VIA Rail

[esquire]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Are you sure about that? While there might be some of those, I thought there were some isolated First Nation communities along the route. Don't forget that the station may not be "in the middle of town," but could be the closest way to get to civilization.

I have taken that train between Winnipeg and Toronto probably about 15-20 times in each direction and I do not ever remember seeing or being made aware of any kind of First Nation community that relied on the train as its main means of access the same way that one might see in Northern Manitoba along the Winnipeg-Churchill route where that is definitely a thing. Lots of FN clientele in the NWO region but from what I could tell, mostly going between the towns along the line which all have road access. People going to/coming from places without roads were either campers or people with cottages.

I mean, I don't claim definitive knowledge of the line but I certainly did not see anything like that and I just did a google news search that did not pull up any results I could find regarding First Nations affected by the loss of VIA service in Northwestern Ontario.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Places not on a rail line? Like where? Except for Vancouver Island and the island of Newfoundland, Most of the top 100 cities in Canada are all on rail lines. We still have the 4th largest not served by passenger service.

I propose spend enough money to serve as many Canadians as possible.

You keep switching back and forth for your justification for this. If you are worried about poor rural people without access to transit - there are tons of villages without a rail line near them that go without transit if you focus solely on providing a low frequency rail service only where there are railways. There are going to be vanishingly few people in the country who both live on rail line VIA could serve, but do not have road access. So using this as justification for daily rail service doesn't make sense.

Calgary doesn't have VIA service, but it has built (light) rail that serves hundreds of thousands of people every day compared to the dozens that might use your proposal. That is far more useful than a daily train to Winnipeg would be, which is why the CTrain exists and VIA service does not.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by esquire

I have taken that train between Winnipeg and Toronto probably about 15-20 times in each direction and I do not ever remember seeing or being made aware of any kind of First Nation community that relied on the train as its main means of access the same way that one might see in Northern Manitoba along the Winnipeg-Churchill route where that is definitely a thing. Lots of FN clientele in the NWO region but from what I could tell, mostly going between the towns along the line which all have road access. People going to/coming from places without roads were either campers or people with cottages.

The only busy O-D along the Canadian’s route in Northern Ontario seems to be between Armstrong (which certainly has road access) and Collins (to which Google Maps is not able to identify any path). I recall someone telling me that one major reason for travelling between the two points was to buy Alcohol (as one reserve is supposedly dry while the other one isn’t), but there is no other obvious way to access Collins without the Canadian (which suggests that the people in Collins must depend on the Canadian for far more essential reasons to travel than the Alcohol trade), so I’m really surprised that communities between SUDB and WHTR were so vocal about wanting their rail service increased from one to two round-trip, while there seems to be radio silence along the CN route...

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

The only busy O-D along the Canadian’s route in Northern Ontario seems to be between Armstrong (which certainly has road access) and Collins (to which Google Maps is not able to identify any path). I was told that it was mostly related to buying Alcohol (as one reservation is supposedly dry while the other one isn’t), but there is no other obvious way to access Collins without the Canadian, so I’m really surprised that communities between SUDB and WHTR were so vocal about wanting their rail service increased from one to two round-trip, while there seems to be radio silence along the CN route...

That is quintessentially Canadian! One's only option to get liquor is to take a government owned train at an inconvenient time to buy alcohol at a government owned store . I expect they cannot drink the externally purchased alcohol on the train, but may be able to purchase something onboard (with cash or a manual card machine, I assume)?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

You keep switching back and forth for your justification for this. If you are worried about poor rural people without access to transit - there are tons of villages without a rail line near them that go without transit if you focus solely on providing a low frequency rail service only where there are railways. There are going to be vanishingly few people in the country who both live on rail line VIA could serve, but do not have road access. So using this as justification for daily rail service doesn't make sense.

Calgary doesn't have VIA service, but it has built (light) rail that serves hundreds of thousands of people every day compared to the dozens that might use your proposal. That is far more useful than a daily train to Winnipeg would be, which is why the CTrain exists and VIA service does not.

I don't switch. I merely state one more on the list.

With Calgary, can I take an LRT to Edmonton? If you think it is a silly question, then so is the response that you don't think the 4th largest city needs it. It was stated before that the southern route was less subsidized than the existing route. It was canceled for politics. If you don't agree, then think of the fact that there is a Budd car in ON that does not connect to the rest of the Via service.

So, when someone points out something more, I will add to the growing list of reasons as to why more rail should exist.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Places not on a rail line? Like where? Except for Vancouver Island and the island of Newfoundland, Most of the top 100 cities in Canada are all on rail lines. We still have the 4th largest not served by passenger service.

Top 100? Canada only has 35 CMAs (41 if you extend the definition to include CAs with a population over 100,000). Anything smaller than that, while possibly worth stopping at if it is on route, it is likely too small to support a dedicated route on its own (though population is only 1 piece of the puzzle).

Looking at the 41 CMAs and CAs with a population over 100,000, 29 have Service with either VIA Rail or GO, or will have service with HFR. Of the remaining 12 "CMAs", 5 don't have track (Victoria, St. John's, Kelowna, Nanaimo, Fredericton). That leaves on 7 "CMAs" with track that don't (or won't) have train service (Calgary, Regina, Sherbrooke, Saint John, Thunder Bay, Lethbridge, and Red Deer).

Unfortunately Calgary and Red Deer won't get it any time soon since the Alberta government is betting on Hyperloop.

The remaining 5 are all under 250,000 and are located such that they would need their own dedicated line, which for cities that small, is expensive.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I propose spend enough money to serve as many Canadians as possible.

At what cost?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

The only busy O-D along the Canadian’s route in Northern Ontario seems to be between Armstrong (which certainly has road access) and Collins (to which Google Maps is not able to identify any path). I was told that it was mostly related to buying Alcohol (as one reservation is supposedly dry while the other one isn’t), but there is no other obvious way to access Collins without the Canadian, so I’m really surprised that communities between SUDB and WHTR were so vocal about wanting their rail service increased from one to two round-trip, while there seems to be radio silence along the CN route...

Interesting, I was looking at Collins, and it seemed to have a nearby community, but I couldn't find any good evidence.

If the Alcohol rumour is true, the radio silence may be because the lack of service cuts the supply of alcohol to the reserve, and is helping to keep it dry.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

The only busy O-D along the Canadian’s route in Northern Ontario seems to be between Armstrong (which certainly has road access) and Collins (to which Google Maps is not able to identify any path). I recall someone telling me that one major reason for travelling between the two points was to buy Alcohol (as one reserve is supposedly dry while the other one isn’t), but there is no other obvious way to access Collins without the Canadian (which suggests that the people in Collins must depend on the Canadian for far more essential reasons to travel than the Alcohol trade), so I’m really surprised that communities between SUDB and WHTR were so vocal about wanting their rail service increased from one to two round-trip, while there seems to be radio silence along the CN route...

OK, so now I've learned something too... thanks. So there is at least one all-season community which doesn't have road access.

Googling it further, it appears that Collins is home to about 40 members of Namaygoosisagagun First Nation (not sure how many others live there). Access is either by rail, snowmobile, boat or float plane. So there are alternatives, even if they're all probably more expensive or more inconvenient than VIA Rail.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Top 100? Canada only has 35 CMAs (41 if you extend the definition to include CAs with a population over 100,000). Anything smaller than that, while possibly worth stopping at if it is on route, it is likely too small to support a dedicated route on its own (though population is only 1 piece of the puzzle).

Looking at the 41 CMAs and CAs with a population over 100,000, 29 have Service with either VIA Rail or GO, or will have service with HFR. Of the remaining 12 "CMAs", 5 don't have track (Victoria, St. John's, Kelowna, Nanaimo, Fredericton). That leaves on 7 "CMAs" with track that don't (or won't) have train service (Calgary, Regina, Sherbrooke, Saint John, Thunder Bay, Lethbridge, and Red Deer).

Unfortunately Calgary and Red Deer won't get it any time soon since the Alberta government is betting on Hyperloop.

The remaining 5 are all under 250,000 and are located such that they would need their own dedicated line, which for cities that small, is expensive.

"5 don't have track (Victoria, St. John's, Kelowna, Nanaimo, Fredericton)."

Actually, 2 of those do have track, but they need to be rehabilitated. That would be Victoria and Naniamo.

The only one on that list of 3 that might be viable is Fredericton. Yes, the line has been pulled. However, if there was ever the plan of bringing more regional rail to the Maritimes, putting in the rail again might be worth it.

So, in short, the only ones of those that could be agreed is St. John's and Kelowna.

"That leaves on 7 "CMAs" with track that don't (or won't) have train service (Calgary, Regina, Sherbrooke, Saint John, Thunder Bay, Lethbridge, and Red Deer). "

If the southern Canadian returned, that would take 3 of those. The line from Edmonton south could take the other 2.

That leaves Saint John and Sherbrooke.

Saint John could come back under 1 of 2 ways.
1) A regional rail for the Maritimes.
2) if CP allows the return of the Atlantic.

#2 is more reasonable, and a line from Fredericton on new track down to Saint John then to Moncton would work.

If the Atlantic were ever to come back, that would reconnect Sherbrooke.

So, we have 2 CMAs over 100,000 that are not easily returned to Via's service. One because of an island and one because of mountains.

Originally Posted by roger1818

At what cost?

At what cost is it to build and maintain roads, or subsidize buses or air carriers? It really comes down to prioritizing what we spend our taxes on.

A simple way to bring more relevance to Via in the west would be alternating the southern and northern route daily. So, there is daily service between Toronto-Vancouver, but it still is 3 days each way. That extra day? I don't know....

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by roger1818

If the Alcohol rumour is true, the radio silence may be because the lack of service cuts the supply of alcohol to the reserve, and is helping to keep it dry.

I’ve rephrased my remarks in the last few minutes to better ensure that it doesn’t get misinterpreted as exploiting the stereotype that this country’s native population are largely addicts who’s only contribution to the Canadian economy is to reinvest large chunks of their government handouts into hard liquor, but given that one of the main motives for Alcohol abuse is to numb and distract yourself from the hardships you are experiencing in your life and around you (and of which there are painfully many for those living in First Nations reserves, starting from boiled-water advisories over the devastations caused by a wave of suicides - especially amongst the Youth, and the legacies of the residential school system and other horrors of colonialism), I would expect vocal (or even physical) protests to become more and not less likely when you start depriving these people from their preferred substance:

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

I recall someone telling me that one major reason for travelling between the two points was to buy Alcohol (as one reserve is supposedly dry while the other one isn’t), but there is no other obvious way to access Collins without the Canadian (which suggests that the people in Collins must depend on the Canadian for far more essential reasons to travel than the Alcohol trade), so I’m really surprised that communities between SUDB and WHTR were so vocal about wanting their rail service increased from one to two round-trip, while there seems to be radio silence along the CN route...

[Gat-Train]

VIA rail service map 1978 and 2020.

This country is a meme.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

VIA rail service map 1978 and 2020.

This country is a meme.

Someone might give some sort of excuse. Reality is, there is no excuse.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Someone might give some sort of excuse. Reality is, there is no excuse.

There is no excuse necessary, lines on a map do not dictate what is good infrastructure.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by milomilo

There is no excuse necessary, lines on a map do not dictate what is good infrastructure.

[ChildishGavino]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

VIA rail service map 1978 and 2020.

This country is a meme.

Who needs drugs when you can just look at this and despair

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

There is no excuse necessary, lines on a map do not dictate what is good infrastructure.

Just like highways, airplane routes, power lines, oil pipelines, etc?

So, what does dictate good infrastructure?

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by milomilo

There is no excuse necessary, lines on a map do not dictate what is good infrastructure.

Well I wouldn't really consider the top picture "good." More like necessary or the bare minimum of what a developed country should have. Why don't we have the 4th largest CMA connected to the rest of the country by rail?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Well I wouldn't really consider the top picture "good." More like necessary or the bare minimum of what a developed country should have. Why don't we have the 4th largest CMA connected to the rest of the country by rail?

I have been asking that for years. The best answer seems to be "there is no demand for it because bus service is almost non existent."

[casper]

Originally Posted by esquire

OK, so now I've learned something too... thanks. So there is at least one all-season community which doesn't have road access.

Googling it further, it appears that Collins is home to about 40 members of Namaygoosisagagun First Nation (not sure how many others live there). Access is either by rail, snowmobile, boat or float plane. So there are alternatives, even if they're all probably more expensive or more inconvenient than VIA Rail.

Interesting Wikipedia description of the community. Looking at a map not certain where can go by boat. There is a very big lake but no other communities on it.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Someone might give some sort of excuse. Reality is, there is no excuse.

What the map is missing is the old BC Rail passenger line. I would expect that to be a high prority to restoring than expanded Via rail service. That said the case for brining back the BC Rail passenger line is poor. at best. Perhaps a Westcoast express expansion to Whistler.

The lease of the BC Rail track from the provincial government to CN permits the province to use the line for passenger service.