Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[Busy Bee]

$4.6 billion


To put that in perspective, Mark Zuckerberg "lost", at least on paper, about 10 times this amount in personal stock value the other day. One man. What a society we live in. It ain't normal.

[thoughtcriminal]

In today's Inky, there is an opinion piece from a phD student at Penn advocating for the Roosevelt Boulevard subway line.
no new info, and not terribly well written, especially for a Penn doctoral student, but at least the idea is being kept alive.
https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/roo...sq0p3KNHxFcMlM

[EastSideHBG]

As some transit agencies rebound from the pandemic, SEPTA's ridership continues to decline

SEPTA ridership decreased by 10 million in 2021, the biggest year-over-year loss among transportation agencies in the country as commuters remain slow to return to their offices.

SEPTA riders decreased by about 7% with roughly 127 million passenger trips in 2021, according to data from the U.S. Department of Transportation. In a pandemic-ridden 2020, the transportation agency saw close to 137 million boardings.

Among the six largest transportation agencies in the country, only SEPTA and the Chicago Transit Authority posted ridership declines last year. New York, Los Angeles, Boston and New Jersey Transit posted increases. SEPTA is the sixth-largest public transportation system in the country by passengers.

Chicago lost about 1.5 million passengers, or less than 1% of its riders in 2021. By contrast, New York's Metropolitan Transportation Authority saw overall ridership increase by 189 million in 2021.

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...p-decline.html

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

In today's Inky, there is an opinion piece from a phD student at Penn advocating for the Roosevelt Boulevard subway line.
no new info, and not terribly well written, especially for a Penn doctoral student, but at least the idea is being kept alive.
https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/roo...sq0p3KNHxFcMlM

Literally NO POINT to build a Roosevelt Boulevard subway. The Northeast is primarily car centric as it is outside of a select few neighborhoods. Plus, in a cash strapped agency like SEPTA, which is seeing currently decreasing ridership, why would they spend time, energy and money on something like this? The best option for Roosevelt Boulevard is a BRT Line (Bus Rapid Transit). The next best options would be an Elevated Rail Line, then an at-grade Light Rail Line. However, I think BRT is the best option for the Boulevard.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...p-decline.html

Just posted the same article. Look on the last page. Funny, you left out the part showing where San Francisco, DC and Seattle transit lost ridership too.

This is where SEPTA's Regional Rail heavy transit system comes back to bite it in the ass. With remote work becoming more prevalent, SEPTA is going to have to figure something out for Regional Rail which is primarily a commuter rail system. Probably shorter wait times for Regional Rail will have to be the answer - especially closer to the city and in the city. They'll have to run it more like a subway system with more frequent train arrival times so it makes more sense to take VS driving.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Just posted the same article. Look on the last page. Funny, you left out the part showing where San Francisco, DC and Seattle transit lost ridership too.

I would not count two days ago as "just posted" so I must have missed it but your insinuation here like there was some slant going on is bizarre. This is a Philly focused thread and I regularly post just the pertinent info and/or just the lead in and then the link so that people can go read the rest for themselves and in turn give the original source some traffic.

This is where SEPTA's Regional Rail heavy transit system comes back to bite it in the ass. With remote work becoming more prevalent, SEPTA is going to have to figure something out for Regional Rail which is primarily a commuter rail system. Probably shorter wait times for Regional Rail will have to be the answer - especially closer to the city and in the city. They'll have to run it more like a subway system with more frequent train arrival times so it makes more sense to take VS driving.

I agree along with making some of the current stations more convenient and user friendly, safer feeling, etc.

[Delthayre]

Originally Posted by summersm343

This is where SEPTA's Regional Rail heavy transit system comes back to bite it in the ass. With remote work becoming more prevalent, SEPTA is going to have to figure something out for Regional Rail which is primarily a commuter rail system. Probably shorter wait times for Regional Rail will have to be the answer - especially closer to the city and in the city. They'll have to run it more like a subway system with more frequent train arrival times so it makes more sense to take VS driving.

One must hope that the Regional Rail Master Plan yields comprehensive, high-quality recommendations and that the Authority implements them. That second point is probably in greater doubt.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Literally NO POINT to build a Roosevelt Boulevard subway. The Northeast is primarily car centric as it is outside of a select few neighborhoods. Plus, in a cash strapped agency like SEPTA, which is seeing currently decreasing ridership, why would they spend time, energy and money on something like this? The best option for Roosevelt Boulevard is a BRT Line (Bus Rapid Transit). The next best options would be an Elevated Rail Line, then an at-grade Light Rail Line. However, I think BRT is the best option for the Boulevard.

I think we've debated this before. Your point that the NE is car-centric is the effect, not the cause. it's car-centric because it doesn't have the subway line. if they had built the subway a century ago as planned, it wouldn't be as car-centric.
also, the subway line would only be underground for part of its length, it would be elevated at the far reaches.
it is true that ridership is down, but I think that is a temporary effect of the pandemic. once people start going back to the office, that will likely change.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by Delthayre

One must hope that the Regional Rail Master Plan yields comprehensive, high-quality recommendations and that the Authority implements them. That second point is probably in greater doubt.

one thing I hope happens is that they convert the Chestnut Hill West line from a regional rail line to being the NW branch of the broad street subway, as they had proposed back in the 40s I believe. that way, they could consolidate the regional rail service from two nearby lines largely overlapping service onto just the CH East line, and provide subway service to the NW part of the city. they would have to convert the CHW to 3rd rail power, and do something with some of the stations that have low platforms, or else convert the trains to provide both high and low platform service like the regional rail trains do. but that would be cheaper than building a whole new subway line.

[Delthayre]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

I think we've debated this before. Your point that the NE is car-centric is the effect, not the cause. it's car-centric because it doesn't have the subway line. if they had built the subway a century ago as planned, it wouldn't be as car-centric.
also, the subway line would only be underground for part of its length, it would be elevated at the far reaches.
it is true that ridership is down, but I think that is a temporary effect of the pandemic. once people start going back to the office, that will likely change.

The composite transit demand model developed by Nelson-Nygaard for SEPTA's Bus Revolution project (viewable as layer 40 on this map) suggests that there could be relatively high demand for transit along the Roosevelt Boulevard Corridor at least to Cottman Avenue, especially around Oxford Circle.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

I think we've debated this before. Your point that the NE is car-centric is the effect, not the cause. it's car-centric because it doesn't have the subway line. if they had built the subway a century ago as planned, it wouldn't be as car-centric.
also, the subway line would only be underground for part of its length, it would be elevated at the far reaches.
it is true that ridership is down, but I think that is a temporary effect of the pandemic. once people start going back to the office, that will likely change.

You think a multiple billion dollar subway along the quasi-suburban, mostly car-centric Roosevelt Boulevard and Northeast Philadelphia will ever happen in the United States, let alone in the state of Pennsylvania? I think a BRT Line is much more realistic and much more financially feasible.

Plus, you'd rather SEPTA focus on something like this rather than focus transit needs in areas that are already built up, urban and walkable, or are building up, like: extending the BSL to the Navy Yard, a Cultural Branch from Broad Street along the Parkway to Fairmount Park, a Regional Rail stop/station at the Zoo, Light Rail along the Delaware Waterfront, etc. etc.

There's far more important transit projects for SEPTA to tackle before a subway line along the Boulevard would ever be realistic, especially when there are far more financially realistic options for Transit along the boulevard.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by summersm343

You think a multiple billion dollar subway along the quasi-suburban, mostly car-centric Roosevelt Boulevard and Northeast Philadelphia will ever happen in the United States, let alone in the state of Pennsylvania? I think a BRT Line is much more realistic and much more financially feasible.

Plus, you'd rather SEPTA focus on something like this rather than focus transit needs in areas that are already built up, urban and walkable, or are building up, like: extending the BSL to the Navy Yard, a Cultural Branch from Broad Street along the Parkway to Fairmount Park, a Regional Rail stop/station at the Zoo, Light Rail along the Delaware Waterfront, etc. etc.

There's far more important transit projects for SEPTA to tackle before a subway line along the Boulevard would ever be realistic, especially when there are far more financially realistic options for Transit along the boulevard.

the argument isn't whether it would realistically be built soon - I think we all know the answer to that. the question is whether it *should* be built, and what the benefits to the city would be if they did. and if it is a great idea that would benefit lots of people, but its funding is non-existent, maybe this is an opportunity to look at alternative ways of doing it. it's too captivating of an idea to dismiss as you keep wanting to do.
again, you keep bringing up that the NE is largely suburban and car centric - and I keep saying that this is an effect of not having a subway line, not the cause of it. the reason it hasn't been built yet is not because it's a car-centric area, it's because of funding. if they had built it, it would not be as car-centric as it is now. cars are a necessity there because of the lack of transit.
and the other projects you mention are all also necessary, and have a better chance of being built. but it's not either-or. with all of that transit infrastructure in place throughout the city, it only helps the system overall. the key to a successful transit system is in its connectivity. transit systems built in isolation do not succeed overall. but the more places the system takes you, the more people will use it and the more successful it will be.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

the argument isn't whether it would realistically be built soon - I think we all know the answer to that. the question is whether it *should* be built, and what the benefits to the city would be if they did. and if it is a great idea that would benefit lots of people, but its funding is non-existent, maybe this is an opportunity to look at alternative ways of doing it. it's too captivating of an idea to dismiss as you keep wanting to do.
again, you keep bringing up that the NE is largely suburban and car centric - and I keep saying that this is an effect of not having a subway line, not the cause of it. the reason it hasn't been built yet is not because it's a car-centric area, it's because of funding. if they had built it, it would not be as car-centric as it is now. cars are a necessity there because of the lack of transit.
and the other projects you mention are all also necessary, and have a better chance of being built. but it's not either-or. with all of that transit infrastructure in place throughout the city, it only helps the system overall. the key to a successful transit system is in its connectivity. transit systems built in isolation do not succeed overall. but the more places the system takes you, the more people will use it and the more successful it will be.

I agree 100% that a subway line SHOULD be built along Roosevelt Boulevard... please don't mistake my comments for saying this shouldn't happen. I'm just saying that I'd prefer to be more realistic and focus on what we can actually accomplish, instead of dreaming about something that will likely never happen in our lifetimes.

I'm not dismissing transit along the Boulevard at all, but rather think there are alternative forms that can do the trick instead of boring under miles and miles of land which would cost billions and billions of dollars in the US and would never get funding in the current United States or State of Pennsylvania.

BRT (Bus Rapid Transit), would have a similar outcome to a subway line, and would be MUCH more affordable and possible to do. For what it's worth, I think a BRT Line or Light Rail line should be built for the "Cultural Line" along the Parkway as well in the old City Branch tunnel.


https://www.intelligenttransport.com...exible-option/


https://www.kpbs.org/news/border-imm...d-us-urban-pla


https://www.houston.org/news/bus-rap...re-lines-works

The second more realistic option would probably be an elevated rail line, similar to the one being proposed for King of Prussia. But even as we've seen for this.... it's over $2.1B.... an elevated rail line along the Boulevard would be much long and much more costly.
https://www.kingofprussiarail.com/

[William Van Alen]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Plus, you'd rather SEPTA focus on something like this rather than focus transit needs in areas that are already built up, urban and walkable, or are building up, like: extending the BSL to the Navy Yard, a Cultural Branch from Broad Street along the Parkway to Fairmount Park

Was thinking about the city branch tunnel recently - I've heard of ideas of extending PATCO to 30th St, the airport, and other destinations west of the Schuylkill, but has anybody ever suggested turning PATCO into the cultural branch instead? It would probably involve more tunneling, but you could squeeze in another station in Rittenhouse/Market West (possibly with trolley transfer), then have an Art Museum stop and then a stop or two running under 33rd by the park so it would be hitting some very high density areas.

Not sure how much demand there would be for it, but it would look great on a map. Integrate the fares/transfers better with SEPTA, and PATCO would suddenly become much more useful outside of its current status as a park and ride-focused line which essentially functions as a high speed commuter line for Jersey office workers.

[EastSideHBG]

Montgomery County Commissioners Vote to Consider Formation of Regional Rail Authority

Yesterday, the Montgomery County Commissioners took another important step to restore passenger rail service between Reading and Philadelphia in partnership with Berks and Chester counties. During their regularly scheduled meeting, the commissioners unanimously approved a resolution to publicly advertise and consider the formation of the Schuylkill River Passenger Rail Authority (SRPRA).

If approved, the new transportation authority would have the power to formalize agreements, procure funding, and provide for a direct governmental body that can work with AMTRAK, PennDOT, the Federal Railroad Administration and other necessary partners.

Proposed bylaws and articles of incorporation for the SRPRA are now posted on the county website at www.montcopa.org/SRPRA for public review. The commissioners welcome public comment on the proposed SRPRA by email at commissioners@montcopa.org. The public can also provide comment in person at the SRPRA hearing scheduled for Wednesday, April 20 at 2 p.m. The hearing will be held in the Commissioners Board Room of One Montgomery Plaza located at 425 Swede Street, 8th floor, Norristown, PA 19404.

The Board of Commissioners for Chester and Berks counties will also consider a resolution to establish the SRPRA during their respective meetings in April.

https://northpennnow.com/montgomery-...-p5268-187.htm

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by William Van Alen

Was thinking about the city branch tunnel recently - I've heard of ideas of extending PATCO to 30th St, the airport, and other destinations west of the Schuylkill, but has anybody ever suggested turning PATCO into the cultural branch instead? It would probably involve more tunneling, but you could squeeze in another station in Rittenhouse/Market West (possibly with trolley transfer), then have an Art Museum stop and then a stop or two running under 33rd by the park so it would be hitting some very high density areas.

Not sure how much demand there would be for it, but it would look great on a map. Integrate the fares/transfers better with SEPTA, and PATCO would suddenly become much more useful outside of its current status as a park and ride-focused line which essentially functions as a high speed commuter line for Jersey office workers.

Critics have lambasted the DRPA in the distant past for funding cultural things that weren't part of their core mission, such as a half million grant to the Freedom Theatre on North Broad St, another half million to the Barnes Foundation, as well as grants to WHYY and Community College.

Those were in 2003. A 2010 Inquirer article summarizes DRPA's charitable give from 2004, until they discontinued such grants in 2010:
https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news...to_groups.html

[EastSideHBG]

Virtual open house tonight for the KOP Rail:

https://www.kingofprussiarail.com/toc

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Montgomery County Commissioners Vote to Consider Formation of Regional Rail Authority

Yesterday, the Montgomery County Commissioners took another important step to restore passenger rail service between Reading and Philadelphia in partnership with Berks and Chester counties. During their regularly scheduled meeting, the commissioners unanimously approved a resolution to publicly advertise and consider the formation of the Schuylkill River Passenger Rail Authority (SRPRA).

If approved, the new transportation authority would have the power to formalize agreements, procure funding, and provide for a direct governmental body that can work with AMTRAK, PennDOT, the Federal Railroad Administration and other necessary partners.

Proposed bylaws and articles of incorporation for the SRPRA are now posted on the county website at www.montcopa.org/SRPRA for public review. The commissioners welcome public comment on the proposed SRPRA by email at commissioners@montcopa.org. The public can also provide comment in person at the SRPRA hearing scheduled for Wednesday, April 20 at 2 p.m. The hearing will be held in the Commissioners Board Room of One Montgomery Plaza located at 425 Swede Street, 8th floor, Norristown, PA 19404.

The Board of Commissioners for Chester and Berks counties will also consider a resolution to establish the SRPRA during their respective meetings in April.

https://northpennnow.com/montgomery-...-p5268-187.htm

Love this! Hope it happens. Missed opportunity not to have a train station in KOP, but otherwise think this is great.



https://www.co.berks.pa.us/Dept/Comm...nger-Rail.aspx

[chimpskibot]

Does anyone have an update on when the route 15 trolley will return? Is it looking like it will become the route 23? Is septa waiting on the trolley modernization funds to purchase new stock? Any insiders know?

[justremember]

Originally Posted by chimpskibot

Does anyone have an update on when the route 15 trolley will return? Is it looking like it will become the route 23? Is septa waiting on the trolley modernization funds to purchase new stock? Any insiders know?

Apparently not until 2023 at the earliest.

https://twitter.com/SEPTA_SOCIAL/sta...WHl5F8FKcak2wA