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  #61  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 7:05 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by TWAK View Post
I didn't even know Cleveland had metro (heavy urban subway) and I just checked the route...basically it hits the outskirts of downtown. Was it going to be a part of a loop?
Yes, there were various downtown loop plans in addition to the Euclid Ave. subway.

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Same goes for the light-rail...it's just on the outer edges of downtown.
The two Shaker Heights branches converge in the square and then run to Terminal Tower downtown. But then there's no downtown circulator. There probably is some sort of free bus, but most people don't know that free circulator buses exist.
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  #62  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 7:36 PM
BigDipper 80 BigDipper 80 is offline
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Cleveland's Red Line is really just "heavy rail in name only" - although it has subway-like trains, it's really effectively a light metro line like what St. Louis has. In fact, RTA is about to purchase a combined fleet of Siemens S200s (Muni Metro's LRV's) to run on all three rail lines in the coming years.
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  #63  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 7:39 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
It's the same problem as St. Louis's light rail system - the Red Line travels on an available ROW, meaning most of the station locations are not within walking distance of neighborhood business districts.
What "neighborhood business districts"? Is there even one?

Have you been to Cleveland's East Side lately? It's gone. The heavy rail serves the districts that need to be served. It serves Lakewood, Detroit Shoreway, Edgewater, Little Italy, Shaker (ok, light rail), Case Western, Cultural District, Cleveland Clinic, East Cleveland (dumpy but dense).

Yeah, a portion runs through an industrial wasteland, but the surrounding residential neighborhoods are largely gone. The local transit authorities aren't responsible for repopulating Cleveland's ghettohoods. These are macro trends, beyond their scope. You could run subways down Cleveland arterials every 90 seconds, and you still aren't going to get Tokyo, or even Boston. You need people willing to live transit-oriented lifestyles, in Cleveland.

If, in an alternate universe, Cleveland were say Toronto, the system would get a million annual riders. But it isn't. The problem isn't the system, it's the lifestyle, the extreme U.S. auto-orientation, the avoidance of black and poor areas, the generations of suburban lifestyles, the limiting of immigration, the tax preference for SFHs, the federal policy that generally makes urban living more difficult.
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  #64  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 8:00 PM
edale edale is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I think there's plenty of evidence.

Ohio has some of the best trains in America, right now, with minimal ridership. Cleveland is one of only ten U.S. metros with heavy rail service, yet ridership is terrible.
You're just talking out of your ass. Ohio has some of the best trains in America right now? You're talking about the Cleveland Red Line, which has maybe 3 stations in viable locations. It was built on existing ROW, so many of the stations were never well located. But other stations existed to serve huge industrial job centers which have all disappeared. Seriously, look at these station locations, and tell me this is indicative of some of the best transit in America.

East 34th

East 55th

East 79th

There maybe 3-4 stops that are actually in decent locations with stations. Little Italy, Airport, Tower City (the only stop on all of downtown/city center), and Ohio City/W 25th.

Furthermore, I don't understand the connection between poor ridership on Cleveland's Red Line and viability of intercity rail in Ohio. They're totally different. Cleveland has lost 2/3 of its population, and its population and jobs have sprawled across the vast NEO region. Not unlike most cities in the rust belt. That affects the viability of transit, but doesn't really impact regional travel patterns. I took a Greyhound bus from Cincinnati to Cleveland (which stopped in Columbus) several years ago, and it was completely sold out, and they run multiple buses per day. I've also taken the Ultimate Air Shuttle, which was a luxe air service that went between Cleveland's lakefront Burke Airport and Cincinnati's Lunken Airport. It, too, was sold out and mostly with business travelers-- some of whom were going down and back on the same day. My parents routinely used this to visit my sister when she was living in Cleveland and it was very popular. I think that service stopped due to Covid, and I'm not sure if it's back or not.

Point is, there is definitely a market for transportation between the biggest cities in the state other than the private vehicle. There are tons of college students without cars who would benefit from having train service. Business travelers would definitely also benefit.

You sound like the Republicans you despise when you say it will never work because...Cleveland's Red Line has poor ridership? Truly a bizarre statement.
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  #65  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 8:02 PM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The problem isn't the system, it's the lifestyle, the extreme U.S. auto-orientation
and i'm arguing that both are factors.

and i'll 100% stand by that.



i doubt you'll find too many other transit nerds who will agree with your assessment that cleveland's red line is "first rate", even by stupidly low US standards.

go to google maps and streetview yourself around the stations. most of them are FAR from "first rate" in terms of location/integration.
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  #66  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 8:15 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
You're just talking out of your ass. Ohio has some of the best trains in America right now? You're talking about the Cleveland Red Line, which has maybe 3 stations in viable locations. It was built on existing ROW, so many of the stations were never well located. But other stations existed to serve huge industrial job centers which have all disappeared. Seriously, look at these station locations, and tell me this is indicative of some of the best transit in America.

East 34th

East 55th

East 79th
I'm not clear what you're arguing here. You seem to agree the East Side is a wasteland. Certainly you don't think that moving the ROW a few blocks north or south would make a big difference, right? Certainly you don't think tunneling the line, or running trains more frequently, would make a big difference, right?

And this is the endless fallacy of U.S. transit advocacy. When something doesn't work, let's do more of the same. The ridership isn't good bc we didn't built enough yet. Cleveland only has has one heavy rail line; it needs ten at 60 second frequencies before we actually admit that yup, 2023 Cleveland isn't really set up for transit. We need a lifestyle change.
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
Furthermore, I don't understand the connection between poor ridership on Cleveland's Red Line and viability of intercity rail in Ohio. They're totally different.
Where on earth does intercity rail work where local rail doesn't? Why would a completely autocentric lifestyle be discarded when doing intercity travel? Can you give an existing example? Why would someone travel from Cleveland to Columbus by transit, while refusing to use transit on either end, instead of just driving?

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Originally Posted by edale View Post
You sound like the Republicans you despise when you say it will never work because...Cleveland's Red Line has poor ridership? Truly a bizarre statement.
On the contrary, these are the investments that anti-transit types usually love, because they make transit advocacy look silly, and doom good transit investments. This is why we have Congress dumping billions in trolleys in Oklahoma City and the like, while existing bus service gets starved. HSR in 2023 Ohio, will be just like Tokyo-Osaka.
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  #67  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 8:40 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
Furthermore, I don't understand the connection between poor ridership on Cleveland's Red Line and viability of intercity rail in Ohio. They're totally different. Cleveland has lost 2/3 of its population, and its population and jobs have sprawled across the vast NEO region. Not unlike most cities in the rust belt. That affects the viability of transit, but doesn't really impact regional travel patterns. I took a Greyhound bus from Cincinnati to Cleveland (which stopped in Columbus) several years ago, and it was completely sold out, and they run multiple buses per day. I've also taken the Ultimate Air Shuttle, which was a luxe air service that went between Cleveland's lakefront Burke Airport and Cincinnati's Lunken Airport. It, too, was sold out and mostly with business travelers-- some of whom were going down and back on the same day. My parents routinely used this to visit my sister when she was living in Cleveland and it was very popular. I think that service stopped due to Covid, and I'm not sure if it's back or not.
This. Business travelers alone would be a potential market. Most business regular business travelers would rather not put that mileage on their personal cars driving back and forth. And if they decide to rent cars instead, that's not going to be more convenient than just hopping on a train for a couple of hours.

Also, most people would be compelled to use the trains for the same reason they'd be compelled to fly: it's most likely going to be faster than driving.
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  #68  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 9:16 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
This. Business travelers alone would be a potential market. Most business regular business travelers would rather not put that mileage on their personal cars driving back and forth. And if they decide to rent cars instead, that's not going to be more convenient than just hopping on a train for a couple of hours.

Also, most people would be compelled to use the trains for the same reason they'd be compelled to fly: it's most likely going to be faster than driving.
Business travelers get reimbursed for driving, and will have to drive on either end of the trip anyways.

And they aren't compelled to fly. There are almost no such flights.
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  #69  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 9:16 PM
edale edale is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I'm not clear what you're arguing here. You seem to agree the East Side is a wasteland. Certainly you don't think that moving the ROW a few blocks north or south would make a big difference, right? Certainly you don't think tunneling the line, or running trains more frequently, would make a big difference, right?
You stated that intercity Ohio rail wouldn't work because Cleveland's Rapid has poor ridership. But then you admit that the residential and industrial areas in much of the city have been decimated. Who's going to ride the trains if no one lives or works nearby? If the Rapid ran through dense, populated neighborhoods, and stations were located in accessible locations rather than down in industrial ravines, and still no one was riding, then you might have a semblance of a point. The stations with the best ridership are, unsurprisingly, those located in healthy neighborhoods with urban stations like Little Italy and Ohio City stations.


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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
And this is the endless fallacy of U.S. transit advocacy. When something doesn't work, let's do more of the same. The ridership isn't good bc we didn't built enough yet. Cleveland only has has one heavy rail line; it needs ten at 60 second frequencies before we actually admit that yup, 2023 Cleveland isn't really set up for transit. We need a lifestyle change.
I don't think anyone is advocating for a huge expansion of Cleveland's Rapid. I honestly don't even know what you're talking about. What we need is for the city to stop losing population and for people and jobs to stop sprawling out to the suburbs and beyond. We need development around existing transit stations so they're not located in wastelands. Also, it's important to note that there have been transit success stories in Ohio. Cleveland's Health Line is one of the best and most ridden BRT routes in the country. Cincinnati's streetcar, which only serves the urban core, is one of the top performing rail lines for passengers per vehicle hour in the country, and has more annual ridership than streetcar lines in much bigger cities (ahem, Detroit).

But again...all of this seems fairly irrelevant for discussion of intercity travel. Thankfully the airlines decided to look at more factors than the performance of Cleveland's Red Line when determining routes.

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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Where on earth does intercity rail work where local rail doesn't? Why would a completely autocentric lifestyle be discarded when doing intercity travel? Can you give an existing example?
There are dozens of cities and towns served by Amtrak that don't have local rail systems. Look at the success of the Brightline in Florida as a recent example. Only Miami has rail, and its ridership is also nothing to write home about. But the Brightline has been very successful at attracting riders. It will soon open in Orlando-- a region without a local rail system.

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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Why would someone travel from Cleveland to Columbus by transit, while refusing to use transit on either end, instead of just driving?
Why would someone fly to a city while refusing to use transit in the city they're traveling to? Also, plenty of people don't have cars, don't like driving, don't want to mess with parking, want to work or relax on their journey rather than drive... Between Ohio State and University of Cincinnati alone, there are over 100,000 students- most of whom don't have cars. Again, you sound like an anti-rail Republican with this talking point.

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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
On the contrary, these are the investments that anti-transit types usually love, because they make transit advocacy look silly, and doom good transit investments. This is why we have Congress dumping billions in trolleys in Oklahoma City and the like, while existing bus service gets starved. HSR in 2023 Ohio, will be just like Tokyo-Osaka.
HSR isn't being proposed for Ohio, and you're the only one making comparisons to Tokyo and Osaka.

Last edited by edale; Feb 3, 2023 at 11:13 PM.
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  #70  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 9:23 PM
edale edale is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Business travelers get reimbursed for driving, and will have to drive on either end of the trip anyways.

And they aren't compelled to fly. There are almost no such flights.
Business travelers aren't compelled to fly for 4+ hour driving trips? Uh...what?

This whole discussion is reminding me of when you made the outlandish claim that there isn't a market for LA to Vegas flights because you thought the drive was like 2 hours. When in reality, it's a 5 hour drive and the busiest domestic air route

It's ok to admit you don't know what you're talking about every so often.
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  #71  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 9:31 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Business travelers get reimbursed for driving, and will have to drive on either end of the trip anyways.

And they aren't compelled to fly. There are almost no such flights.
I've been a frequent business traveler for over a decade. Nobody that I know would regularly use their personal vehicle for work travel unless they worked for a shitty company that required them to use their own cars.
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  #72  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2023, 2:40 AM
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How likely is the possibility that high speed rail will connect the 3 C's some time in the not too distant future? It seems like the more relevant question is whether restoration of Amtrak service between these cities has a potential for success. Something on the order of what Michigan, Illinois and even Missouri do wouldn't be a huge lift. There would be several trains a day. Some sort of capital investment would be required to repair existing tracks and address the worst bottlenecks. And the state, of course, would need to subsidize operations. That's probably the biggest obstacle.

I don't know Ohio, but is driving between the major cities currently problematic? The best spur to public transit usage is the difficulty of driving, hence the survival of legacy rail systems in cities like New York, Chicago, SF, Philadelphia and Boston. But even if Ohio interstates are still mostly gridlock free, there could still be a market for intercity train service from students, tourists, senior citizens, people who hate to drive, and Ohio State football fans.

Back to the question of Cleveland's rail transit system, I've always thought it was fairly impressive given the size of the metro and the extent to which the core has hollowed out. I do recall a City Nerd (the subject of another recent thread) video citing Cleveland's system as one of the most underutilized in terms of passengers per route mile. But I don't think that rules out the possibility of a market for intercity train service in Ohio.
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  #73  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2023, 3:25 AM
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orlando does have sunrail commuter rail which runs ~60mi between a number of major secondary cities in the region (downtown sanford, altamonte springs, winter park, orlando and kissimmee as well as a direct connection to the future brightline station) with 20 trips daily. that's a heck of a lot better than some other commuter rail systems (nashville, minneapolis come to mind)
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  #74  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2023, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by FromSD View Post

Back to the question of Cleveland's rail transit system, I've always thought it was fairly impressive given the size of the metro and the extent to which the core has hollowed out.
Overall, yes, Cleveland has more rail transit infrastructure than your typical medium size Midwest city. My only beef was with the characterization of Cleveland's heavy rail red line being "first rate".

A "first rate" intracity heavy rail rapid transit line does not have over 80% of its stations oriented to park n' ride lots and/or located in peripheral light industrial no-man's lands.

I agree with Crawford that a big piece of the equation in Cleveland's extremely low rail transit usage is middle America's aversion to public transit in general.

BUT I also maintain that the red line's relatively poor design/layout/neighborhood integration/function is another contributing factor.

I very highly doubt that any transit nerds, other than Crawford apparently, would deem it "first rate".
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  #75  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2023, 5:47 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by FromSD View Post
I don't know Ohio, but is driving between the major cities currently problematic? The best spur to public transit usage is the difficulty of driving, hence the survival of legacy rail systems in cities like New York, Chicago, SF, Philadelphia and Boston. But even if Ohio interstates are still mostly gridlock free, there could still be a market for intercity train service from students, tourists, senior citizens, people who hate to drive, and Ohio State football fans.
If we're talking about true HSR then the train will almost certainly be the fastest option, and most people would obviously prefer the fastest option to get from point A to point B. Cleveland and Cincinnati are about the same distance apart as London and Paris, and even though the route taken by Eurostar is indirect it still takes just 2 hours and 16 mins to travel between the two cities. It's faster to take the Eurotrain from London to Paris than it is to fly commercially when you factor check-in and security lines.

A true HSR route between Cleveland and Cincinnati would likely make the trip in about 1.5 - 2 hours, since the route is more direct. But even a conventional train could make the trip in under 2.5 hours versus the 3.5 - 4 hours it takes to drive.
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  #76  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2023, 6:33 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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How likely is the possibility that high speed rail will connect the 3 C's some time in the not too distant future?
Zero. The high speed plan for Ohio disappeared with the collapse of the Japanese economy 1990-91. That's when Japanese companies stopped gobbling up family-owned mid-sized companies in the Midwest and taking over the US auto parts supply chain. There is still a large Japanese presence in the area, but in the 1980s, one company after another was bought or driven into bankruptcy by Japanese investors.

Part of Japan's motivation for developing high speed rail back in the 1960s was to export the technology to other countries. Same for France. In each case, they have largely failed to export off-the-shelf technology. Japan was seeking to establish a supply chain for its high speed trains in the United States and Ohio was going to be the demonstration project.

By comparison, the United States has reaped billions upon billions in income by exporting military technology. The F-35 is the latest example of this - thousands of planes will be sold to foreign counties that will require contanst maintenance by US companies. It also keeps our allies in line - if Israel, Germany, etc., turn their backs on the U.S., we can stop providing support for the super-expensive military equipment they have bought from us, quickly rendering it useless.



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It seems like the more relevant question is whether restoration of Amtrak service between these cities has a potential for success. Something on the order of what Michigan, Illinois and even Missouri do wouldn't be a huge lift. There would be several trains a day. Some sort of capital investment would be required to repair existing tracks and address the worst bottlenecks. And the state, of course, would need to subsidize operations. That's probably the biggest obstacle.
The HSR plan was replaced by the conventional diesel-powered "Ohio Hub" plan, which was going upgrade track and operate a network centered around Columbus. This plan's budget always anticipated using old Amtrak equipment to get the thing off the ground quickly. However, when Obama passed the 2009 stimulus, other states claimed the old Amtrak equipment first. That meant when the state was awarded $400 million, almost all of it was to be devoured by the construction of new, foreign-made passenger trains. This left almost no money for track upgrades, and meant the trains were going to inch along on a route where freight trains had priority on single-track sections.

A big expense for any Ohio plan will be upgrades in Cincinnati from the Ivorydale Junction into downtown. Right now, the railroads stage mile-long freight trains on the triple-track section between this junction and the yard throat. They do this because sometimes it's optimal for the train that arrives first to enter the yard second (a computer determines how the cars will be sorted, and so which train should enter first).

Adding regular passenger travel to this mix will require a fourth mainline track plus a bypass of the two huge yards (they appear as one but actually function completely separately):
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1241.../data=!3m1!1e3

Cincinnati built a new future underground rail station in the early 2000s that is currently only used by buses:
https://ronnysalerno.com/queencitydi...ed-subway.html

This facility has space for two or three platforms, plus tail tracks.


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I don't know Ohio, but is driving between the major cities currently problematic?
If you don't have a car, yes. There is almost no intercity bus service as Greyhound was bought by a hedge fund and is being gutted. Some of the stations have moved out of the downtowns.
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  #77  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2023, 6:38 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
If we're talking about true HSR then the train will almost certainly be the fastest option

...although the stretches of open country between the cities are now so short, thanks to sprawl, that surprisingly small stretches will allow full-speed. It would be a similar situation to California, where there will be long approaches, and perhaps the entire stretch between Cincinnati and Dayton, where there is no full-speed operation.

The Japanese plan was going to build HSR tracks on viaducts for 10+ miles above existing freight corridors approaching both Cincinnati and Cleveland. The real speed advantage is probably in these approaches, not out in the open country.
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  #78  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2023, 7:14 PM
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Damn. Ohio had the opportunity to build a Shinkansen style network connecting the largest cities/Metros.

Imagine a beautiful trainset like this but in red, white, blue Ohio State flag colors.

One thing I always loved about Ohio is 3 metropolitan areas over 2 million people, and other mid-ish sized Metros (Dayton, Akron, Toledo). I like Cleveland and Columbus, but really want to spend at least a weekend exploring Cincinnati.

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  #79  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2023, 8:28 PM
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What is wrong with Cleveland's Red Line? If you were the local transit head, and given $1 billion, what would you change, which you think would result in a surge in ridership?
according to the latest Q3 2022 ridership stats it only gets 8,100 daily riders.
https://www.apta.com/wp-content/uplo...rship-APTA.pdf

In a higher usage era for American public transit overall, say 15-20 years ago, Cleveland's Red Line would get ~15,000-20,000
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  #80  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2023, 8:36 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
One thing I always loved about Ohio is 3 metropolitan areas over 2 million people, and other mid-ish sized Metros (Dayton, Akron, Toledo). I like Cleveland and Columbus, but really want to spend at least a weekend exploring Cincinnati.
Tennessee is another state where an in-state system makes a lot of sense. The drive between Memphis and Nashville is...awful. Then, there is always a ton of traffic between Nashville and Knoxville, with two large inclines up to and then down from the Cumberland Plateau.
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