed in the Canada threads. I speculated exactly what was mentioned about extending service to Detroit and Chicago eventually, so this is obviously not a pipe dream.

The idea of extending this from Toronto to Montreal via Ottawa is also in the works. VIA Rail Canada already owns much the rail line around Ottawa. VIA Rail is supposed to be studying the Toronto-Montreal proposal and if it is feasible, federal funding is likely.

At the present time, the Ottawa-Toronto route is the most popular route in the VIA Rail network.

The Toronto-Windsor route is being pushed by the Ontario government as road congestion is becoming an increasing issue.

I hope in my lifetime to see rapid/frequent rail in operation between Quebec City and Chicago.

This is not beyond the realm of possibility given that the Canadian and U.S. governments signed an agreement that will enable pre-screening of rail passengers that will be crossing the border much like the airlines do today. This will eliminate the current problems that delay trains for hours at the border. I expect that will mean that international passengers will be sealed in separate train cars from domestic passengers.

[Docta_Love]

Perhaps the Canadian plan will bring fresh attention to the possibilities of the Detroit - Chicago "high speed" line and start getting to the serious track upgrading work that's needed only a tiny amount of major track work has taken place so far very disappointing. I'm sure if things pan out plans to upgrade Detroit River Rail Tunnel would be brought out again as well.

I really do love the idea of a Chicago to Montreal high speed corridor it would truly one of the top corridors in all of North America.

[LMich]

But for a short portion most of the track between Chicago and Detroit has been upgrade (or is being upgraded as we speak) to high-speed (or at least higher-speed) service. They've been hard at it for a few years now. In fact, what's been pretty amazing is that as other projects in the state have languished, the upgrade of the Michigan Line has never stopped. They've been straightening curves, adding back double-track in Metro Detroit, upgrading signalling...the whole nine for quite a few years now. The part of the line between Porter, IN and Kalamazoo has had services running at 110MPH since 2012, and they've moved most of the work east of Kalamazoo and have been upgrading that portion of the Michigan Line. The part between Kalamzoo and Dearborn (135 miles of the line) was bought by the state way back in 2013.

[Rizzo]

^ LMich, I was looking for those above photos forever. Thanks for posting them.

[LMich]

No problem, Hayward. There are quite a few more pictures of the station. It was the smallest and least grand of the three downtown stations.

1956


GodFatherRails


GodFatherRails


GodFatherRails

1962


Classic Trains

1973 - this was the mass clearing for the RenCen


Walter P. Reuther Library


Walter P. Reuther Library

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I did not know that. Thanks for the history lesson.

cleveland had a commuter rail line to youngstown that ran for decades and ended at that time as well. whoa, the rust belt pain. hopefully they will get a cleveland-akron-canton commuter line going someday. and one along the lakefront. bring commuter rail services back!

[lrt's friend]

It is funny how rail was simply pushed aside as being passe in the 50s, 60s and 70s when we now realize that it is critical to the rebuilding of our downtowns. All that infrastructure now has to be rebuilt whether it was completely lost or needs massive rehabilitation after decades of neglect.

[mrnyc]

^ yeah - it seems the early 1980s was a second wave holocaust for rail transit in the rust belt. hopefully services can get further rebuilt and restarted, including commuter rail.

[subterranean]

Truly sad. And I think about how now they require NEPA and studies and all the other bureaucratic hurdles adding millions of $$$ to make a simple 3 mile long street car.