The Unmasking Thread

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Am I free to endanger others by drinking and driving or putting myself at risk by not wearing a seatbelt? Sure, but there are consequences.

The presence of consequences is a legal issue, and the laws are made with at least some conception of public opinion. I mean, you have voiced your anger about people going without masks in stores. Well, I just returned from a crowded supermarket in central Stockholm where few people were wearing masks, and as many people as wanted to be in the store were allowed in. It was packed. So here, the same behaviour that you decry as requiring consequences, is consequence-free. It just went differently.

There were doubtlessly a few people in that market who would have preferred Canada-style consequences for the unmasked crowd. So why wouldn't there be those in Canada who would prefer it have gone the other way, with strict consequences enforced far away in Sweden, and none for them?

These are just policies at the end of the day, and ones that were erected fairly quickly. They might be wise and reasonable and trace precisely the correct line between risk and behavioural latitude, in Canadians' view, but they're not holy writ.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I'm surprised to read about all of these non compliances in other areas of the country. Do these places not have broad mask requirements for interior common spaces?

Here in Ottawa and surrounds I can't remember seeing or reading about such incidents except for maybe in the earlier stages of COVID. Mask compliance is "100%" in my travels around town, notwithstanding the odd case of someone not covering their nose.

Maybe we just have a comparatively compliant population...

That’s cause you don’t live in Canadian Texas. Our police literally escort anti mask rallies into malls.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

That’s cause you don’t live in Canadian Texas.

For some reason I didn't see Calgary! I thought you were in Ottawa based on the 'O'. I confess that I find it easier to believe there might be some disobedience going on in Calgary vs. Ottawa for some reason!

[Doady]

The anti-maskers are probably all employees of Gillette, or the same people who get angry and attack MolsonExport for disagreeing with the idea that higher speeds would make roads safer. It's the people we already knew about, and they are a minority, I'm sure.

I haven't noticed first-hand any resistance or hostility in public related to wearing masks or any other COVID restrictions. If anything, I have noticed people, complete strangers, being friendlier and more outgoing when I go to the park, taking the time to smile and say hi and crack jokes and even asking me about my photography. Maybe the pandemic has made people realize the value of connections and social interaction more than ever. Of course, I've never been the most outgoing person myself, but I know people are having a tough time, so even if it is against my nature I make an extra effort to be friendly, and maybe other people are doing the same.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

Are you referring to the health/medical consequences or the social/political/economic consequences of lockdown legislation? I feel like in my case it's been the latter more than the former. My own parents (god love them) have a completely different perspective of the consequences of lockdowns and the ever-so-shifting goalposts over the past year that it's disappointing they cannot look at things from that context; they watch CBC everyday and talk about 'new variants' and '5 new cases' etc but don't understand why their 3 sons are all suffering massive financial and career hardships & uncertainty. Both my parents raised my siblings and I in a lower-middle class household in rural Nova Scotia, yet they both retired at 63 and don't seem to have a clue of what's going on outside of their TV/Twitter bubble.

Here in BC our premier directed some pretty nasty stuff at 20-39 year olds in a public health address. How is this for unmasking?

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1879178819924

"The cohort from 20-39 are not paying as much attention to these broadcasts and quite frankly are putting the rest of us in a challenging situation ... do not blow this for your parents and neighbours and others who have been working really really hard."

The younger people (is 39 really that young? I am waiting for baby boomers to infantilize 45 year olds) who I know have been very careful and have made the biggest sacrifices for the least personal gain. Many of them have either lost their jobs or are essential workers who must show up in person and are at much higher risk. They generally live in more cramped conditions, rentals with roommates around here. They had the greatest financial hardship going into the pandemic.

The reality of BC's case numbers and covid spread is that if the typical 20-39 year old really were partying it up and then visiting older family members things would have gotten completely out of control here long ago. Cases in the 20-29 cohort are not even 2x what they are in 50-59 and that's without correcting for unavoidable risk in workplaces and households.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

The presence of consequences is a legal issue, and the laws are made with at least some conception of public opinion. I mean, you have voiced your anger about people going without masks in stores. Well, I just returned from a crowded supermarket in central Stockholm where few people were wearing masks, and as many people as wanted to be in the store were allowed in. It was packed. So here, the same behaviour that you decry as requiring consequences, is consequence-free. It just went differently.

There were doubtlessly a few people in that market who would have preferred Canada-style consequences for the unmasked crowd. So why wouldn't there be those in Canada who would prefer it have gone the other way, with strict consequences enforced far away in Sweden, and none for them?

These are just policies at the end of the day, and ones that were erected fairly quickly. They might be wise and reasonable and trace precisely the correct line between risk and behavioural latitude, in Canadians' view, but they're not holy writ.

I would say that is the reason why Sweden has had the highest infection and death rates of any of the Scandinavian countries. The herd immunity approach has been proven not to work.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

For some reason I didn't see Calgary! I thought you were in Ottawa based on the 'O'. I confess that I find it easier to believe there might be some disobedience going on in Calgary vs. Ottawa for some reason!

The O is for my first name. And yes Calgary and Alberta in general has a much higher percentage of Don’t Tread on Me dbags.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I would say that is the reason why Sweden has had the highest infection and death rates of any of the Scandinavian countries. The herd immunity approach has been proven not to work.

OK... and? So what? The people I saw in the market wearing masks and face shields probably feel that way too. And yet they still have to go get their food in 2019, or pay to have it delivered to their home. Because their side didn't win here.

I wasn't saying that you should switch to supporting Swedish COVID policy, but rather that the surprise you express at non-compliance is probably a bit misplaced given that the restrictions you support are not universally championed.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I would say that is the reason why Sweden has had the highest infection and death rates of any of the Scandinavian countries. The herd immunity approach has been proven not to work.

As I understand it, the Swedish COVID-19 death rate is about in the middle of the range of European countries generally. It was high initially, before there was any policy divergence between it and other countries, but since then it hasn't been particularly bad. All while maintaining openness to a greater degree than most other countries.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I'm surprised to read about all of these non compliances in other areas of the country. Do these places not have broad mask requirements for interior common spaces?

Here in Ottawa and surrounds I can't remember seeing or reading about such incidents except for maybe in the earlier stages of COVID. Mask compliance is "100%" in my travels around town, notwithstanding the odd case of someone not covering their nose.

Maybe we just have a comparatively compliant population...

Compliance has been excellent here as well. We've had one incident where a woman who refused to wear a mask went to a local grocery for a Facebook livestream purposefully to test the staff. She was booted, to the resounding delight of the masses. Incidentally, she's apparently just married the most notable local racist.

Beyond masks - just about every trail here is now one-directional and people even follow that. The only exception is... the directions seem to have been chosen based on avoiding forcing people to walk up the steepest inclines, which makes sense. But it defeats the purpose for people who are working out - so you'll often come across very fit people in the trendiest trail running gear coming the wrong way, but they give a wide berth.

The most common rule-breaking here is probably house parties with people outside your "Tight Twenty" and, of course, hook up culture. But our Minister of Health has warned us...

[kool maudit]

Sweden has enough cases and deaths that nobody who supports stricter measures will ever see it as a reasonable counter argument, which is fine, I mean -- I'm an immigrant with no vote, I'm not that invested in this. I'm fine with being here and behave as most Swedes do. When I'm in stricter areas, I follow the local laws without fail, and when I come back I toss my mask in a bin outside Arlanda.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

In Vancouver I have yet to see somebody not wearing a mask indoors. They stick out like a sore thumb of course. I haven't seen anybody asked to leave either.

I have had to say "back up" a few times to people in lineups. For christ's sake it's been a year and there are markings on the floor. Why is that part still so tough for people?

I do most of my shopping either in New West or a short drive beyond city limits in Coquitlam, Burnaby or Surrey.

Generally the mask-wearing is above 95% in those locations, but in recent weeks I have noticed mask-wearing slipping a bit in New West. Two times recently I've gone into Royal Square (to go to the liquor store which is inside the mall) and I've seen multiple people not wearing masks. One of the times I saw three kids, all not wearing masks, and I had to move to the side to avoid the one unmasked kid coming right toward me. All of them were with parents who themselves were wearing masks. Another time I saw a woman, probably 70-75 years old, standing outside the liquor store without a mask.

The recent viral video of an unmasked customer being tackled by security at a Canadian Tire in Burnaby was the Canadian Tire I usually go to, but the times I've been in recent memory I haven't seen anyone without a mask.

Mask-wearing has been 100% at the grocery stores I've been going to though. I've also seen an increasing number of people in my neighbourhood wearing masks outdoors.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Doady

I haven't noticed first-hand any resistance or hostility in public related to wearing masks or any other COVID restrictions. If anything, I have noticed people, complete strangers, being friendlier and more outgoing when I go to the park, taking the time to smile and say hi and crack jokes and even asking me about my photography. Maybe the pandemic has made people realize the value of connections and social interaction more than ever. Of course, I've never been the most outgoing person myself, but I know people are having a tough time, so even if it is against my nature I make an extra effort to be friendly, and maybe other people are doing the same.

I've seen the opposite in Metro Vancouver, personally, and I overheard two people chatting outside about this very subject, saying they'd seen a distinct change in how friendly people on the street have been in recent months. I've also noticed a change since last summer.

This may not be entirely Covid-related, however. Some people have also been on edge because of some recent incidents involving alleged stalking of women in both Vancouver and Burnaby, and on local Facebook and Reddit groups I've seen a sharp increase in people concerned about the intentions of strangers. I can't say I blame anyone for the higher vigilance these days.

Still, I think the social isolation of the pandemic has been silently having an impact on our social lives and even our identities as social animals, especially for those of us who are single and don't have immediate family nearby, and it's something that hasn't been adequately addressed by public officials. I know myself that after months of not being allowed to gather with anyone that I've mostly lost interest in talking to anyone, outside of work I pretty much only talk to my parents and a couple friends who don't live in BC. I just don't feel motivated to talk to anyone anymore, including on the street, although I have a couple people locally who reach out to me occasionally which is a help. Connecting to group video chats online is of zero interest to me.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Sweden has enough cases and deaths that nobody who supports stricter measures will ever see it as a reasonable counter argument, which is fine, I mean -- I'm an immigrant with no vote, I'm not that invested in this. I'm fine with being here and behave as most Swedes do. When I'm in stricter areas, I follow the local laws without fail, and when I come back I toss my mask in a bin outside Arlanda.

Sweden was a progressive media darling up until sometime in 2020, when the dominant narrative around here snapped around to being something about them basing their policy on faith that herd immunity will end the pandemic while everybody else is still locked down.

My impression is that it is incorrect to think of herd immunity as a policy goal or rationale in Sweden. Rather the rationale given was more along the lines of picking policies that were sustainable potentially for years, which seems pretty sensible as we are now a bit into year 2.

Vaccines may bring us out of the pandemic sooner but most experts predicted fairly low odds of that happening, particularly last summer or earlier, and it's still not guaranteed since we are in an arms race against evolution. Also note that a lot of people in countries like the US and UK have already been infected and so were not protected by lockdowns (i.e. "they just didn't lock down hard enough"). Covid has already ripped through a significant percentage of all care homes in Canada.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by someone123

Sweden was a progressive media darling up until sometime in 2020, when the dominant narrative around here snapped around to being something about them basing their policy on faith that herd immunity will end the pandemic while everybody else is still locked down.

What is the progressive media?

When did they endorse Sweden's "herd immunity" as a reasonable strategy?

FYI herd immunity is actually the concept of mass vaccination, it has never been achieved through infection.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by someone123

Here in BC our premier directed some pretty nasty stuff at 20-39 year olds in a public health address. How is this for unmasking?

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1879178819924

"The cohort from 20-39 are not paying as much attention to these broadcasts and quite frankly are putting the rest of us in a challenging situation ... do not blow this for your parents and neighbours and others who have been working really really hard."

The younger people (is 39 really that young? I am waiting for baby boomers to infantilize 45 year olds) who I know have been very careful and have made the biggest sacrifices for the least personal gain. Many of them have either lost their jobs or are essential workers who must show up in person and are at much higher risk. They generally live in more cramped conditions, rentals with roommates around here. They had the greatest financial hardship going into the pandemic.

The reality of BC's case numbers and covid spread is that if the typical 20-39 year old really were partying it up and then visiting older family members things would have gotten completely out of control here long ago. Cases in the 20-29 cohort are not even 2x what they are in 50-59 and that's without correcting for unavoidable risk in workplaces and households.

As someone in the 30-39 cohort I didn't like Horgan's approach, but he is right about one thing, people my age don't watch those news conferences, which are carried on cable TV and on radio stations like CBC and CKNW. Not only are they're during work hours when people are otherwise occupied, but a lot of people under 40 don't have cable or listen to AM radio.

I have also found a lot of people my age to be disengaged with local news (even before the pandemic) and social media, although this is not unique to BC. I still remember talking to a guy I know weeks after Dr. Henry announced the gathering restrictions in November, and he was completely unaware of the new restrictions, just because he's occupied working 80 hours a week, doesn't consume news, and does not use Facebook.

But that's just the media habits of the generation. I don't blame my age cohort, I blame the government for not getting its messages out properly to segments of the population who don't have cable TV, don't listen to medium wave radio and don't use social media. You can't force people to consume media forms that they don't want to consume.

Text messages or the emergency broadcast system (not Amber alerts, but the same system) might be the best way to reach some younger people, and I know Saskatchewan has done this during the pandemic. When I drove through Saskatchewan last year when I moved to BC, I received an alert on my phone advising of the restrictions that were in place at that time in the province. BC has not done this once, at least since I've been here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Sweden was a progressive media darling up until sometime in 2020, when the dominant narrative around here snapped around to being something about them basing their policy on faith that herd immunity will end the pandemic while everybody else is still locked down.

My impression is that it is incorrect to think of herd immunity as a policy goal or rationale in Sweden. Rather the rationale given was more along the lines of picking policies that were sustainable potentially for years, which seems pretty sensible as we are now a bit into year 2.

Vaccines may bring us out of the pandemic sooner but most experts predicted fairly low odds of that happening, particularly last summer or earlier, and it's still not guaranteed since we are in an arms race against evolution. Also note that a lot of people in countries like the US and UK have already been infected and so were not protected by lockdowns (i.e. "they just didn't lock down hard enough"). Covid has already ripped through a significant percentage of all care homes in Canada.

There is an increasingly strong tendency to take (North) American parameters and map them rather ungraciously onto other countries.

So if Sweden decides against strict lockdowns and doesn't impose masking, it must be because they're racist rednecks with huge pickups, truck nuts and gun racks, who try to occupy legislative buildings...

I recently witnessed a debate among British people who were perplexed at the fast-growing use of the term BIPOC as a group definer in their country.

The million-dollar (EDIT: quid) question: Who is the "I" in the UK, anyway?

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The million-dollar (EDIT: quid) question: Who is the "I" in the UK, anyway?

my ancestors

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I recently witnessed a debate among British people who were perplexed at the fast-growing use of the term BIPOC as a group definer in their country.

The million-dollar (EDIT: quid) question: Who is the "I" in the UK, anyway?

Bring back the woke thread!

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by someone123

Here in BC our premier directed some pretty nasty stuff at 20-39 year olds in a public health address. How is this for unmasking?

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1879178819924

"The cohort from 20-39 are not paying as much attention to these broadcasts and quite frankly are putting the rest of us in a challenging situation ... do not blow this for your parents and neighbours and others who have been working really really hard."

The younger people (is 39 really that young? I am waiting for baby boomers to infantilize 45 year olds) who I know have been very careful and have made the biggest sacrifices for the least personal gain. Many of them have either lost their jobs or are essential workers who must show up in person and are at much higher risk. They generally live in more cramped conditions, rentals with roommates around here. They had the greatest financial hardship going into the pandemic.

The reality of BC's case numbers and covid spread is that if the typical 20-39 year old really were partying it up and then visiting older family members things would have gotten completely out of control here long ago. Cases in the 20-29 cohort are not even 2x what they are in 50-59 and that's without correcting for unavoidable risk in workplaces and households.

Doug Ford blamed "younger people" for spreading the virus here the other day as well, being now that they make up the majority of cases - which uh, should be the case given that most of the older population is now vaccinated. Who else is going to be getting infected if not those who aren't yet eligible for vaccines? Especially when they're the ones going to work (still without any paid sick leave) as the province opens up.

There's also the blame being assigned to younger people for becoming hospitalized - though the data shows ICU rates have held steady, and while hospitalizations have risen, they've also risen for every age group under 70 (who nonetheless still make up the bulk of hospitalizations). The average age of hospital/ICU admissions is falling, but again, that should logically be the case as older people are vaccinated first:


https://twitter.com/rubiconcapital_/...471816/photo/1