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  #19661  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2021, 11:01 AM
10023 10023 is offline
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Originally Posted by thegoatman View Post
Other than that god-awful beige wrapping on the building, this is solid infill.
Yeah the painted concrete is really awful. Even the faux-brick one gets in London (or I see in many West Loop projects) is far better.

As for the West Loop, I like that it’s turning into a mid-rise district. Skyscrapers are great but their actual purposes are concentrating office density around transit hubs/CBDs (like the Loop) and providing views for residential units (like all up and down the lakefront). The West Loop has neither but it has a lot, albeit a declining number, of vacant parcels. More complete and broader coverage with 12-15 story buildings, all the way out to Damen at least, is better than a handful of skyscrapers and other underdeveloped parcels. Plus it leaves more light for outdoor restaurant patios which the Loop doesn’t have because of too many highrises.
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  #19662  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2021, 2:23 PM
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  #19663  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2021, 6:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
As for the West Loop, I like that it’s turning into a mid-rise district. Skyscrapers are great but their actual purposes are concentrating office density around transit hubs/CBDs (like the Loop) and providing views for residential units (like all up and down the lakefront). The West Loop has neither but it has a lot, albeit a declining number, of vacant parcels.
West (and slightly north) of the city has some of the best available views of our growing skyline. The lake is iconic but our city scape should be enough to justify taller residential developments. So many people I talk to (mid to late 20s, good paying jobs) either have moved or would move to West Loop if it was less expensive. Keep em coming & taller
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  #19664  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2021, 6:11 PM
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Spotted another new tower crane going up today in the IMD-ish area. Maybe the Marquette apartment project?
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  #19665  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 3:42 AM
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Spotted another new tower crane going up today in the IMD-ish area. Maybe the Marquette apartment project?
Yup, exactly what you saw. It's a tall one too, looks like it's at it's full height and is free standing.
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  #19666  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 6:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Toasty Joe View Post
West (and slightly north) of the city has some of the best available views of our growing skyline. The lake is iconic but our city scape should be enough to justify taller residential developments. So many people I talk to (mid to late 20s, good paying jobs) either have moved or would move to West Loop if it was less expensive. Keep em coming & taller
Building taller buildings will not make the West Loop less expensive. Unless they are Chinese-style commie block highrises, such buildings would actually be more expensive than midrise infill. And there is still plenty of space for midrise infill.
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  #19667  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 6:36 PM
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and as one of the most centrally-located parts of the city, the west loop really shouldn't be inexpensive.

chicago has a hundred other more affordable neighborhoods to call home.

it happened to me and my wife. we loved living in our west loop condo back in our DINK days, but right before our first child was born, we moved up to edgewater where we more than doubled our sq. footage for the same price as our west loop highrise shoebox.
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  #19668  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 8:09 PM
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Building taller buildings will not make the West Loop less expensive. Unless they are Chinese-style commie block highrises, such buildings would actually be more expensive than midrise infill. And there is still plenty of space for midrise infill.
My in laws own multiple properties in Shanghai - 1 of them is a ~600 sq ft 1 bedroom apartment at the very end of a train line (10 minute walk) there. It's in a "commie block" building but a midrise. It's 15.5 miles from all the famous skyscrapers in the skyline. It is currently worth over $800,000 USD.

Their main home is less "commie" looking in a mid rise - only 2 units per floor and they have a 3 bedroom place. It's 50 miles from all the famous skyscrapers but still worth over $600,000. That's like paying $600,000 for a normal 3 bedroom condo in Crystal Lake.
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  #19669  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 8:53 PM
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My in laws own multiple properties in Shanghai - 1 of them is a ~600 sq ft 1 bedroom apartment at the very end of a train line (10 minute walk) there. It's in a "commie block" building but a midrise. It's 15.5 miles from all the famous skyscrapers in the skyline. It is currently worth over $800,000 USD.

Their main home is less "commie" looking in a mid rise - only 2 units per floor and they have a 3 bedroom place. It's 50 miles from all the famous skyscrapers but still worth over $600,000. That's like paying $600,000 for a normal 3 bedroom condo in Crystal Lake.
What’s that valuation based on? Because Chinese real estate is about to hit the skids in a big way (and probably has already, but it will take a while for the data to leak out). Chinese real estate and especially Shanghai has been a massive bubble for years.

Anyway, that’s not the point. The point is that the only way to make highly desirable neighbourhoods cheaper is not simply to build more housing, but to make them less desirable. So you can actually build your way to affordability, but only by building so much affordable housing that affluent people don’t want to live there anymore. It’s a bit of a scorched earth approach, of course.


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Originally Posted by bcp View Post
nothing will make the west loop less expensive, except a massive economic reset
Correct.
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  #19670  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 9:44 PM
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What’s that valuation based on? Because Chinese real estate is about to hit the skids in a big way (and probably has already, but it will take a while for the data to leak out). Chinese real estate and especially Shanghai has been a massive bubble for years.
I don't know what it's based ON but I know the valuation is from the last handful of months. My in laws paid probably no more than $200K for these 2 properties combined and they're worth around $1.5M total. Even if the property values halved from right now, they could still over triple their money from when they originally bought them.

Yes, the market in China has been insane for a long time and way out of reach for most people there. If we think what happened in some places in the US is crazy - just look to over there relative to the median income. I think the median home price in some good districts right now in the big cities is literally something like 25X the median income. My in laws had some friends who kept waiting it out 20 or so years ago and the prices went so insane that they never were able to afford buying anything, while my in laws said screw it and were able to buy multiple properties despite having similar paying jobs as their friends. Solidly middle class and yet their friends still cannot afford to buy something decent even 50 miles from the center of the city.

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Anyway, that’s not the point. The point is that the only way to make highly desirable neighbourhoods cheaper is not simply to build more housing, but to make them less desirable. So you can actually build your way to affordability, but only by building so much affordable housing that affluent people don’t want to live there anymore. It’s a bit of a scorched earth approach, of course.
Have you actually ever been to those areas in Shanghai that are full of "commie level high rises" in person, recently, or are you just looking at photos of the high rises from the 10th floor on up? Because I have been to these areas, multiple times - my in laws' neighborhood has some of that going on (their area are midrises though) maybe 5 minutes walk away and it's not what you think on the actual ground level.

Some of these areas are full of pretty nice restaurants that are just as nice as your average downtown Chicago restaurant (not the Michelin starred ones but the regular but decent places). My in laws have a cobblestone street full of restaurants and shopping a 5 minute walk away. it's right in the middle of those "commie looking high rises." Their neighborhood also has many parks, grocery stores, and even zen gardens and ponds with tons of greenery. It's far from not desirable and even though it's basically as far as Crystal Lake is from downtown Chicago, it has streets that have just as many restaurants on them as parts of the core of Chicago.

if you've never been to some of these areas in person and are only looking at pictures of a bunch of not great looking, identical high rises then you'd get the wrong idea about how some of them actually look at the ground level in the districts.



Pretty typical "suburban" district in Shanghai where I linked this to in the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq08bvLp2mM&t=700

A look into what it's like in the middle of one of these high rise districts in a non-first class city:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Tfl6O85jfM&t=290




Also funny since we just moved back (my wife never lived in Chicago). This last weekend we were on Belmont Ave in the Southport area eating. My wife randomly said "these buildings remind me of China" and then told me all the 4-5 story non descript newer condo buildings on the north side of Chicago remind her of some areas of "second class suburban cities" in China. Not a bad thing but a funny remark from her. Years ago in South Loop she made a similar remark asking me if the South Loop was designed by people from China.
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Last edited by marothisu; Nov 11, 2021 at 10:25 PM.
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  #19671  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
Pretty typical "suburban" district in Shanghai where I linked this to in the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq08bvLp2mM&t=700
This makes me appreciate Chicago architecture so much more......

And I though Chicago had a beige problem with their River North highrises......
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  #19672  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 10:31 PM
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This makes me appreciate Chicago architecture so much more......

And I though Chicago had a beige problem with their River North highrises......
No doubt, but everyone has to remember that the appreciation for architecture there these days is much different and much less than what we have here in parts of the US. Culturally they care about some other things more. As my wife put it, most people don't care how the buildings really look for the most part. They're more into the green space and amenities (i.e. restaurants) that you can walk to or take a short drive to way more than the architecture. There's a reason why all the buildings look similar too but yet there's still loads of green space and businesses in the middle of them.

Even though the architecture sucks, for the most part, these areas even if built in the US would be far from undesirable. They have tons of green space as well as water (i.e. ponds and sometimes rivers, etc) and they have an ample amount of places to eat and shop, along with various nodes for public transit. My in laws' main area is near a commuter rail but there's some of these districts that hook up to the city trains. These areas are also usually pretty clean or very clean.

These areas have ample amount of business, places to eat, etc and are not undesirable places to live or even close to it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Tfl6O85jfM&t=290s


P.S. Go to Hong Kong. That has the worst "dense" high rise collection of "this doesn't look great..." of any city I've ever been to.
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  #19673  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 11:11 PM
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  #19674  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2021, 12:11 AM
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Found a newer render for 808 Cleveland



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  #19675  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2021, 2:18 AM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Building taller buildings will not make the West Loop less expensive. Unless they are Chinese-style commie block highrises, such buildings would actually be more expensive than midrise infill. And there is still plenty of space for midrise infill.
I was thinking more along the lines that they may very well migrate there when they've saved enough and/or a promotion down the road. Just anecdotal evidence as to WL housing demand
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  #19676  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2021, 6:34 AM
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As much as everybody hated the beige in the earlier renders of 808, I actually didn't mind the podium because the parking was hidden and it wasn't monstrous.

Well, not anymore.

In the long run, if these buildings ever decide they don't need the parking anymore, how practical is it to convert it into other uses? Are there any existing examples of this being done well?
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  #19677  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2021, 7:00 AM
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As much as everybody hated the beige in the earlier renders of 808, I actually didn't mind the podium because the parking was hidden and it wasn't monstrous.

Well, not anymore.

In the long run, if these buildings ever decide they don't need the parking anymore, how practical is it to convert it into other uses? Are there any existing examples of this being done well?
Depends on if the parking slab is flat. Ramps can be removed, but if the entire floor plate is sloped, and conversion from parking to active would be unlikely.
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  #19678  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2021, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Klippenstein View Post
As much as everybody hated the beige in the earlier renders of 808, I actually didn't mind the podium because the parking was hidden and it wasn't monstrous.

Well, not anymore.

In the long run, if these buildings ever decide they don't need the parking anymore, how practical is it to convert it into other uses? Are there any existing examples of this being done well?
1330 W Fulton - the whole thing was a stalled parking garage - finished off with mostly office with some parking in the back ( they kept the ramps ).

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  #19679  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2021, 2:39 PM
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Depends on if the parking slab is flat. Ramps can be removed, but if the entire floor plate is sloped, and conversion from parking to active would be unlikely.
I have noticed more buildings providing speed ramps, and the parking area actually flat which is good for future re-use. Of course there are way more factors that go into it - plumbing stacks are a big one. It's hard to add those later especially if the ground floor is occupied with a retail tenant.

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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
The point is that the only way to make highly desirable neighbourhoods cheaper is not simply to build more housing, but to make them less desirable. So you can actually build your way to affordability, but only by building so much affordable housing that affluent people don’t want to live there anymore.
You assume that neighborhoods are intrinsically desirable, but in US cities there's a lot of spillover effect. Wicker Park became desirable because Lincoln Park got too expensive, then Bucktown became desirable because Wicker Park got too expensive, and so on. In those cases, adding housing at the higher levels of the chain reduces pressure on the lower levels by redirecting the demand.

Also, you can't totally discount supply-side effects. If you add a lot of inventory to a given market then landlords will have to compete for tenants, and will lower rents as a result (in the US they're more likely to offer incentives like a free month of rent, which is effectively the same thing).
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  #19680  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2021, 7:23 PM
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