PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by Larry King

KOP can go to hell, any $$ septa spends there is money wasted

Agreed. Any money that SEPTA spends should go to suburban extensions (West Chester, Parkesburg, Newtown, at least Pottstown, and Bethlehem) and city subway extensions/expansions (Roosevelt Blvd. subway, BSL extension to Cheltenham and Ogontz via Stenton Ave., MFL extension to Roosevelt Blvd., etc.). Honestly, I wish SEPTA could do everything I envisioned on this map (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m..._k&usp=sharing), but that would be nearly impossible given the state of funding.

PA state politicians really need to wise up and realize that an investment in Philadelphia is an investment that the rest of PA can capitalize on. With Philly's population growth, a ton of new investment, new jobs, and revitalized neighborhoods, it is a great time for PA to make public transportation investments. Also, PennDOT should really spearhead the Schuylkill Valley Metro project and the full restoration of the Bethlehem Branch since it is outside of SEPTA's five-county service area.

[Cro Burnham]

^

Fellas, that is not well thought out.

I think you guys are dead wrong. Any enhancement of transit connectivity between the region's major commercial nodes, particularly CC and KOP, is a total slam dunk boon for Center City and the region as a whole.

I mean, your logic could be extended to suggest shutting down all the suburban commuter lines and Del River crossings, they just suck money from the core. This is kind ofvacparochial protectionist mindset that is guaranteed to exarcerbate regional division and shrink economic growth potential.

The less Center City is isolated ftom mainstream nodes like KOP, Cherry Hill, Plymouth Mtg, the more businesses and people in those areas will want to partake of all CC has to offer.

Will a few city people take advantage of easier access to KOP? Sure, and that's very, very good. More options and convenience for city residents will increase the desirability, value, population, and employment of the urban core, all while reducing dependence on cars, highways, blighting parking infrastructure, traffic jams, carbon foot print.

It's such an all round win, it's totally idiotic a CC KOP rail link still doesn't exist.

[Larry King]

Isn't it really connecting 69th st to kop? Kop is so horribly unwalkable that I don't know what good a train would do and it's so poorly planned out that I don't know how it can ever be fixed. I don't know much about septas budget but would rather add RR to Phoenixville, more frequent RR trains so they're more like a subway line or do the high speed bus line under the parkway.. Really anything aside from light rail connecting upper darby to a parking lot off a highway

[Philly-Drew]

Need a reason to reduce vehicular traffic on I-76? Here's two:
http://mobile.philly.com/beta?wss=/p...t&id=359143211

[1487]

Originally Posted by Larry King

Isn't it really connecting 69th st to kop? Kop is so horribly unwalkable that I don't know what good a train would do and it's so poorly planned out that I don't know how it can ever be fixed. I don't know much about septas budget but would rather add RR to Phoenixville, more frequent RR trains so they're more like a subway line or do the high speed bus line under the parkway.. Really anything aside from light rail connecting upper darby to a parking lot off a highway

Its not about K of P being walkable. It about offering an alternative means of travel for workers who either don't have cars or don't want to sit in traffic for 45-60 minutes getting to K of P. You can rest assured that there will be shuttle buses or a bus loop involved to link the stations with the jobs since the area isn't really walkable or dense right now.

More frequent train service isn't easy or cheap- if it was it would have been done already. SEPTA doesn't have enough cars for more frequent service and acquiring new cars takes years and costs hundreds of millions. In addition, there are capacity issues on the railroad already so adding more traffic is likely close to impossible during peak travel times.

[br323206]

Originally Posted by Larry King

Isn't it really connecting 69th st to kop? Kop is so horribly unwalkable that I don't know what good a train would do and it's so poorly planned out that I don't know how it can ever be fixed. I don't know much about septas budget but would rather add RR to Phoenixville, more frequent RR trains so they're more like a subway line or do the high speed bus line under the parkway.. Really anything aside from light rail connecting upper darby to a parking lot off a highway

Transfers are never ideal but the transfer at 69th Street is about as smooth as you can get. It's really very easy. Also, Upper Merion has worked very hard on updating the zoning to make KOP a more walkable, transit-friendly place. In a few decades it's going to be a totally different place.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by 1487

Its not about K of P being walkable. It about offering an alternative means of travel for workers who either don't have cars or don't want to sit in traffic for 45-60 minutes getting to K of P.

I can't imagine anyone with a car, forgoing their car to travel to KoP by train, if there was one. Yes, the traffic is horrendous, but how much faster is a train AFTER you factor in the need to drive to the station, wait for the train, and then connect to a shuttle bus to get to your final destination? The bulk of mass transit users to KoP are the hourly workers coming in from the city. The buses go directly to the mall. And barring the construction of a subway out to KoP, buses will be the only direct means of mass transit from Center City to the mall.

One other thing to consider: the awful traffic in and around KoP is a burden on KoP. It keeps many potential employees (like myself ) from ever even applying for a job in that area and many businesses factor in the traffic when considering relocation.

Simply put, I'm not in favor of our tax dollars being used to make it easier to get to a far flung suburb. Especially when there are SO many other pressing transit priorities out there and such limited funding.

[MikeNigh]

This doesn't seem like a good model... Good public transport gets built - makes the land too valuable to compete with who cares where suburb - who cares suburb gets all the new offices - the new offices get good public transport built.

[1487]

Originally Posted by McBane

I can't imagine anyone with a car, forgoing their car to travel to KoP by train, if there was one. Yes, the traffic is horrendous, but how much faster is a train AFTER you factor in the need to drive to the station, wait for the train, and then connect to a shuttle bus to get to your final destination? The bulk of mass transit users to KoP are the hourly workers coming in from the city. The buses go directly to the mall. And barring the construction of a subway out to KoP, buses will be the only direct means of mass transit from Center City to the mall.

One other thing to consider: the awful traffic in and around KoP is a burden on KoP. It keeps many potential employees (like myself ) from ever even applying for a job in that area and many businesses factor in the traffic when considering relocation.

Simply put, I'm not in favor of our tax dollars being used to make it easier to get to a far flung suburb. Especially when there are SO many other pressing transit priorities out there and such limited funding.

if K of P ever moves forward a huge chunk of the funding will come from the feds. That is the ONLY way this is happening. 76 is well beyond capacity and this is really the only alternative. The route 100 already travels through many well heeled suburbs in Montco and Delco- there are thousands of people who live in close proximity to the 100 who likely work in and around K of P. Cathing mass transit is rarely about SPEED. Generally speaking people who catch regional rail into CC can theoretically get to work faster by car. It's about stress levels and frustration. Even with gas being cheap RR is at or near capacity. Why? because the decision not to drive isn't based strictly on economics or travel times. People do not like sitting in traffic day after day when there is an alternative. If you live in the burbs driving to a station and finding parking is a way of life. Tens of thousands of suburbanites do it already, its not a deterrent from taking the train.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by 1487

Cathing mass transit is rarely about SPEED. Generally speaking people who catch regional rail into CC can theoretically get to work faster by car. It's about stress levels and frustration. Even with gas being cheap RR is at or near capacity. Why? because the decision not to drive isn't based strictly on economics or travel times. People do not like sitting in traffic day after day when there is an alternative. If you live in the burbs driving to a station and finding parking is a way of life. Tens of thousands of suburbanites do it already, its not a deterrent from taking the train.

But you failed to factor in the cost of parking (easily $20/day) in Center City as a motivating factor for taking the train. On the flip side, KoP has a plethora of free parking.

Moreover, if you're working in KoP and god forbid ever wanted to use your lunch hour to go out for lunch or run any sort of errand, you'd be screwed. On the other hand, office workers in the city (even the small minority who drive) can easily achieve their errands without making use of a car.

Finally, there's the fact that the majority of CC office space is walking distance from the train three major train stations, allowing commuters to get to their jobs in "one seat". KoP is so spread out that invariably, the majority of commuters would need a connection to their office. We all know that requiring a transfer creates a HUGE disincentive for taking transit over driving.

Bottom line: they can build the train, but you're not going to see a large percentage of KoP commuters abandon their cars, no matter how crappy that drive is.

[1487]

Originally Posted by McBane

But you failed to factor in the cost of parking (easily $20/day) in Center City as a motivating factor for taking the train. On the flip side, KoP has a plethora of free parking.

Moreover, if you're working in KoP and god forbid ever wanted to use your lunch hour to go out for lunch or run any sort of errand, you'd be screwed. On the other hand, office workers in the city (even the small minority who drive) can easily achieve their errands without making use of a car.

Finally, there's the fact that the majority of CC office space is walking distance from the train three major train stations, allowing commuters to get to their jobs in "one seat". KoP is so spread out that invariably, the majority of commuters would need a connection to their office. We all know that requiring a transfer creates a HUGE disincentive for taking transit over driving.

Bottom line: they can build the train, but you're not going to see a large percentage of KoP commuters abandon their cars, no matter how crappy that drive is.

1. This line wont be active for years, if it ever gets built. By the time that happens you can bet there will be changes in terms of density in K of P and amenities offered on site in office buildings
2. Parking is free, but anyone who has parked in a huge lot knows that being one of the last to park is anything but convenient in terms of getting to your destination. With a shuttle you are dropped right at the door
3. LUCY proves that people have no issue with shuttle buses connecting a major transit hub to an office. There are also shuttles for 1500 spring garden, Cira center, Jefferson, vanguard and the navy yard. Its not a new idea in this region.
4. The worst part of rush hour driving is the traffic and the lost time. A train never gets delayed due to traffic and as a commuter you can read or sleep as opposed to exercising your leg muscles on the brake pedal. If parking garage prices dropped 50% overnight in Philly I guarantee you it wouldn't make much difference in RR usage.
5. Many younger workers wont consider working in a place like K of P if buying a maintaining a car is the only way to get out there. THere are young philly residents commuting 60-90 minutes to Vanguard's campus via SEPTA in Chester county.

[Knight Hospitaller]

It's a slow day, and this is a fine discussion, but there's a mass transit thread that is probably better suited to this: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...t=philadelphia

[McBane]

I was just about mention the transportation forum as a place to continue this discussion, even on a slow news day. Although I'm okay to leave it as "agree to disagree."

[Arch+Eng]

If we can eliminate all cars & trains...we can force people to stay here.....then...they have to build here.

Great logic

[kilbride102]

Its also easy to be carless when u are 20-25 with no kids. Once kids come a car is a necessity. And if u have a car why not use it to commute? I think people not enjoying commutes is overstated. Within reason, a commute can be a time to enjoy some alone time or listen to music or podcasts without having to use earbuds. I like commuting 30-45 minutes,it gives me time to destress from work, focus on a task I enjoy(driving), and prepare and organize what I have to do for the rest of the day.

[Koernerstr32]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

It's a slow day, and this is a fine discussion, but there's a mass transit thread that is probably better suited to this: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...t=philadelphia

Especially when both the Development and General threads are now both mainly about transportation...Transportation thread is great for transportation topics, slow day or not.

[loverboie]

An upcoming 28-story, 455,000-square-foot mixed-used project on West Market Street has added a Chicago-based restaurant chain to fill in some space, giving its residents and passers-by the option to grab food on the go.
http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelp...market-st.html

[1487]

Originally Posted by kilbride102

Its also easy to be carless when u are 20-25 with no kids. Once kids come a car is a necessity. And if u have a car why not use it to commute? I think people not enjoying commutes is overstated. Within reason, a commute can be a time to enjoy some alone time or listen to music or podcasts without having to use earbuds. I like commuting 30-45 minutes,it gives me time to destress from work, focus on a task I enjoy(driving), and prepare and organize what I have to do for the rest of the day.

its generational. While people of Gen X and older are obsessed with cars and the notion that being stuck in traffic is part of their God given freedom as an American things are not seen the same way by younger people. driving generally is not enjoyable when you HAVE to drive. Traffic is bad almost everywhere and it's frustrating. The Inquirer did a huge article about traffic and commuting in the DE valley months ago and the general sentiment was that people who live far from work are not happy with the situation nor are they pleased with the fact that they have no alternatives in terms of commuting. People do it because they have to, not because they are enjoying themselves.

[Insoluble]

Originally Posted by kilbride102

Its also easy to be carless when u are 20-25 with no kids. Once kids come a car is a necessity. And if u have a car why not use it to commute? I think people not enjoying commutes is overstated. Within reason, a commute can be a time to enjoy some alone time or listen to music or podcasts without having to use earbuds. I like commuting 30-45 minutes,it gives me time to destress from work, focus on a task I enjoy(driving), and prepare and organize what I have to do for the rest of the day.

(Sigh.) This notion comes up every once in a while. For some reason people always assume that everyone else in the world is exactly like them. Let me just say emphatically, "NO". A car is NOT a necessity once you have kids. In fact a car is often the least convenient way to get around with kids if you live in a walkable neighborhood.

Sincerely,
A carless (by choice) middle-class Gen-Xer with a kid.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Insoluble

(Sigh.) This notion comes up every once in a while. For some reason people always assume that everyone else in the world is exactly like them. Let me just say emphatically, "NO". A car is NOT a necessity once you have kids. In fact a car is often the least convenient way to get around with kids if you live in a walkable neighborhood.

Sincerely,
A carless (by choice) middle-class Gen-Xer with a kid.

yes, I worked with numerous people who lived between Fairmount and Washington Ave who had kids and either didn't own cars or owned them or rarely used them. The person I sat next to before I changed jobs had a baby and she would tell me how they rarely drove anywhere. She and her baby's dady were in South Philly.