HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #7141  
Old Posted May 18, 2022, 3:33 AM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 33,618
Another insightful article. But I wonder if that ship is sailing to some extent now that the commuting hordes are starting to return to downtown Winnipeg and parking lots are not quite as empty as they were a year or two ago?

Incidentally, I went by the development site mentioned in the article at Donald and St. Mary recently. I was impressed that the pilings go right up to the Credit Union Building to the south... it will add some badly needed streetwall to that desolate stretch of Donald.

I'm not sure if there's anything to my theory, but you would think that as the number of surface parking lots dwindles as they are lost to development, their value should increase thereby encouraging more development. The extreme Canadian examples would be Toronto and Vancouver, where theoretically surface lot demand should be through the roof yet they hardly exist because the land is simply too valuable. Obviously we aren't at that stage yet here in Winnipeg, but every surface lot developed is at least a step in that direction.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7142  
Old Posted May 18, 2022, 4:26 PM
cheswick's Avatar
cheswick cheswick is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South Kildonan
Posts: 2,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Another insightful article. But I wonder if that ship is sailing to some extent now that the commuting hordes are starting to return to downtown Winnipeg and parking lots are not quite as empty as they were a year or two ago?

Incidentally, I went by the development site mentioned in the article at Donald and St. Mary recently. I was impressed that the pilings go right up to the Credit Union Building to the south... it will add some badly needed streetwall to that desolate stretch of Donald.

I'm not sure if there's anything to my theory, but you would think that as the number of surface parking lots dwindles as they are lost to development, their value should increase thereby encouraging more development. The extreme Canadian examples would be Toronto and Vancouver, where theoretically surface lot demand should be through the roof yet they hardly exist because the land is simply too valuable. Obviously we aren't at that stage yet here in Winnipeg, but every surface lot developed is at least a step in that direction.
Well the value of the lots would certainly increase. With less parking available with lot conversions, the current lots could then charge more since the supply of parking spots diminishes concurrently with demand increasing since there are more people around cause of the new developments, so their value increases simply as a matter of being able to drive in more revenue.

Not sure I agree with the notion that this would further spur development though. All else equal, increased costs of land would cause less development.
__________________
There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7143  
Old Posted May 18, 2022, 4:31 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 33,618
Downtown land was relatively cheap for a long time, it didn't seem to generate much development action.

Success begets success. You build something substantial, it fills in a lot and creates a more appealing place overall, which in turn generates more demand for space be it residential or commercial. For instance, would the new building at Donald and St. Mary be going up if it weren't for TNS nearby? Suddenly surface parking lot owners start looking at more lucrative uses for their increasingly valuable land than renting out a few dozen parking spots for $14 a day or whatever.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7144  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 6:11 PM
Labroco's Avatar
Labroco Labroco is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Toronto
Posts: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Downtown land was relatively cheap for a long time, it didn't seem to generate much development action.

Success begets success. You build something substantial, it fills in a lot and creates a more appealing place overall, which in turn generates more demand for space be it residential or commercial. For instance, would the new building at Donald and St. Mary be going up if it weren't for TNS nearby? Suddenly surface parking lot owners start looking at more lucrative uses for their increasingly valuable land than renting out a few dozen parking spots for $14 a day or whatever.
As someone who owns both parking lots and buildings in the Exchange, I can say in our case, the idea of acquiring more heritage buildings is waning. It is challenging to fill them even at very reasonable rates. For government agencies to poach marginal $1,500 tenants and place them in multimillion dollar renovated spaces or new construction payed for by the tax paying owners in the area is disheartening.

The parking lots are not built on because there is really very limited demand. The risk of development is huge when there is uncertainty and lack of transparency as to what adjacent sites controlled by government agencies are planning. No one is quick to develop around the St Regis if plans are not shared. The same is true on Waterfront Drive. These sites are sitting in limbo for years. Freezing out parking on the old Y site on Hargrave still has not stimulated a development. The owners would rather just sit with the land, pay taxes and wait. The Market Lands called for proposals two years ago yet proponents either walked or were rejected. This creates huge uncertainty with the private capital required to make an investment. While the tax rebate is a start, I think some kind of loan guarantees is needed to push private development.

My vote is still to support education. More RRC buildings similar to what had just been completed has my vote. This in the long run educates, creates employment and adds to the urban fabric we all speak about.

The other issue is really where does development capital want to be? Unfortunately it’s a safer long term bet in the suburbs and industrial parks.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7145  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 7:29 PM
trueviking's Avatar
trueviking trueviking is online now
surely you agree with me
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: winnipeg
Posts: 12,515
Cool! so when the developer of the St. Regis site decides that he will announce his private development to the public, it will remove uncertainty and unlock new development all around it? That makes me excited. I'm not sure what Waterfront Drive properties are still left to have this similar effect, but if there is, I can't wait.

I think if anyone wants to make a proposal for Market Lands they can....including RRC.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7146  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 8:05 PM
bomberjet bomberjet is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 12,381
What's happening with Market Lands. Nothing?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7147  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 9:07 PM
bomberjet bomberjet is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 12,381
The site on Concordia that was supposed to be some kind of wellness centre is now slated to be an apartment block. Maybe it is similar as there will be a large number of assisted living units.
http://clkapps.winnipeg.ca/DMIS/perm...0525(RM)ETC-12
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7148  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 9:10 PM
Biff's Avatar
Biff Biff is online now
What could go wrong?
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 7,972
Wellness centre is still there, but in a phase 2 with another 100+ units
__________________
"But a city can be smothered by too much reverence for its past. The skyline must keep acquiring new peaks, because the day we consider it complete and untouchable is the day the city begins to die." - Justin Davidson - May 2010 Issue of New York
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7149  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 9:12 PM
Biff's Avatar
Biff Biff is online now
What could go wrong?
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 7,972
Construction fencing up now around the whole Pemby site. Hotel now officially closed.

Tip one out for memories of the Pemby this weekend…or tonight, or every night.
__________________
"But a city can be smothered by too much reverence for its past. The skyline must keep acquiring new peaks, because the day we consider it complete and untouchable is the day the city begins to die." - Justin Davidson - May 2010 Issue of New York
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7150  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 9:14 PM
drew's Avatar
drew drew is online now
the first stamp is free
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hippyville, Winnipeg
Posts: 7,339
^ preferably a pitcher in each hand... Rickards Red.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7151  
Old Posted May 19, 2022, 10:46 PM
trueviking's Avatar
trueviking trueviking is online now
surely you agree with me
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: winnipeg
Posts: 12,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
What's happening with Market Lands. Nothing?
The North properties are still not sold.

As great as it would be, Red River College is not expanding at this time.

Last edited by trueviking; May 20, 2022 at 1:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7152  
Old Posted May 20, 2022, 2:58 AM
mbp518 mbp518 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 8
notice they start putting fence in front of seafood city in garden city mall. they must be building something there..
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7153  
Old Posted May 20, 2022, 1:52 PM
borkborkbork borkborkbork is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
The North properties are still not sold.

As great as it would be, Red River College is not expanding at this time.
I don't fully understand the Market Lands thing. The website shows three pieces: A "creative hub", a "public market", and affordable housing, which was the concept arrived at through that design competition.

But now... the lands are for sale? So, it's for sale to anyone, but the buyer has to execute the city's design concept and intended uses? I mean, I know CV has done things like this in the past (you can buy this land only if it's used for mixed use with a particular density), but this feels like a different level of restrictiveness..

Sorry, I haven't been following this whole project as closely as I should, very possible I just don't understand it correctly..
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7154  
Old Posted May 20, 2022, 1:58 PM
pspeid's Avatar
pspeid pspeid is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
The North properties are still not sold.

As great as it would be, Red River College is not expanding at this time.
So the south end of the development can't begin until the north portion of the site is sold is this the case? That would pretty much guarantee the project is on hold for years, doesn't it? Hugely disappointing if that's the case.
__________________
"Opinion is really the lowest form of intelligence"-Bill Bullard

"Naysayers are always predicting the present"-Anon.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7155  
Old Posted May 20, 2022, 1:59 PM
Biff's Avatar
Biff Biff is online now
What could go wrong?
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 7,972
The south portion of the land - approximately half the site is planned for the Marketlands project we have seen on here. The Market and apartment building. This is the portion that was gifted to the city and must be used for public good in perpetuity. The other half of the site (north) is split into 2 parcels - east and west that does not fall under the same restrictions as the south half. It is open to private developers and I believe administered by Centre Venture. There are currently no selected developers for the north portions.
__________________
"But a city can be smothered by too much reverence for its past. The skyline must keep acquiring new peaks, because the day we consider it complete and untouchable is the day the city begins to die." - Justin Davidson - May 2010 Issue of New York
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7156  
Old Posted May 20, 2022, 2:08 PM
Biff's Avatar
Biff Biff is online now
What could go wrong?
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 7,972
Quote:
Originally Posted by pspeid View Post
So the south end of the development can't begin until the north portion of the site is sold is this the case? That would pretty much guarantee the project is on hold for years, doesn't it? Hugely disappointing if that's the case.
I don't believe this has any bearing on the south end going forward. They are having a difficult time making the budget work for the apartment.
__________________
"But a city can be smothered by too much reverence for its past. The skyline must keep acquiring new peaks, because the day we consider it complete and untouchable is the day the city begins to die." - Justin Davidson - May 2010 Issue of New York
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7157  
Old Posted May 20, 2022, 2:10 PM
bomberjet bomberjet is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 12,381
Okay thanks. It sounded like the south portion was cancelled or something. Any idea when things will start up on site for the south portion?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7158  
Old Posted May 20, 2022, 2:46 PM
Biff's Avatar
Biff Biff is online now
What could go wrong?
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 7,972
Not sure. I believe it is supposed to be a Net-Zero building, but they cant make the budget work.
__________________
"But a city can be smothered by too much reverence for its past. The skyline must keep acquiring new peaks, because the day we consider it complete and untouchable is the day the city begins to die." - Justin Davidson - May 2010 Issue of New York
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7159  
Old Posted May 20, 2022, 4:23 PM
trueviking's Avatar
trueviking trueviking is online now
surely you agree with me
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: winnipeg
Posts: 12,515
thanks Biff. That's correct.

The southern half of the site is what the design competition was based on. It will be the creative hub on the bottom two floors, https://www.marketlands.ca/creative-hub
affordable housing above, and a public market building near the street. This is being worked on. Like every single project currently in development, it is facing cost escalation challenges.

The north half of the site will be sold to a developer or developers, to build out the rest of the property with private development. There is some interest that is being worked through, but these properties are still available. These developments have no bearing on the south half proceeding or not. It is very challenging to create a high performance affordable housing project, but it will happen as the hurdles are crossed.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7160  
Old Posted May 20, 2022, 4:47 PM
Labroco's Avatar
Labroco Labroco is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Toronto
Posts: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff View Post
The south portion of the land - approximately half the site is planned for the Marketlands project we have seen on here. The Market and apartment building. This is the portion that was gifted to the city and must be used for public good in perpetuity. The other half of the site (north) is split into 2 parcels - east and west that does not fall under the same restrictions as the south half. It is open to private developers and I believe administered by Centre Venture. There are currently no selected developers for the north portions.
Our understanding is there were a number of proposals but none of them either met CV’s requirements or were too restrictive and the developers chose not to proceed.

As the St Regis site would have had a a development agreement attached to it in the same way Market Lands does, it is surprising nothing has been announced. The same is true for the Waterfront site.

As both sites have been “ sold” it would be interesting to see what the sale price was. If all the proceeds have actually been received by CV that would be great.

If a VTB was involved what we have is really just an offer to purchase with a small refundable deposit / and or a fee for the option to purchase.

Two years is quickly coming up on the St Regis site “sale” and more than three on the Waterfront site. One has to assume CV has offered extensions to both of these purchasers due to “Covid” related issues.

I wish both developers well and hope permits are issued and construction commences. It’s a very difficult climate going forward.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:15 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.