The New Jersey-NYC relationship - Page 4

Quixote · #61 Posted **Jun 2, 2023, 9:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

The New Jersey side seems to definitely be seen as “other” in a way that is much more present than is the case with NY.

Philly is just much more insular (and obviously smaller) than NY. It doesn’t have the same pull on “its NJ” that NY has. Being in Pennsylvania seems to matter a lot more.

This is kind of ironic because Jersey is much more accessible from Philadelphia. The PATCO Speedline runs through the heart of Center City. It begins just two blocks from Rittenhouse Square, intersects with the two main heavy rail lines, uses the Ben Franklin Bridge to cross the Delaware, and cuts through the heart of Camden County before terminating in Lindenwold.

Camden aside, does South Jersey also have a negative reputation (fair or not) among Philadelphians similar to how New Yorkers make fun of North Jersey?

Quixote · #62 Posted **Jun 2, 2023, 10:09 PM**

The Hudson River Valley is also quintessential New York in its own way. Westchester is way more Jewish and less WASPy compared to Fairfield and New Haven. Putnam and Dutchess have different settlement patterns and topographies than Litchfield. Rockland and Orange have Monsey and Kiryas Joel. And as soon as you hit Columbia and Greene Counties (Albany metro), German ancestry overtakes Italian by quite a bit.

North/Central Jersey is the geographic center of the Northeast corridor and the place where sort of all topographies and settlement typologies and patterns (urban, suburban, exurban, rural) converge.

Docere · #63 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 12:44 AM**

So Lower Hudson Valley is downstate, Mid-Hudson is the transition zone and is kind of exurban NYC and Upper Hudson is more in the Albany orbit.

https://hudsonvalleypost.com/shockin...hudson-valley/

https://www.hudsonrivervalley.com/regions

Docere · #64 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 12:58 AM**

Italian is the most common ancestry group in pretty much every suburban NYC county (Rockland being the main outlier). As one moves up the Hudson Valley, Irish becomes more common. The same is true in Connecticut/New England as well. Of course there's lots of Italian ancestry in Upstate NY and New England too.

I think the only South Jersey county that's plurality-Italian is Atlantic County, though Gloucester is more or less an Italian-Irish draw and its Italian share is like a suburban NYC county. South Philly Italians are more likely to move to NJ.

Crawford · #65 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 1:43 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quixote

This is kind of ironic because Jersey is much more accessible from Philadelphia. The PATCO Speedline runs through the heart of Center City. It begins just two blocks from Rittenhouse Square, intersects with the two main heavy rail lines, uses the Ben Franklin Bridge to cross the Delaware, and cuts through the heart of Camden County before terminating in Lindenwold.

The PATH does the same thing on the NY-NJ side, but three routes into the core instead of one on the NJ-PA side. And PATH has higher ridership than SEPTA subway + PATCO combined, and all but a handful of subway systems nationwide.

And NJT rail from Penn has much higher ridership than any commuter rail system in the U.S., excepting LIRR and Metro North. In contrast, SEPTA regional rail is almost entirely PA-focused. I'm not seeing this amazing South Jersey-Philly connectivity. Not surprisingly, almost all the traditional Philly-area commuter suburbs are in PA. The NJ suburbs of Philly have a few attractive older towns, but nothing like the PA side. South Jersey is much more blue collar than Central and North Jersey.

One similarity though - South Jersey is very Italian, like the rest of Jersey. South Philly Italians often migrate to South Jersey sprawl.

Docere · #66 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 2:35 AM**

College graduates

Chester 56.3%
Montgomery 52.9%
Bucks 44.3%
Delaware 42.9%

Burlington 43.2%
Gloucester 36.6%
Camden 36.1%
Salem 25.8%

Quixote · #67 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 2:45 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

The PATH does the same thing on the NY-NJ side, but three routes into the core instead of one on the NJ-PA side. And PATH has higher ridership than SEPTA subway + PATCO combined, and all but a handful of subway systems nationwide.

The point is that South Jersey is more immediate and there's less sprawl. Up in North Jersey, the Meadowlands, Secaucus, EWR, and port complex really create a wedge between the "meat" of North Jersey and Manhattan.

I also don't really feel strongly about this either. It's clear that North Jersey has a stronger relationship with Manhattan, while South Philly is more of an afterthought for Philadelphians.

Quixote · #68 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 2:54 AM**

I think an interesting discussion to have would be why South Jersey never developed more, why the Jersey Shore doesn't have a "posh" area like the Hamptons or Cape Cod, why there aren't more commuter rail lines despite there being the ROWs, etc.

And South Jersey seems a bit like a cultural oddity too. It has the strong Italian/Irish demographic of the "Northeast proper," but it's also seems pretty Mid-Atlantic-y — especially south of Camden County — with perhaps stronger ties to Wilmington.

Quixote · #69 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 3:13 AM**

As someone from the West Coast, I've always found Philadelphia and the Delaware Valley in general to be a bit of an enigma. It's culturally Northeast but also feels like a bigger Baltimore. Like NYC, it's a total cultural outlier in its state, being located in the extreme southeastern corner. Yet Philadelphia doesn't have a grip on PA the way NYC does with NYS or Boston with MA. The accent sounds nothing like New York or Boston; it actually sounds a bit Midwestern.

Agitprop · #70 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 1:26 PM**

^

Agreed, as another person born/raised in Greater Pacifica; perhaps Pittsburgh dilutes its presence more than Buffalo on NYC (and Worcester on Beantown).

PhillyRising · #71 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 2:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quixote

This is kind of ironic because Jersey is much more accessible from Philadelphia. The PATCO Speedline runs through the heart of Center City. It begins just two blocks from Rittenhouse Square, intersects with the two main heavy rail lines, uses the Ben Franklin Bridge to cross the Delaware, and cuts through the heart of Camden County before terminating in Lindenwold.

Camden aside, does South Jersey also have a negative reputation (fair or not) among Philadelphians similar to how New Yorkers make fun of North Jersey?

I don't think so. Enough people from Philly have moved over there over the years. I think the easier accessibility to the city (at least car wise) has been a big attraction for people moving to South Jersey. It does have some nice communities and then some meh places. I have never had a negative view of South Jersey.

If you ask me...in my opinion...if you aren't going to live in the city...but you want to remain in the metro area...the Western Suburbs in PA offer the best living experience overall (and it costs more) but South Jersey is far more convenient living (housing is less but taxes are high) and still can offer a high quality of living. Places like Collingswood are pretty desirable.

PhillyRising · #72 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 2:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quixote

I think an interesting discussion to have would be why South Jersey never developed more, why the Jersey Shore doesn't have a "posh" area like the Hamptons or Cape Cod, why there aren't more commuter rail lines despite there being the ROWs, etc.

And South Jersey seems a bit like a cultural oddity too. It has the strong Italian/Irish demographic of the "Northeast proper," but it's also seems pretty Mid-Atlantic-y — especially south of Camden County — with perhaps stronger ties to Wilmington.

Stone Harbor isn't cheap. I've never set foot there but I hear it's pretty nice.

Cape May isn't that cheap either...the Victorian buildings are very nice.

It's a shame Wildwood is plopped in the middle of it all...

Docere · #73 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 2:31 PM**

70% of NYS residents live downstate, 1/3 of PA residents live in the Philadelphia area.

Quixote · #74 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 4:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhillyRising

Stone Harbor isn't cheap. I've never set foot there but I hear it's pretty nice.

Cape May isn't that cheap either...the Victorian buildings are very nice.

It's a shame Wildwood is plopped in the middle of it all...

Those communities look like Atlantic Beach, NY.

Wildwood, Stone Harbor, Avalon, etc. should’ve been developed like Palm Beach IMO, with Lower and Middle Townships being part of a sort of “Greater Hampton-like” are.

Quixote · #75 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 4:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

70% of NYS residents live downstate, 1/3 of PA residents live in the Philadelphia area.

If someone says they’re from New York, I automatically assume either NYC, Long Island, or Hudson River Valley.

If someone says they’re from Massachusetts, I automatically assume it’s from a place near Boston.

If someone says they’re from Pennsylvania, I’ll ask what part of the state.

iheartthed · #76 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 4:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

70% of NYS residents live downstate,

Not just that, but the bulk of the downstate population resides in the 5 boroughs. NYC is over 40% of NYS's population, and over 60% of the New York downstate population. Of major cities, NYC has by far the biggest ratio of residents of a state in the central city.

New York City / New York 45.4%
Anchorage / Alaska 39.5%
Albuquerque / New Mexico 26.7%
Honolulu / Hawaii 24.5%
Omaha / Nebraska 24.3%
Phoenix / Arizona 23.2%
Las Vegas / Nevada 21.4%
Chicago / Illinois 21.2%
Sioux Falls / South Dakota 20.6%
Providence / Rhode Island 17.0%
Oklahoma City / Oklahoma 16.5%
Fargo / North Dakota 16.4%
Portland / Oregon 15.8%
Louisville / Kentucky 13.9%
Wichita / Kansas 13.4%
Boise / Idaho 13.0%
Indianapolis / Indiana 13.0%
Denver / Colorado 12.6%
Philadelphia / Pennsylvania 12.4%
Cheyenne / Wyoming 11.1%
Billings / Montana 11.0%
Milwaukee / Wisconsin 10.2%
Boston / Massachusetts 10.1%
Los Angeles / California 10.1%
Nashville / Tennessee 10.1%
San Juan / Puerto Rico 10.0%
Seattle / Washington 10.0%
Baltimore / Maryland4 9.8%
New Orleans / Louisiana 8.6%
Charlotte / North Carolina 8.5%
Manchester / New Hampshire 8.3%
Kansas City / Missouri 8.3%
Houston / Texas 8.1%
Columbus / Ohio 7.7%
Minneapolis / Minnesota 7.6%
Wilmington / Delaware 7.3%
Burlington / Vermont 7.1%
Des Moines / Iowa 6.9%
Detroit / Michigan 6.7%
Little Rock / Arkansas 6.7%
Salt Lake City / Utah 6.3%
Jackson / Mississippi 5.5%
Virginia Beach / Virginia 5.3%
Portland / Maine 5.0%
Atlanta / Georgia 4.7%
Jacksonville / Florida 4.4%
Huntsville / Alabama 4.4%
Bridgeport / Connecticut 4.1%
Newark / New Jersey 3.2%
Charleston / South Carolina 2.9%
Charleston / West Virginia 2.6%

Docere · #77 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 5:27 PM**

And Anchorage a close second to NYC lol. One can't think of two more different cities.

Steely Dan · #78 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 6:31 PM**

interesting to see the two charleston's in dead last.

and no surprise that jersey's near the bottom.

it's the largest US state without a municiplatiy over 500k (technically it's georgia, but atlanta had grown to 496K by 2020, so close enough).

as we've often talked about, if hudson county had consolidated itself into a single city, NJ woulda had a proper alpha city of it's own.

725K in 46 sq. miles.

that's roughly a san francisco, right there in NJ directly across the the river from manhattan.

but the vast majority of people don't recognize it as such cuz it's just a county chopped up into a dozen different municipalities, wih 7 of those being utterly tiny little pissant places of around 1 sq. mile or less.

very dense by US standards, but all chopped up and divided.

Steely Dan · #79 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 6:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quixote

If someone says they’re from New York, I automatically assume either NYC, Long Island, or Hudson River Valley.

If someone says they’re from Massachusetts, I automatically assume it’s from a place near Boston.

If someone says they’re from Pennsylvania, I’ll ask what part of the state.

interstingly or not for illinois, if someone says they are from "Illinois", it's almost always a dead giveaway that they are not from chicagoland.

chicagogland people tend to say they are from "chicago", "near chicago", "suburban chicago", etc.

"illinois" is a different identity that's not really embraced by the 70% of the state's population who all crammed up into its far NE corner.

Docere · #80 Posted **Jun 3, 2023, 8:29 PM**

So there's "Chicago" and there's "Illinois."

The flagship state university in Urbana and the state capital in Springfield seem to be the only things that really seem to be on the radar of Chicagoans.