PHILADELPHIA | 2222 Market Street| 282 FT | 20 FLOORS

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

An El stop at 20th Street has been talked about a lot by both city and SEPTA officials. It's gonna take quite some doing. I give it about a 40% chance of ever materializing.

I just read an article from about 2 years ago that there had been a recent study to add a MFL stop at 20th, but that the price tag was $350 million. That seems pretty damn steep. don't know how they arrived at that, but unless they are using platinum as a structural material and cocaine as a decorative finish, I can't imagine it actually costing that much, especially given the utilitarian design of our subway stations. more likely, they just threw a big number at it so it would get shot down and they wouldn't have to deal with it.

edit: here is the link to the article, which lists a bunch of other transit ideas. It actually has the MFL stop at 22nd Street, not 20th. This is #4 on the list.
https://www.phillymag.com/citified/2...t-walkability/
also: should this discussion be moved to the transportation thread?

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I think you're thinking about this a bit wrong. SEPTA applies for grants on an ad hoc basis, meaning that they might apply for a grant to install a 20th St Station before, say, getting the money to repair the NHSL tracks.

Regardless, billions.

Well I didn't fully know about the grant so thats new info to me but my reasoning for asking that question was to see if the feds could fund a couple billion to fix all these issues and get septa back up to date, we need funding for Septa to fix it.

Now my idea is just an idea but with some good thought behind it it could get done.

[Skintreesnail]

I don't think terminating the trolley at 30th is a good idea. Lots of people depend on the trolley to get to center city. If anything I think the trolley, el and suburban trolley routes should be merged into one light rail system that is through running to frankford (and preferably beyond). They're all on the same guage track and share same ROW through CC. It'll never happen, but as long as we're dreaming...

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I don't think terminating the trolley at 30th is a good idea. Lots of people depend on the trolley to get to center city. If anything I think the trolley, el and suburban trolley routes should be merged into one light rail system that is through running to frankford (and preferably beyond). They're all on the same guage track and share same ROW through CC. It'll never happen, but as long as we're dreaming...

The El will never and SHOULD never be converted to anything that isn't heavy rail.

If anything the Woodland Ave El should be built out like it originally was planned.

We were pretty on topic before, but now I can see us straying off topic slightly. I think I agree that we should continue this discussion in the Transportation Thread.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I don't think terminating the trolley at 30th is a good idea. Lots of people depend on the trolley to get to center city.

ok, under this proposal, they could transfer at 30th street to the MFL and get to CC that way. not a big deal.

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

If anything I think the trolley, el and suburban trolley routes should be merged into one light rail system that is through running to frankford (and preferably beyond). They're all on the same guage track and share same ROW through CC. It'll never happen, but as long as we're dreaming...

no way a light rail system could handle that kind of capacity. the MFL can barely handle it (at least in pre-covid times).

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

ok, under this proposal, they could transfer at 30th street to the MFL and get to CC that way. not a big deal.

To be fair, with an investment of $0, you can already transfer at Suburban or 30th Street from the MFL to a trolley.

Like the article says, there are bigger priorities. Maybe put that $350M or whatever into a new line/line extension rather than build a redundancy.

Also, off topic, but I think #10 on this list (faster commute between Philly and NYC) is probably closer to happening today than every before with Amtrak Joe looking at stimulus and infrastructure spending.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

To be fair, with an investment of $0, you can already transfer at Suburban or 30th Street from the MFL to a trolley.

yes, true, which shows you how easy it already is, and wouldn't be a big ask of trolley riders. but the reason for terminating the trolleys at 30th is so that the MFL could either build a new station around 20th or use the existing trolley stations at 19th and / or 22nd. it makes no sense for the heaviest-traveled transit line not to have service to the central business district. the trolley lines just get in the way of that.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

yes, true, which shows you how easy it already is, and wouldn't be a big ask of trolley riders. but the reason for terminating the trolleys at 30th is so that the MFL could either build a new station around 20th or use the existing trolley stations at 19th and / or 22nd. it makes no sense for the heaviest-traveled transit line not to have service to the central business district. the trolley lines just get in the way of that.

Wait how much would it cost to just make some adjustments to the trolley station at 19th or 22nd like build a platform add some stairs and an elevator and bang we got us a station. That way we just build up to the MFL and not try to bring it down or whatever they were trying to do.

While only losing one trolley station but adding an MFL station.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

ok, under this proposal, they could transfer at 30th street to the MFL and get to CC that way. not a big deal.

Depends on your situation; if I had to give up a one-seat ride on the trolley it would be pretty annoying and I'm sure the many other users would say the same especially since el riders trying to get to 22nd or 19th today can transfer to the trolley. Also you're essentially removing the biggest perk of using the trolley if you take away the tunnel. You may as well replace them all with bus routes. And you'd be doing it just to add a station on the el for probably a small group compared to the number impacted by terminating at 30th street. You may see the trolley as an inconvenience but there are many people that depend on it. How would you justify inconveniencing the trolley users?

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

no way a light rail system could handle that kind of capacity. the MFL can barely handle it (at least in pre-covid times).

Maybe, but it might be possible if you picked up the added capacity of the two trolley tracks in the tunnel and used longish trainsets with platform loading and high frequency. Light rail can get pretty close to heavy rail when it has a row, with the added versatility of running at street level. Extending the trolley tracks east would be best and allow for a spur to south philly. but again none of it's happening so it doesn't matter.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

yes, true, which shows you how easy it already is, and wouldn't be a big ask of trolley riders. but the reason for terminating the trolleys at 30th is so that the MFL could either build a new station around 20th or use the existing trolley stations at 19th and / or 22nd. it makes no sense for the heaviest-traveled transit line not to have service to the central business district. the trolley lines just get in the way of that.

Terminating the trolleys at 30th in order to add a subway stop at 20th is a terrible idea. And I speak as someone who would use an MFL stop at 20th all the time and very much would like a stop there. And I basically never use the green line trolleys.

Transferring from the trolleys to the MFL isn't very hard, but it still takes time. Depending on the time of the day and when your train arrives, you could be adding 30 minutes or more to someone's commute. that is the type of inconvenience that has people look for different ways to commute that are less inconvenient. The ability to take a trolley from just about anywhere in west philly and have a one seat ride into center city is a great asset. We should be looking to create more assets like this, not destroying what little we have.

There are plenty of way to put a subway stop there that don't involve killing five successful and useful trolley lines. It will be more expensive to bury the trolley line or whatever else they have to do, but what is the point of saving money if it is costing you riders?

[PHL10]

^^^^ strongly agree.

[iamrobk]

Perhaps only tangentially related, but it's worth noting that the two existing trolley stops are not ADA compliant, so they can never be rebuilt without extensive renovations (most notably I think they'd need to find space to add elevators). Of course, ADA compliance isn't really a big deal if they're going to completely reconfigure the entire stops to be for the el instead of the trolleys (any complete redesign would of course be ADA compliant), but it does limit what can be done with them as trolley stops.

[bigfish]

Actually all you would need to do is move the trolley tracks where the existing platforms are at either 22nd or 19th. Then sink the El tracks by 4 or 5 feet so that they line up with the Trolleys doors and build a platform that they can both share. Think of it like the express stations for the BSL and the trolleys would be the local service on the outer tracks and the El would be the express using the inner tracks but sharing those 2 platforms.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by bigfish

Actually all you would need to do is move the trolley tracks where the existing platforms are at either 22nd or 19th. Then sink the El tracks by 4 or 5 feet so that they line up with the Trolleys doors and build a platform that they can both share. Think of it like the express stations for the BSL and the trolleys would be the local service on the outer tracks and the El would be the express using the inner tracks but sharing those 2 platforms.

not a bad idea, except you'd have to reconfigure the stairs so that they would land on the new platforms and not the newly relocated tracks. there's no mezzanine at either of these stations, so that would be a significant challenge.

[TonyTone]

Septa and the City of Philly is truly incompetent we literally have a tunnel already under the city from noble/broad to the parkway/30th.

This is a subway ready to be utilized and connect so much more of the city. if they use this for anything other then trolley or subway its a big mistake even the bus line with the trail is good.

https://www.dvrpc.org/Products/14020/

Paging McGrath what do you think of this?

[Aaamazarite]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Septa and the City of Philly is truly incompetent we literally have a tunnel already under the city from noble/broad to the parkway/30th.

This is a subway ready to be utilized and connect so much more of the city. if they use this for anything other then trolley or subway its a big mistake even the bus line with the trail is good.

https://www.dvrpc.org/Products/14020/

Paging McGrath what do you think of this?

Utilization of that tunnel may have been made possible a few years ago but the ship has sailed and I don't know if it was ever really possible-- the 1500 block of that tunnel is filled in by the parking garage at 1501 Callowhill on it's south half and the Hamilton on it's north half. The 1400 block section has been filled since 1966 with an addition to the former Inquirer Building (which actually has it's own ironic name-- the Infill Building) and then you have part of the infrastructure of the Rodin Place shopping center and 9th district police station using parts of it on the 2000 block. Then we have the new condo building capping the 2100 block, I don't know how much of it they may have blocked.

I love urbanists but I've always thought of the idea of the tunnel being used as an underground park to be crazy pipe dream, and the thought of it being used as a transit line as a better, but still somewhat unrealistic, possibility considering that it would be hard to connect to broad street without major changes.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Aaamazarite

Utilization of that tunnel may have been made possible a few years ago but the ship has sailed and I don't know if it was ever really possible-- the 1500 block of that tunnel is filled in by the parking garage at 1501 Callowhill on it's south half and the Hamilton on it's north half. The 1400 block section has been filled since 1966 with an addition to the former Inquirer Building (which actually has it's own ironic name-- the Infill Building) and then you have part of the infrastructure of the Rodin Place shopping center and 9th district police station using parts of it on the 2000 block. Then we have the new condo building capping the 2100 block, I don't know how much of it they may have blocked.

I love urbanists but I've always thought of the idea of the tunnel being used as an underground park to be crazy pipe dream, and the thought of it being used as a transit line as a better, but still somewhat unrealistic, possibility considering that it would be hard to connect to broad street without major changes.

Oh wow I read one part of the tunnel was kind of blocked but was still passable.

I just don't understand how when it was converted from freight why someone didn't think "hmm let's change these tracks from freight to BSL and add some stops along the way, why waste a perfectly good tunnel when it cost 1.7 billion to construct a new one.

We talk about having a new line everyday and behold here one was, it slowly withered to death.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Septa and the City of Philly is truly incompetent we literally have a tunnel already under the city from noble/broad to the parkway/30th.

This is a subway ready to be utilized and connect so much more of the city. if they use this for anything other then trolley or subway its a big mistake even the bus line with the trail is good.

https://www.dvrpc.org/Products/14020/

Paging McGrath what do you think of this?

Like Aamazarite said, it can’t really be used because of buildings blocking its current ROW. However, a Parkway subway could use it to go under Pennsylvania Avenue and head northwest from the Art Museum.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by bigfish

Actually all you would need to do is move the trolley tracks where the existing platforms are at either 22nd or 19th. Then sink the El tracks by 4 or 5 feet so that they line up with the Trolleys doors and build a platform that they can both share. Think of it like the express stations for the BSL and the trolleys would be the local service on the outer tracks and the El would be the express using the inner tracks but sharing those 2 platforms.

No...because that needs a mezzanine and the tunnel is quite shallow there. Another problem is that the trolley doors are on the wrong side.

However, while the specifics may be faulty, there is something interesting in the generality. Implementing light rail equipment with doors on both sides + cross platform MFL transfers at 15th and 30th street stations + a new station not at 22nd Street (WHY?!?) but between 19th & 20th which is more central to ridership drivers would be an expensive but worthwhile improvement suite that would make the core system a great deal more usable.

Originally Posted by Aaamazarite

Utilization of that tunnel may have been made possible a few years ago but the ship has sailed and I don't know if it was ever really possible-- the 1500 block of that tunnel is filled in by the parking garage at 1501 Callowhill on it's south half and the Hamilton on it's north half. The 1400 block section has been filled since 1966 with an addition to the former Inquirer Building (which actually has it's own ironic name-- the Infill Building) and then you have part of the infrastructure of the Rodin Place shopping center and 9th district police station using parts of it on the 2000 block. Then we have the new condo building capping the 2100 block, I don't know how much of it they may have blocked.

I love urbanists but I've always thought of the idea of the tunnel being used as an underground park to be crazy pipe dream, and the thought of it being used as a transit line as a better, but still somewhat unrealistic, possibility considering that it would be hard to connect to broad street without major changes.

Supposedly the easement was retained through the Rodin building. The 1400 and 1500 blocks will be significant challenges but I doubt they are insurmountable -- the original rail grade went from sunken at Broad to elevated at 13th and a new ROW should probably utilize an underground connection along Noble there.

[TK2001]

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