How Is Covid-19 Impacting Life in Your City?

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

Once somebody is in their 70s they have already lived a full life.

Full life ≠ long life and 70ish really isn't that old. It was before we had electricity and running water.

[Matthew]

You are likely right and if it was possible, someone in Florida or Texas likely would've tried by now. But does it fall under dress code or something medical, since it's for health reasons. It is a medical device and not a clothing item. You are told to wear it for medical reasons. Your health is personal and viewed very differently than a shirt, shoes, and pants. It would be interesting to see someone try.

I've also seen a local celebrity here in Atlanta publicly challenge the dress code for a local restaurant. He wanted to wear work-out clothes in an upper-end restaurant and was refused service. I think it led to a change at that restaurant?

[eschaton]

The way things typically work is businesses are allowed to set whatever sort of entrance requirements they want, so long as it doesn't run afoul of something like federal anti-discrimination law.

There is no "right to shop" or "right to dine."

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

Yes, but there's a big difference between dying 1 year early and 50 years early.

You'll never understand life expectancy tables. For every year you live, your ultimate life expectancy increases because you've already NOT died in the year past. These people are NOT dying 1 year early. Some are dying 10 years early or more even if they are old.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Out of curiosity...

Could someone take a restaurant or retailer to court over mask requirements?

They can try, but if you can require shoes and a shirt, why can't you require a mask? Call it a fashion statement.

Can a restaurant owner or their employees with no medical training, no medical degree, and no license, give you (the customer) medical advice (for your health and the health of others) and prescribe a medical device (mask) and do so without privately seeing you in an office (likely not even being on-site in the case of the owner), not looking at your medical history, not allowing you to refuse their medical advice or get a second opinion? Giving medical advice and prescribing a medical device, without a license, as a requirement to enter somewhere is likely a violation of law?

Interesting question because I've spent a fair amount of money on masks in the last year (now they've gotten much cheaper) and I'm wondering if they can be deducted from my income tax as a "medical device". I suspect not and that they fall in the same category as OTC medications. If they are not recognized as a prescription medical device for one purpose, probably not for another either.

But the bottom line is that not many restaurants are adopting these policies UNLESS the local health department has either recommended them or required them and that's probably the deciding factor. There's not much question that it is legal as a mandated public health measure.

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The way things typically work is businesses are allowed to set whatever sort of entrance requirements they want, so long as it doesn't run afoul of something like federal anti-discrimination law.

There is no "right to shop" or "right to dine."

Even with personal medical choices, like masking?

Also, while many businesses aren't essential, what about those that are? Businesses you would have to visit? Places like groceries or hardware that are called essential and are viewed somewhat differently. More than likely it would be someone without access to the internet that must visit the store? And the crowd that is strongly against masking would likely find that person if they could take it to court? I'm guessing the answer is still the same or someone would've tried this by now?

If I ran a retail or restaurant business, I would likely leave it to the customers to decide on their own, since so many in this region of the country are strongly against masks. Also, with worker shortages, it likely becomes difficult to keep workers when they are forced to confront those strongly against masks. At present, most customers at businesses here in metro Atlanta do mask, even without requirements.

I'm not anti-mask and will wear a mask at any business requiring it. I also support vaccine passports and wish this would expand to more cities, including Atlanta. Lauren and I are vaccinated and mask for our young son who can't get vaccinated. I just watch those that are anti-mask, as they protest, and wanted to know why we haven't seen something like this? Maybe even a governor using an executive order to forbid businesses from requiring masks. (Not saying any names or parties to keep it from being political) That is another interesting question? Can some of these governors (again, not naming names or parties) sign an executive order forbidding all local governments and all businesses from requiring masks?

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions. A lot of interesting what-ifs that appear in conversation about anti-masking.

[dktshb]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Just like in the UK, here are US cases:



Here are US deaths:



With barely over half the nation vaccinated, and a majority of the most vulnerable vaccinated, this is what you get. This is the goddamn Flu at this point. Stop the lies, stop the fear mongering.

Let the Howards hide in their basements.

And hospitals filled to their capacity again. I think that has always been what this is about. Trying to keep the hospitals from being completely overrun with covid so hospitals can cope. We can thank those not vaccinated for our current state.

[dktshb]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Why does it have to be one or the other? We should have both until the delta wave is over (as it is now in India and the UK). Vaccination is more important but mask sfill provide sn incremental reduction in viral transmission since now we know that a not insignificant percentage of vaccinated people can get symptom-free infections and infect others.

I know quite a few vaccinated people who have gotten sick in the last month not wearing masks and tying to get back to normal, and all with symptoms that they described as pretty bad or worse than they expected considering they were vaccinated. Fortunately they have all recovered and who knows how bad it would have been if they weren't vaccinated. I traveled and flew on my first plane and was staying with a house full of people who got sick. I had to get tested but I am fine.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by dktshb

And hospitals filled to their capacity again. I think that has always been what this is about. Trying to keep the hospitals from being completely overrun with covid so hospitals can cope. We can thank those not vaccinated for our current state.

Exactly, but this is really only an issue in areas with very little vaccine compliance.

I think a lot of you folks are not properly giving credit to the difference between today and April 2020. The vaccine is the one and only treatment for COVID, and it's the major game changer that makes normal life available--if you will allow it. Our in house Howard Hughes will not allow it because he's enjoying the smell of his basement carpet too much, but most of society enjoys the wonders of being alive--and being scared and germaphobic is not a normal or healthy way to be.

People are always going to be dying, but it's nearly all unvaccinated people, and it's at a much more manageable scale than in 2020 when 500,000 people died within 8-9 months

[dktshb]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Exactly, but this is really only an issue in areas with very little vaccine compliance.

I think a lot of you folks are not properly giving credit to the difference between today and April 2020. The vaccine is the one and only treatment for COVID, and it's the major game changer that makes normal life available--if you will allow it. Our in house Howard Hughes will not allow it because he's enjoying the smell of his basement carpet too much, but most of society enjoys the wonders of being alive--and being scared and germaphobic is not a normal or healthy way to be.

People are always going to be dying, but it's nearly all unvaccinated people, and it's at a much more manageable scale than in 2020 when 500,000 people died within 8-9 months

I wouldn't mind if the unvaccinated were turned away unless there was a medical reason why they could not get vaccinated.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I had to deal with a major COVID freak-out from my wife last night.

Both of us are of course fully vaxxed, but neither of our kids are. Daughter is turning 12 this month and will get her first shot soon. Son is 7.

Regardless, our county just edged up into the range where the CDC is strongly suggesting indoor mask use even among the vaccinated. Her work required everyone to wear masks all day yesterday.

She's mostly freaking out because we are going on a family vacation in a week and a half to LA. We chose it a few months ago before the spike - mostly because none of us had ever been and we had a huge flight credit from a canceled 2020 international trip to use up. We've now sunk thousands into an Airbnb, Disney tickets, etc. So now she's trapped between her desire to not waste money and her (largely irrational) fears of the kids getting serious COVID cases.

There's no need to freak out or change plans. Just wear masks if it will make her feel better, avail yourselves of the good weather and choose to dine al fresco, and do outdoorsy things. According to today's New York Times COVID hotspot map, this region's average rate of daily COVID infections per 100,000 is pretty low relative to places in the South and Midwest--29 per 100,000 in LA County, and 22 per 100,000 in Orange County. There's really not much to worry about.

Originally Posted by Matthew

Out of curiosity...

Could someone take a restaurant or retailer to court over mask requirements?

A suit like that would be thrown out for lack of standing, because there are no 'damages' that the complainant could demonstrate for which the court could craft a remedy.

Giving medical advice and prescribing a medical device, without a license, as a requirement to enter somewhere is likely a violation of law?

A private establishment's requirement that all potential customers must wear a mask on premises would not constitute illegally furnishing medical advice to any individual potential customer who subsequently showed up.

Originally Posted by Matthew

Also, while many businesses aren't essential, what about those that are?

That term was used by local and state government to classify businesses that were allowed to stay open when others with different classifications were required to close. That classification did not, to my knowledge, strip private establishments from their longstanding right to set and enforce rules for potential customers on premises. You can visit essential businesses--but not if you also simultaneously flout their rules.

Smoking isn't illegal per se, but you can't do it in any supermarket I know of, and if you do, they can legally kick you out for breaking their rule against smoking inside the store--regardless of the nature of the goods they sell, or how much you insist you need those goods. You had the option to obtain those needed goods just like everyone else, as long as you chose to follow the store's rule against smoking, but when you chose to smoke inside the store, you voluntarily forfeited that option. Same with shoes, shirts--and masks.

The law will only usually get involved in private establishments' rules for customers on premises when they involve barring potential customers based on their inclusion in a protected class, such as rules that once barred African Americans from public accommodations.

[10023]

Originally Posted by JManc

Full life ≠ long life and 70ish really isn't that old. It was before we had electricity and running water.

I agree that a full life doesn’t mean a long life. There are people who fit much more living into 60 years than those who live until 90. That’s exactly my point.

And 70ish may or may not be old. For my father it’s pretty old, but he’s been “old” since his early 60s. Others are sailing or running at least half marathons at that age. But most people continue to live well beyond the point, at whatever age it comes, that they cease truly living, because the medical field is focused on prolonging life at any cost.

The indicative measure I’ve taken to telling people is that I don’t want to live much past the point when I can properly ski (on challenging slopes, not the bunny hill). It’s not about skiing per se, but about having the physical capacity to be active, and it’s a real sport (i.e., not golf) that people can do in old age. When the time comes that I’m just not physically capable of that any more, just let me say my goodbyes.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by 10023

I agree that a full life doesn’t mean a long life. There are people who fit much more living into 60 years than those who live until 90. That’s exactly my point.

And 70ish may or may not be old. For my father it’s pretty old, but he’s been “old” since his early 60s. Others are sailing or running at least half marathons at that age. But most people continue to live well beyond the point, at whatever age it comes, that they cease truly living, because the medical field is focused on prolonging life at any cost.

The indicative measure I’ve taken to telling people is that I don’t want to live much past the point when I can properly ski (on challenging slopes, not the bunny hill). It’s not about skiing per se, but about having the physical capacity to be active, and it’s a real sport (i.e., not golf) that people can do in old age. When the time comes that I’m just not physically capable of that any more, just let me say my goodbyes.

You’re full of crap

When you’re 65 I guarantee you’ll be singing a different tune. What are you gonna do, commit suicide? That’s the problem with too many of you money and finance people, you don’t have any insight about life

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

That started when we required seat belts in cars. I hate the seat belt mandate.

At least in a country like mine, with universal health care funded by all taxpayers, it makes sense to impose certain rules of this nature when we can clearly argue that the possible impact of one's silly temerity is a significant financial burden on everyone else.

In a sense, the debate over what to do with today's anti-vaxxers is at least somewhat analogous.

[woodrow]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

You’re full of crap

When you’re 65 I guarantee you’ll be singing a different tune. What are you gonna do, commit suicide? That’s the problem with too many of you money and finance people, you don’t have any insight about life

Sometimes I wish there was a "Like" button on this forum, so I could give a star to you on this. I really think 10023 is just trolling with his age comments. No one can be that lacking in introspection or foresight.

[eschaton]

Not a particularly physically active guy. I mean, I like to ride my bike and go on long walks - and am reasonably fit - but no one would ever call me "sporty." As long as I have my wits, I can read in old age, and learn new things, which is far more important to me.

My general understanding though is that the average elderly person only gains around 4 years of life expectancy as a result of medical interventions. The vast majority of extension in life expectancy over the last century is more because we've prevented premature death due to accidents, infections, and other means. Meaning even centuries ago, it was entirely normal for a guy who reached the age of say 55 to live well into his 70s, even without any worthwhile doctoring.

[10023]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

You’re full of crap

When you’re 65 I guarantee you’ll be singing a different tune. What are you gonna do, commit suicide? That’s the problem with too many of you money and finance people, you don’t have any insight about life

Not at 65. Maybe at 75 though.

Do you want to hobble around with a walker?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by 10023

Not at 65. Maybe at 75 though.

Do you want to hobble around with a walker?

my mom and dad are both turning 75 this fall, and neither one of them hobbles around with a walker.

they're both in reasonably good health for their age, they remain active and engaged with life, and they would both tell you with 100% certainty that their lives are absolutely still worth living, if for no other reason than the joy they get from being with their grandchildren (but there are lots of other reasons as well).

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

my mom and dad are both turning 75 this fall, and neither one of them hobbles around with a walker.

they're both in reasonably good health for their age, they remain active and engaged with life, and they would both tell you with 100% certainty that their lives are absolutely still worth living, if for no other reason than the joy they get from being with their grandchildren (but there are lots of other reasons as well).

Conversely, my grandmother got polio at age 3, walked with a limp from an early age, was using a walker by her 50s...and lived to be 91. She was reasonably healthy up until the last 5 years or so aside from the mobility issues, and didn't have any signs of dementia until the last month.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

my mom and dad are both turning 75 this fall, and neither one of them hobbles around with a walker.

they're both in reasonably good health for their age, they remain active and engaged with life, and they would both tell you with 100% certainty that their lives are absolutely still worth living, if for no other reason than the joy they get from being with their grandchildren (but there are lots of other reasons as well).

My Dad is 85 and my Mom is 77

Both are independent, in good shape, take very little medication, walk without any assistance, and still do regular exercise. They still like to travel. Fingers crossed