DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Matt

Denver has really been hazy lately, but alas...

Originally Posted by BG918

And yes it’s been really hazy in Denver lately. And bone dry. The monsoon was basically non-existent this summer I’m worried about fire danger heading into the fall.

It has been a funky, crazy summer on a number of fronts... but sticking with the climate/weather, partly it's that time of year.

Interestingly, Phoenix recently experienced the hottest July on record. Yesterday, Phoenix set a new record for number of days of 110 degrees or higher. We're getting a one day break before it's back over 110 degrees for the foreseeable future (week to ten days).

This summer has also been unique for its total lack of monsoonal rain storms in Phoenix. Generally, the SW and inter-mountain region including Colorado has seen little rain. The drought maps are flashing.


The most important development decision recently was outside of the Denver metro


Photo credit: Grace Hood/CPR News

Boulder County’s Gross Reservoir Can Proceed With Expansion Following Lawsuit
July 17, 2020 By Corey H. Jones/CPR

Federal officials have given the go-ahead to expand Gross Reservoir in Boulder County. That means Denver Water has overcome a huge hurdle in its effort to increase storage capacity. Gross Reservoir provides water to 1.5 million Front Range customers.

“Expanding Gross Reservoir is a critical project to ensure a secure water supply for nearly a quarter of the state’s population,” Denver Water CEO Jim Lochhead said in a statement. “The project provides the system balance, additional storage and resiliency needed for our existing customers as well as a growing population.”

Not unlike with the "Central 70" project of I-70 the environmental whack jobs have cost Denver taxpayers or in this case Denver Water payers, lots and lots of money from both the expensive process demands of endless red tape PLUS the cost of construction going up, up and away in the interim.

IIRC the Denver Water Board originally anticipated construction starting in 2012, then 2014.

It’s been a long road for the utility, which began the permitting process for the expansion seventeen years ago. Denver Water plans to finish the design next year, followed by four years of construction.

For those unfamiliar, the Denver Water Board spent years negotiating with the Western Slope (including all the environmental groups) before coming to a very comprehensive agreement for both protections and for improvements on the Western Slope.

https://www.denverwater.org/your-wat...tive-agreement

The Colorado River Cooperative Agreement is effective, as of Sept. 26, 2013, with signatures of all 18 partners complete.

The agreement ushers in a new era of cooperation between Denver Water and West Slope water providers, local governments and several ski areas. The overall goal of the agreement is to protect watersheds in the Colorado River Basin while allowing Denver Water to develop future water supplies.

The agreement is the result of more than five years of negotiations and creates a spirit of cooperation instead of litigation over water resources.

Except environmental groups payed little mind to this agreement and did their usual senseless lawsuits against anybody they could think to name. And just like with Central 70, it was a big waste of time and resources while construction costs continued to escalate.

[mhays]

I don't know anything about this project, but when it comes to protecting wilderness areas, I'm definitely an "environmental whack job" as you put it.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by mhays

I don't know anything about this project, but when it comes to protecting wilderness areas, I'm definitely an "environmental whack job" as you put it.

They're just protecting the wilderness with a bigger water blanket is all...

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by mhays

I don't know anything about this project, but when it comes to protecting wilderness areas, I'm definitely an "environmental whack job" as you put it.

If you define wilderness as a existing man-made damn flooding a mountain valley surrounded by $1M homes, than I suppose it's wilderness.

This is Boulder NIMBY-ism at it's finest and their typical, "f**k you, I've got mine" twisted hippie logic.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

They're just protecting the wilderness with a bigger water blanket is all...

Simply put as no ordinary engineer could.

IIRC, it was you, bunt and wong who taught me everything I knew about this - at a time when I knew nothing.

Btw, didn't you once tell me that you lived nearby South Mountain in Phoenix?

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I've got mine" twisted hippie logic.

I resemble that...

"We hippies" were the original environmentalists; the EPA was created in 1970 which was my junior year at CU and yes we were invested.

Interestingly, my junior year I lived up Foumile Canyon. The property had an A-Frame cabin where we lived; next door was a larger cabin where three people lived plus Marcus whenever he was in town. From Cali, Marcus would fly drugs into Boulder; he also would bring newly released records from his Cali store. Needless to say I learned a lot about music during that time. More interestingly Marcus was one of the original "pranksters": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furthur_(bus)

Furthur is a 1939 International Harvester school bus purchased by author Ken Kesey in 1964 to carry his "Merry Band of Pranksters" cross-country, filming their counterculture adventures as they went.
......
The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test is a nonfiction book by Tom Wolfe that was published in 1968... Wolfe presents an as-if-firsthand account of the experiences of Ken Kesey and his band of Merry Pranksters, who traveled across the country in a colorfully painted school bus

Ken Kesey is also well-known for writing "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by mhays

I don't know anything about this project, but when it comes to protecting wilderness areas, I'm definitely an "environmental whack job" as you put it.

You could well be an environmental whack job for all I know.

The issues relate to disrupting the natural flows of the Colorado River watershed, blah blah blah. Except that water from Colorado River ends up in Lake Powell and Lake Mead where it is allocated to seven states according to the Colorado River Compact from 1922 and any subsequent amendments. If any water is left it ends up in the Gulf of Mexico.

Colorado has never come close to utilizing what it's allocation is. From the state's perspective, what does it matter if some of the allocation is diverted to the Eastern Slope to provide water to ~25% of the state's population. Denver Water will only divert additional water during years when there is an excess spring runoff.

The other critical issue isn't so important as it will never happen because it never has. What if some environmental whack job blew a hole in Chatfield Dam and Reservoir. What would Denver do for water in that event that will never happen until it does happen?

[tommyboy733]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

but sticking with the climate/weather, partly it's that time of year.

Actually rainfall on the Front Range is down about 40% from normal. Here's this chart showing the comparison to average.

Denver Rainfall

[IMG]Denver Precipitation by Tom Conley, on Flickr[/IMG]


Not sure what your point is about Phoenix, other than that region is borderline uninhabitable.

We humans take so much the Colorado River has not reached the gulf of Mexico for 20 years. They've done some experimental releases in the springs since 2014 to try to mimic the springs rushes, but the flows are about 1% of the river's historic flow and only last 8 weeks. This is also to flush salt into the ocean.

Most of the time the salt trickle that is left after us humans are done dries up in the desert between Yuma and the Gulf near Guadalupe Victoria, Mexico

[BG918]

Originally Posted by tommyboy733

Actually rainfall on the Front Range is down about 40% from normal. Here's this chart showing the comparison to average.

Wow I knew Denver was a dry climate but 14" of rain as normal is crazy, and only 6" so far this year. Parts of Oklahoma and Arkansas just got that much rain yesterday in one night

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by BG918

Wow I knew Denver was a dry climate but 14" of rain as normal is crazy, and only 6" so far this year. Parts of Oklahoma and Arkansas just got that much rain yesterday in one night

Lot's of places get in a day or week what we get annually. Basically none of the trees on the front range would be here except in the creek beds, it's just too dry.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The other critical issue isn't so important as it will never happen because it never has. What if some environmental whack job blew a hole in Chatfield Dam and Reservoir. What would Denver do for water in that event that will never happen until it does happen?

1) Chatfield isn't a major water supply reservoir- it's primary purpose is flood control. Denver Water primarily uses it as an exchange to maintain water flows from upstream water storage reservoirs and it account for about 4% of Denver Water's capacity.


2) When environmental whack jobs have access to the types of explosives and delivery methods that can breach a modern earthen reservoir such as Chatfield it's more likely they'll direct it towards a target like Hoover or Glen Canyon Damn. Hell, you can get a truck into the turbine house at the base of one of those getting a bit further into the structure.


End digression.

[DenvertoLA]

taking the bait on wilderness

it is quite pathetic that Colorado only has around 3.5 million acres of designated wilderness when it touts such an outdoor/ recreation/ hunting/ fishing/ etc. life style.

With such an influx of people to the state, it best expand on what lands still qualify for that title while they still do. (If Colorado wants to maintain that reputation.)

I was sad to see that Cory Gardner didn't get something into the latest lands package that Trump signed. He's vuuuuuuulneeeraaable. Delivering a new wilderness area for the hunting/fishing community would have helped him.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

Delivering a new wilderness area for the hunting/fishing community would have helped him.

Not sure I agree with this. Designated wilderness is awfully hard to hunt. Carrying out hundreds of pounds of animal over long distances without the help of anything motorized ain't easy. Most hunters would prefer it be public, roadless is maybe fine too, but open to ATVs. At least, I don't think walking wilderness wins a lot of hunter votes.

Now, the REI crowd, most of whom have never shot a rifle, that's different... but they're probably not voting for Gardner either way.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Not sure I agree with this. Designated wilderness is awfully hard to hunt. Carrying out hundreds of pounds of animal over long distances without the help of anything motorized ain't easy. Most hunters would prefer it be public, roadless is maybe fine too, but open to ATVs. At least, I don't think walking wilderness wins a lot of hunter votes.

Not that I would want to field dress an elk and then hump out multiple loads of meat, but it would certainly up the macho factor... throw on 75-100 lbs of meat along with your kit and step out and you beard would instantly be 45% fuller.

[The Dirt]

Welp, it sounds like Zia Sunnyside - the large development over by the 41st & Fox station decided to convert from for-sale condos to rental apartments.

I got the info via e-mail, not the article below.


https://denverite.com/2017/11/24/sun...os-confluence/

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

Welp, it sounds like Zia Sunnyside - the large development over by the 41st & Fox station decided to convert from for-sale condos to rental apartments.

I got the info via e-mail, not the article below.


https://denverite.com/2017/11/24/sun...os-confluence/

Not surprising. I've heard Lakehouse is really struggling and Edge LoHi is only doing ok, granted both are trying to sell through a pandemic. Strangely enough, the SFH market in Denver metro is still red hot. Condos are just tough, you're talking $600/sf+ for a tiny amount of space. How many people are really interested in that AND can afford it? Condos used to be an entry level option on the continuum of housing, now they are just a nice thing to have for the wealthy but serve no real purpose within the housing spectrum in today's market - perhaps condos would serve a purpose by opening up suburban inventory if the boomers would sell their suburban mansions and only live in the condos, but most the old timers seem to be keeping both (for now). I guess they have too many classic cars to store in their 4 car garages stacked on top of the pile of material garbage they've been accumulating for 60 years.

[The Dirt]

The condo prices are astronomical. A 2 bed 3 bath unit in Lake House is going for $1.8 million. Not to mention probably a $600+ monthly HOA for all of the amenities. Their lowest priced unit is $525K for a 1 bed 1 bath. This part of Sloan's Lake isn't exactly Cherry Creek (yet) either, with a much sketchier surrounding area and way less neighborhood amenities.

My 2 bed 1 bath unit in Uptown would sell for roughly $410K right now, and I'm 4 blocks from downtown. I just don't see a big market for $500K+ single bedroom condos for anyone that actually lives in it full time.

I've heard that Zocalo's 17th and Newton tower is also pretty much stalled for good.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by tommyboy733

Actually rainfall on the Front Range is down about 40% from normal.

Not sure what your point is about Phoenix, other than that region is borderline uninhabitable.

Appreciate your knowledge about the Colorado River.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Monsoon

The North American monsoon, variously known as the Southwest monsoon, the Mexican monsoon, the New Mexican monsoon, or the Arizona monsoon,[1] is a pattern of pronounced increase in thunderstorms and rainfall over large areas of the southwestern United States and northwestern Mexico, typically occurring between July and mid September.

Denver/Colorado can benefit from these same sources of rain at this time of year.

So far as being "borderline uninhabitable" I actually wish more people felt like you.

Amid high demand, some Valley homebuilders consider lotteries for buyers
Aug 6, 2020 By Angela Gonzales – Senior Reporter, Phoenix Business Journal

Part of this is that "affordability" is never uninhabitable. Ofc, many love the desert landscape. It's grown on me but not an original fan.

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

taking the bait on wilderness

it is quite pathetic that Colorado only has around 3.5 million acres of designated wilderness when it touts such an outdoor/ recreation/ hunting/ fishing/ etc. life style.

With such an influx of people to the state, it best expand on what lands still qualify for that title while they still do. (If Colorado wants to maintain that reputation.

Maybe somebody else knows this but I'd guess that a significant percentage of suitable land is already either Federally or State owned?

One of my favorites is the Durango to Pagosa Springs area. It's the private camping/resort areas that allow for enjoyment.

There was this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanmac.../#6574c8e925d5

New York hedge fund billionaire Louis Bacon announced his intentions Friday to donate 90,000 acres of land in Colorado toward the creation of the Sangre de Cristo Conservation Area. The donation is the "largest single conservation easement" given to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, according to U.S. Interior Secretary Ken Salazar, and will help to preserve a southern portion of the state that includes mountain grasslands, alpine forests and some of the state's highest peaks.

Just as important as anything is GOCO:

[twister244]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

The condo prices are astronomical. A 2 bed 3 bath unit in Lake House is going for $1.8 million. Not to mention probably a $600+ monthly HOA for all of the amenities. Their lowest priced unit is $525K for a 1 bed 1 bath. This part of Sloan's Lake isn't exactly Cherry Creek (yet) either, with a much sketchier surrounding area and way less neighborhood amenities.

My 2 bed 1 bath unit in Uptown would sell for roughly $410K right now, and I'm 4 blocks from downtown. I just don't see a big market for $500K+ single bedroom condos for anyone that actually lives in it full time.

I've heard that Zocalo's 17th and Newton tower is also pretty much stalled for good.

Agreed. I think the market for lower-price condos is probably fine. But yeah, if you are going to spend that much on a condo, you can get a SFH at that point.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Not surprising. I've heard Lakehouse is really struggling and Edge LoHi is only doing ok, granted both are trying to sell through a pandemic. Strangely enough, the SFH market in Denver metro is still red hot. Condos are just tough, you're talking $600/sf+ for a tiny amount of space. How many people are really interested in that AND can afford it? Condos used to be an entry level option on the continuum of housing, now they are just a nice thing to have for the wealthy but serve no real purpose within the housing spectrum in today's market - perhaps condos would serve a purpose by opening up suburban inventory if the boomers would sell their suburban mansions and only live in the condos, but most the old timers seem to be keeping both (for now). I guess they have too many classic cars to store in their 4 car garages stacked on top of the pile of material garbage they've been accumulating for 60 years.

You make some good points and I now chuckle at your "Boomer" rants.

I previously posted that SFH's are hot all over the country and demand is coming from both millennials and Gen X buyers. Gen X are also buying $million and up homes down here as 2nd homes and eventual retirement homes. These buyers are coming mostly from the upper mid-west and NE.

You are likely correct about a hesitancy to buy as it relates to cost value of limited space.

Originally Posted by The Dirt

I've heard that Zocalo's 17th and Newton tower is also pretty much stalled for good.

Weren't these supposed to be affordable units?

[The Dirt]

Yep, 50% affordable.