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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 3:39 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
I have 2 examples of acquaintances that have gone down different rabbit holes in strange ways.

1st: Very smart guy, quiet, always a bit of a loner, but has a good job, always super happy, nice. I don't know if it's a Trump/QAnon thing that went overboard during COVID, but now he's posting full on government control, Joe Biden is a fake (like he's been replaced by another person). Anti vax. Total lunacy.

2nd: Another smart, successful guy, has a family, good job, super social. Only in the last 3 months or so he's gone totally "COVID Zero". Endless tweets and clearly hours of pouring over articles and studies from around the world. Hyper focused on BC's problem being we opened K-12 schools in September. He has a kid that's too young to be in school so he doesn't have a direct personal interest. It's very strange. The level of obsession is intense. He's still working, but must be spending 4-8 hours a day on this stuff.
I suspect anxiety that has been amplified by the pandemic is causing these (and many others) to manifest their desire to "take back control" in different ways. Some by blaming/scapegoating others (your first example) and some by insulating themselves from all possible risk (your second). I personally have seen a few of both extremes too.
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 3:46 PM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
As I posted in the Covid thread I saw 3 people refusing to wear masks with zero pushback at the grocery store on Sunday. I routinely see at least 1 of these assholes almost every time I go out. I’ve asked stores what their policies are and the response is always that they have signs up but won’t enforce it. Even had a manager at a toy store side with an unmasked woman and her 4 unmasked children ranging in age from about 7-12. Apparently they all were exempt for some mysterious, non specified or valid reason. That same visit there was another woman and her child parading around unmasked. Needless to say we won’t be returning to Mastermind toys.

Oh, also on a visit to the Devonian gardens last week there was a woman seated at the food court hacking up a lung with her mask down around her chin. Lovely.
In December last year I saw a couple (looked to late 50's early 60's) at our local Superstore. They came in without masks. Were repeated told to leave. Came back in several times, making a fuss about having to wear a mask.

As I was picking out some cereal, they were led away in handcuff's by the Police.

I hope whatever point they were trying to make was worth it.
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 3:51 PM
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I will agree with this generally, but specific to radiation exposure there have been some serious cases of overexposure (in children I think?) due to operator error more than anything else. There is regulation in many states around lifetime dose tracking now..
I mentioned in one of my earlier responses that radiologists tend to "get their knickers in a knot" over pediatric CT exposure, and repeated CT scans in younger adults for unnecessary follow-up or surveillance examinations. Children in particular have more metabolically active tissues, with cells undergoing more active and frequent mitoses and therefore are more radiation sensitive. We are extremely careful and conservative in pediatric CT, and will use non ionizing modalities (ultrasound, MRI) if at all possible.

Modern radiology equipment, especially CT scanners are very finely tuned, and employ algorithms that adjust radiation dose to tissue thickness and density throughout the volumetric image acquisition, meaning that only as much radiation as is necessary is used to obtain the image. The engineering is truly impressive.
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 3:57 PM
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I'm surprised to read about all of these non compliances in other areas of the country. Do these places not have broad mask requirements for interior common spaces?

Here in Ottawa and surrounds I can't remember seeing or reading about such incidents except for maybe in the earlier stages of COVID. Mask compliance is "100%" in my travels around town, notwithstanding the odd case of someone not covering their nose.

Maybe we just have a comparatively compliant population...
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 4:00 PM
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Maybe we just have a comparatively compliant population...
People who live and work in a town that exists primarily for and as government are going to probably listen to the government, yeah.
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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
I'm surprised to read about all of these non compliances in other areas of the country. Do these places not have broad mask requirements for interior common spaces?

Here in Ottawa and surrounds I can't remember seeing or reading about such incidents except for maybe in the earlier stages of COVID. Mask compliance is "100%" in my travels around town, notwithstanding the odd case of someone not covering their nose.
Same here in Gatineau and most anywhere in Quebec AFAIK.

You basically won't be let in to any indoor space if you're not wearing a mask. Employees will tell you and I wouldn't be surprised if passersby intervene in support of them when someone balks.

I am sure that there are individual businesses that are more lax but these would be isolated cases. There isn't any widespread resistance and it's really just the odd pocket.

A gym in Quebec City was in the news today, actually.
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  #47  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
People who live and work in a town that exists primarily for and as government are going to probably listen to the government, yeah.
I don't think it's that because the regional composition here is more varied than you make it out to be.

I suspect there's a correlation with education levels and socio-economics.
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  #48  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Vorkuta View Post
I suspect anxiety that has been amplified by the pandemic is causing these (and many others) to manifest their desire to "take back control" in different ways. Some by blaming/scapegoating others (your first example) and some by insulating themselves from all possible risk (your second). I personally have seen a few of both extremes too.
Sorry if my 2nd example was not written so well, but he's more critical of public health officials, calling for lockdowns and shutdowns, and so on. Like hindsight is 20/20 man, calm down. I don't know how he lives his personal life, I can only assume in a bubble given how he posts on social media.
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  #49  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
I'm surprised to read about all of these non compliances in other areas of the country. Do these places not have broad mask requirements for interior common spaces?

Here in Ottawa and surrounds I can't remember seeing or reading about such incidents except for maybe in the earlier stages of COVID. Mask compliance is "100%" in my travels around town, notwithstanding the odd case of someone not covering their nose.

Maybe we just have a comparatively compliant population...
In Vancouver I have yet to see somebody not wearing a mask indoors. They stick out like a sore thumb of course. I haven't seen anybody asked to leave either.

I have had to say "back up" a few times to people in lineups. For christ's sake it's been a year and there are markings on the floor. Why is that part still so tough for people?
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 4:57 PM
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Mask compliance is pretty much universal at the places I go in KW to the point that I can't remember the last person I saw who wasn't wearing a mask in an enclosed public space.
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  #51  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I expect - and welcome - about 5% dissent to a popular course of action, no matter how "open and shut" or controversial that course of action might be.
This applies to scientists too. There are people who are completely shocked that scientists were not all on the same page with the pandemic even though the interpretation of what was going on and the majority opinion on the best course of action has at times shifted dramatically. In most public health areas that quality of evidence guiding decisions is not great (e.g. somebody puts two masks on a mannequin and measures aerosols artificially sprayed through it, Twitter blows up, Fauci starts extolling the virtues of double masks that nobody thought of before yesterday).

People often conflate science with scientists and scientific communities. There can be a lot of policing of ideas and false consensus in scientific communities and the real live humans in them are often motivated by factors other than scientific truth, like money and careerism. And most of the time scientific expertise doesn't really directly translate into knowledge about societal-level outcomes; value judgements have to be mixed in to come up with action.

I worry that the range of tolerable opinions is narrowing and a lot of people are not even happy with that 5%. I also notice that dissenting opinions and ideas are often referred to as "dangerous". As if your crazy uncle has to shut up because he might sway the WHO or Theresa Tam and ruin everything. I think your view of dissent as a natural part of a free and open society that works its way toward reasonable equilibria makes a lot more sense and is likely to work better in the long run. I think superficial policed consensus often gives a false sense of buy-in and optimality, that the things we are doing really are the best and not just something we rapidly randomly settled on because of social pressure.

I try to have a life and let live attitude about this stuff. I don't agree with people who think that vaccines are highly dangerous or will cause autism but I don't cut them off. I've had a few interactions where people have (in person) spoken about their hesitation around getting vaccinated and I just kind of shrugged, talked about what I knew, and urged them to talk to a doctor and press the doctor for details about their particular questions (not just make a pronouncement). I wonder how many people would have considered these crazy anti-vax interactions and cut them off or responded in a generic way without listening.

Last edited by someone123; Mar 30, 2021 at 5:15 PM.
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  #52  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 5:12 PM
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Once you realize consensus and truth are not the same thing you look at society and group behaviour a little more skeptically.
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
This applies to scientists too. There are people who are completely shocked that scientists were not all on the same page with the pandemic even though the interpretation of what was going on and the majority opinion on the best course of action has at times shifted dramatically. In most public health areas that quality of evidence guiding decisions is not great (e.g. somebody puts two masks on a mannequin and measures aerosols artificially sprayed through it, Twitter blows up, Fauci starts extolling the virtues of double masks that nobody thought of before yesterday).

People often conflate science with scientists and scientific communities. There can be a lot of policing of ideas and false consensus in scientific communities and the real live humans in them are often motivated by factors other than scientific truth, like money and careerism. And most of the time scientific expertise doesn't really directly translate into knowledge about societal-level outcomes; value judgements have to be mixed in to come up with action.

I worry that the range of tolerable opinions is narrowing and a lot of people are not even happy with that 5%. I also notice that dissenting opinions and ideas are often referred to as "dangerous". As if your crazy uncle has to shut up because he might sway the WHO or Theresa Tam and ruin everything. I think your view of dissent as a natural part of a free and open society that works its way toward reasonable equilibria makes a lot more sense and is likely to work better in the long run. I think superficial policed consensus often gives a false sense of buy-in and optimality, that the things we are doing really are the best and not just something we rapidly randomly settled on because of social pressure.
This is a massive and unprecedented intrusion on people's liberties. If it were passively accepted by everyone, with no dissent or resistance whatever, something would be wrong with our society. It's like J.S. Woodsworth standing alone in Parliament to vote against entry into World War II -- wrong, but also a relief to see that a policy so serious and so complex in its implications can be and is openly criticized in our country rather than acceded to by every last one of us.
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I worry that the range of tolerable opinions is narrowing and a lot of people are not even happy with that 5%. I also notice that dissenting opinions and ideas are often referred to as "dangerous". As if your crazy uncle has to shut up because he might sway the WHO or Theresa Tam and ruin everything. I think your view of dissent as a natural part of a free and open society that works its way toward reasonable equilibria makes a lot more sense and is likely to work better in the long run. I think superficial policed consensus often gives a false sense of buy-in and optimality, that the things we are doing really are the best and not just something we rapidly randomly settled on because of social pressure.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, being critical of or in disagreement with government policy can now be a bit of a social taboo rather than a necessary feature of our democracy. They're the experts so how would you know better?

I got in trouble with some friends & family when I casually expressed disagreement about Ontario's new lockdown measures last fall (which essentially amounted to shutting down restaurants and small businesses - despite a lack of evidence that they were responsible for a significant share of the spread - while everything else including big box retail was still carrying on business-as-usual). A lot of "so you're fine with killing grandma for a haircut"-type accusations and comparisons to Donald Trump.

Something about COVID has robbed us of our ability for healthy disagreement. Thankfully this seems to be on the wane somewhat as even the most righteous adherents have become a bit more libertine about it.
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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 5:21 PM
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You guys seem to have forgotten conscription and rationing. And internment camps.
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  #56  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
This is a massive and unprecedented intrusion on people's liberties. If it were passively accepted by everyone, with no dissent or resistance whatever, something would be wrong with our society. It's like J.S. Woodsworth standing alone in Parliament to vote against entry into World War II -- wrong, but also a relief to see that a policy so serious and so complex in its implications can be and is openly criticized in our country rather than acceded to by every last one of us.
The idea that there could be limits to government intervention seemed to fall away quickly when the pandemic started, just a few weeks after a time when the dominant opinion was that SARS-CoV-2 wasn't such a big deal and it would be xenophobic to close the borders with China.

This makes events like the world wars much easier to understand. We are not far away from them in terms of social development. From a historical perspective, SARS-CoV-2 is not a very big threat.

Also worth noting that Western democracies have a bunch of enemies that try to manipulate these dynamics.
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  #57  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
They're the experts so how would you know better?
I read a great quote along the lines of "back in 2015, we were so impressed with ourselves when our predictions beat the experts, and now in 2020 we ask if the experts are doing okay".
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  #58  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 5:52 PM
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Covid and it's consequences.
Are you referring to the health/medical consequences or the social/political/economic consequences of lockdown legislation? I feel like in my case it's been the latter more than the former. My own parents (god love them) have a completely different perspective of the consequences of lockdowns and the ever-so-shifting goalposts over the past year that it's disappointing they cannot look at things from that context; they watch CBC everyday and talk about 'new variants' and '5 new cases' etc but don't understand why their 3 sons are all suffering massive financial and career hardships & uncertainty. Both my parents raised my siblings and I in a lower-middle class household in rural Nova Scotia, yet they both retired at 63 and don't seem to have a clue of what's going on outside of their TV/Twitter bubble.
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  #59  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 6:52 PM
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Nope, I’m more pro-vaccine than anyone. I just find it amusing that people who claim to preach tolerance are by far the most intolerant and they don’t even know it.
Being tolerant of others for things such as the colour of their skin, their sexual orientation or their religion is not the same as tolerating reckless actions by a group of people who don’t give a shit about anyone but themselves and their perceived ‘Freedom’. Am I free to endanger others by drinking and driving or putting myself at risk by not wearing a seatbelt? Sure, but there are consequences. Behaviour is different than things you can’t help such as your sexual orientation.
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  #60  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2021, 6:57 PM
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I still think Canada seems remarkably tolerant of COVID restrictions. There are getting to be some very large anti-lockdown protests in London, Berlin and even a little here, where we never locked down.
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