Your city's Jewish community

[Docere]

I haven't seen any stats on that for New York. A decade ago there were about 38,000 Syrian Jews in NYC, Long Island and Westchester, don't know how many Persian Jews there are (maybe 10,000 or so).

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The Orthodox parts of Williamsburg, Brooklyn are dominated by that housing style:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7000...7i16384!8i8192

2023-era Jewish Williamsburg is technically more in Bed Stuy. It shifted south, into the formerly industrial no-mans-land between Williamsburg and Bed Stuy, and is quickly replacing low-slung warehouses with weird-looking apartment blocks.

Are rents and construction of new housing and facilities largely subsidized by Chabad, and Chabad in turn receives donations from Jews of various denominations as well as secular Jews?

On top of housing costs, NYC has a personal income tax. How is it possible to feed a household with 6-10 children, and how is the growth of Orthodoxy sustainable not just economically but politically as well?

[Docere]

As for integration into Ashkenazi culture, I've actually noticed sort of "Hebrewization" of the diaspora over the past few decades. In Jewish neighborhoods there's fewer delis, more falafels so to speak.

[Docere]

A walk through Toronto's Orthodox Jewish section. A sort of urban/suburban hybrid. Few people are out though because it's January and there was a covid lockdown in place at the time:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRkzlejQhKc

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Docere

As for integration into Ashkenazi culture, I've actually noticed sort of "Hebrewization" of the diaspora over the past few decades. In Jewish neighborhoods there's fewer delis, more falafels so to speak.

Makes sense. With the formation of Israel, increasing interfaith marriage rates, Yiddish-speaking older generations dying off, and the Holocaust becoming more and more distant with the passage of time, Ashkenazim will eventually become more about heritage and less cultural identity not unlike Gaelic-speaking Irish Catholics or Irish- and Italian-Americans, of whom even those in Boston and NYC, respectively, are more the former.

The wrinkle though is that Jewish will always have a religious component and history that makes them a unique group, so you’ll still see secular Jews be Bar/Bat-Mitzvahed, say “Shanah Tova” during Rosh Hashanah, light candles on the menorah and spin dreidels during Hanukkah, eat latkes and say “nosh” instead of “food” every now and then, and visit Jerusalem once in their lives just so that they can check it off their bucket list as if having fulfilled a “moral obligation.” This is actually already the case for most Jewish Americans, even those in NYC.

What NYC has though is not just a large Ashkenazi Jewish population but also a dense concentration of them in Manhattan (300-315K or so) that is very tight-knit and considered “white,” while “Jews of color” (darker complexion and/or have non-Israeli Middle Eastern origins, even though Mizrahim constitute the majority of Israeli Jews) a small minority in general. I think there’s a real possibility that Mizrahi Jews might be seen as too “ethnic” for assimilated Ashkenazi Jews with fairer skin. So I don’t necessarily think that you’ll see surnames like “Berman” or “Goldberg” give way to “Nitzani,” “Azulay,” or “Kashani” to a noticeable degree. But that’s not to say that everyone with those last names has a darker complexion or doesn’t have any Ashkenazi roots, either. It’s just to say that “Ashkenazi Jewish American” might as well be its own group, with “New York Ashkenazi Jew” being a subset. When I brought up LA’s large Persian Jewish population to a former colleague originally from NYC (Queens, Gen Xer who lived there in the 70s, 80s, and 90s), he mentioned that he was “used to” (I can’t remember the exact language or context of the conversation) a more Ashkenazi culture.

[Docere]

Compared to Irish and Italians, it's also easier to leave "the old country" behind because there's no nostalgia for Eastern Europe!

[Docere]

Some Canadian Jewish concentrations outside of Toronto and Montreal.

Vancouver: Oak Street corridor on the West Side

Tract 28 (Shaughnessy) 8.3%

Ottawa (two adjacent tracts):

Tract 137.05 (Centrepointe, Nepean) 10%
Tract 135.01 (Craig Henry, Nepean) 8.1%

Winnipeg: In Winnipeg's traditionally affluent south end. The community has shifted from north to south.

Tract 510.02 (Tuxedo) 32.7%
Tract 5 (South River Heights) 21.3%

Calgary (two adjacent tracts in SW Calgary):

Tract 7.02 (Pump Hill) 20.4%
Tract 7.05 (South Glenmore Park) 17.5%

Edmonton (west Edmonton):

Tract 7.02 (Westridge, Edmonton) 12.1%

Hamilton: Hamilton's Jewish community is concentrated in Westdale, an affluent community that is home to McMaster University and the suburb of Dundas.

Tract 45 (Westdale) 7.5%
Tract 133.01 (Dundas) 6.4%

[Quixote]

Just returned from Vancouver (for like the 25th time) a week ago, and yeah, I thought of this thread while traveling down Oak Street.

That area reminded me a little of Hancock Park/Windsor Square and Mid-Wilshire — a nice urban-suburban enclave in the middle of the city. It's interesting how there doesn't seem to be a Jewish presence in the North Shore, which is definitely the "favored [suburban] quarter." I gather from this that Vancouver's elite is very much WASP-dominated.

[Docere]

Van's Jewish population is quite small and more assimilated. Oak Street is really the only area with a Jewish flavor.

From 2011 (this includes Jews by religion and ethnic Jews of no religion). A bit of a concentration on the affluent West Side; about half live in the city proper.

City of Vancouver 14,325 2.4%
West Side 9,560 3.9%
Downtown peninsula 2,370 2.5%
East Side 2,395 0.9%

West Vancouver 930 2.2%
Richmond 3,540 1.8%
North Vancouver 1,290 1%

They're less than 1% of the population all of the other suburbs

https://www.jewishdatabank.org/api/d...nal+Report.pdf

[Docere]

Vancouver's wealthy districts are increasingly Chinese. Shaughnessy is about 40% Chinese for example.

In Toronto, wealthy Asians tend to bypass the old-money establishmentarian districts which tend to be WASP/Jewish.

[Quixote]

Asian immigrants, even those that are wealthy, tend not to settle in affluent Jewish areas (unless there’s also a large WASP contingent, which means that it’s not really a “Jewish area”… see Palo Alto). This seems to be true even in communities that wouldn’t have strip malls with ethnic supermarkets, restaurants, and bakeries. The Chinese opted for San Marino and South Pasadena, while Koreans decided on La Canada Flintridge and Palos Verdes. Exceptions to this are Porter Ranch and Granada Hills, although those aren’t “exclusively Jewish” like the lower SFV. You’ll never see a large (East) Asian elite in Beverly Hills or Encino.

Conversely, wealthy secular Jews seem willing to settle in newer communities much more so than legacy establishment ones dominated by WASPs. That’s why more are concentrated in south OC than places like La Canada or Pasadena, even though IMO Jews are much more likely to experience anti-Semitism in the former.

[Docere]

In Toronto's, the Yonge St.-adjacent neighborhoods like Rosedale and Lawrence Park are very WASP. Avenue Rd. is sort of the "line" between WASP and Jewish; west of Avenue Rd. is very Jewish. Heavily Jewish Forest Hill is where the favored quarter meets the Jewish Bathurst corridor. The postwar suburban Bayview-York Mills area was a sort of secondary Jewish concentration, but it's become increasingly Asian and less Jewish in recent years.

[softee]

Originally Posted by Docere

A walk through Toronto's Orthodox Jewish section. A sort of urban/suburban hybrid. Few people are out though because it's January and there was a covid lockdown in place at the time:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRkzlejQhKc

Holy blast from the past! My commentary skills have improved quite a bit since I recorded this. I'll have to go back to the neighbourhood and do an updated walk.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Docere

In Toronto's, the Yonge St.-adjacent neighborhoods like Rosedale and Lawrence Park are very WASP. Avenue Rd. is sort of the "line" between WASP and Jewish; west of Avenue Rd. is very Jewish. Heavily Jewish Forest Hill is where the favored quarter meets the Jewish Bathurst corridor. The postwar suburban Bayview-York Mills area was a sort of secondary Jewish concentration, but it's become increasingly Asian and less Jewish in recent years.

Interesting that all of the very Jewish neighborhoods you listed on the previous page are in Old Toronto (or immediately adjacent to it) and straddle two main corridors (Yonge and Bathurst), but that there is also a delineation between WASP and Jewish.

It seems that Jewish areas with white supermajorities are either predominantly WASP/gentile with Jews in the 10-25% range or Jews forming the plurality or majority at 40% or more of the population. The concept of an equally balanced Jewish-gentile area seems rare. But a scenario with an even split of, say, 35-40% would likely render the neighborhood "Jewish" in the minds of most, unless perhaps the gentile population was all but comprised of English/German/Irish.

Are there places in North America where there's not just a numerically equal balance of Jews and gentiles but also full integration like Italian/Irish with German/English in some parts of the Northeast?

[Quixote]

What's also interesting is that it appears that, historically, Jews are just as likely as white gentiles to flee when minority groups move in. However, white gentiles seem more open-minded about settling in (i.e. gentrifying) urban communities of color. In Silver Lake and Echo Park, which are undoubtedly more tied to Hollywood (while places like Highland Park and Eagle Rock have a strong Pasadena pull), the gentrifiers seem to be largely your typical German/English/Irish/Scottish mutts. Williamsburg might be an exception, but I think it has always been pretty white.

[Crawford]

My sense is that Jewish white flight preceded general white ethnic flight. It was definitely the case in NYC, where places like Canarsie and Bensonhurst lost Jews long before racial change. Italians and other white ethnics stayed on. I believe some of the movement was due to postwar upward mobility and community focus on top-tier education outcomes.

In Detroit, the more affluent Jewish-WASP Northwest Side underwent racial change much earlier than the very working class white ethnic East Side. There were still majority white East Side Detroit neighborhoods into the early 2000's, while Northwest Detroit was almost entirely majority black by about 1980.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Williamsburg might be an exception, but I think it has always been pretty white.

Williamsburg, Brooklyn hasn't had a large contingent of secular Jews in probably 60-70 years. The Orthodox community is of relatively recent vintage and doesn't really overlap with the more affluent secular white populations. There's a bit of Hispanic overlap, as South Williamsburg had Puerto Rican and Dominican inmigration in the 1950's and 60's.

East Williamsburg also has a surprisingly intact Little Italy area, with grandmas still cooking Sunday gravy on the sidewalk. I was amazed that it's still around, given all the changes.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

My sense is that Jewish white flight preceded general white ethnic flight. It was definitely the case in NYC, where places like Canarsie and Bensonhurst lost Jews long before racial change. Italians and other white ethnics stayed on. I believe some of the movement was due to postwar upward mobility and community focus on top-tier education outcomes.

In Detroit, the more affluent Jewish-WASP Northwest Side underwent racial change much earlier than the very working class white ethnic East Side. There were still majority white East Side Detroit neighborhoods into the early 2000's, while Northwest Detroit was almost entirely majority black by about 1980.

I know it's been mentioned before, but I think a lot of the historic transition of Jewish areas to black areas has to do with the legacy of racial covenants, which typically excluded both black people and Jews from owning land in many neighborhoods. The Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional in 1948, but 10-20 years later Jews remembered they were discriminated against in identical manners, and were more willing to sell to African Americans.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I know it's been mentioned before, but I think a lot of the historic transition of Jewish areas to black areas has to do with the legacy of racial covenants, which typically excluded both black people and Jews from owning land in many neighborhoods. The Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional in 1948, but 10-20 years later Jews remembered they were discriminated against in identical manners, and were more willing to sell to African Americans.

This is probably a big factor, and (if I may generalize) the Jewish community was less overtly hostile to black immigration, and there were always Jewish-Black economic and social linkages.

That said, there was substantial Jewish flight in areas not undergoing racial change. Bensonhurst is nowhere near any black neighborhoods and never had a sizable black community, yet the secular Jews largely left.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Interesting that all of the very Jewish neighborhoods you listed on the previous page are in Old Toronto (or immediately adjacent to it) and straddle two main corridors (Yonge and Bathurst), but that there is also a delineation between WASP and Jewish.

There's also a large Jewish population in York Region north of Toronto. Thornhill is the biggest Jewish concentration in the GTA.

City of Vaughan 42,395 13.2%

Thornhill (L4J postal code) 31,980 42.9%
Maple (L6A postal code) 7,995 9%

City of Markham 4,850 1.4%

Thornhill (L3T postal code) 4,175 8.3%

Richmond Hill 8,585 4.3%


The Vaughan side of Thornhill (a continuation of the Bathurst corridor) is really Jewish, some of it was actually built by an Orthodox developer aimed at the Orthodox Jewish community:

https://rshare.library.torontomu.ca/...uburb/14654019

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7993...7i16384!8i8192