PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by tsarstruck

While I agree with the sentiment that worrying about high end CC retail is a bizarre distraction, lamenting Passyunk Avenue is bizarre. I can't think of a single vacancy on Passyunk Avenue that's not the direct result of,um, irrational property owners. And what reasonable need is not met by Passyunk Avenue? Our long regional nightmare of not having a 90s themed music/variety store is now over, after all.

I mean, that's taking what I said a bit out of context. The blighted corner of East Passyunk and Washington Ave. is a mess. That's what I said. I said passyunk is healthy by Philly standards, but is missing just like random basic stuff. Passyunk has become the defacto niche shopping street. South Fellini, the 90s store, the type writer store, dog bakeries, etc. Which is cool and something I appreciate. However, it's missing some more casual offerings in places. Really what Passyunk Square (and South Philly in general) is for the blocks around Broad and Snyder to gentrify and flip.

I'm lamenting the many other streets where there has been little to no progress while the neighborhoods around them have gotten nicer.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by chimpskibot

Huh??? I would say CC has probably the worst commercial offerings out of the city in terms of general momentum and vision. It is so incoherent and truly a hodgepodge of whatever. E.passyunk, Main Street, Germantown Ave (chestnut hill), Frankford Ave, Baltimore Ave, 4th street (QV) are all much better curated and continually have low or no vacancy with stores that are not fast-fashion/cheap foodstuffs/ or chains. I agree with Skyhigh there needs to be a master plan for many parts of center city. Slap shot commercial deals and neighborhood handwringing isn’t gonna change the retail landscape which is arguably the future of CC.

I think to truly be successful the CC business district should purchase the online shopping data of CC residents and target those brands for expansion into the city. Anecdotally, when I moonlighted at a ups, fedex, amazon pickup location a brand a lot of women in the city love is Reformation, but the closest place to see their clothes is a small booth on Nordstrom at KOP mall. If LuluLemon can have two locations in the city, a brand like reformation can have at least one.

Ha ha. Good call. Millennial women LOVE Reformation.

It doesn't get much chatter because it was sorta bypassed by Fishtown, but Northern Liberties is doing very well. The benefits of having a BID seem to be kicking in in a tangible way, so much so that businesses further into the neighborhood are asking to be included (i.e. the BID is expanding). The neighborhood is incredibly high income and my guess is that as construction starts to wrap up around 2nd and Germantown we're going to see a general upgrade in the quality of retail and services. I can almost guarantee you that we'll get a Barrys, Soul Cycle, etc.

I got a notification and FAQ from the Neighborhood BID in my mailbox on the home I own on the 300 block of Brown explaining the BID was expanding at the request of the businesses on 4th Street (Honeys, Cafe La Maude, DelRossis etc) and that I would become the unintended beneficiary of their services as residential properties are not levied with the BID assessment. I believe it's expanding it's boundaries from 3rd to 4th Street, and will run from Spring Garden to Poplar.

Needless to say I'm ecstatic.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by chimpskibot

I think you are grossly misrepresenting what I am saying to prove a point. The facts still remain each commercial corridor I mentioned are extremely healthy by national standards and have many retail offerings for their community.

I mean, to quote you again:

I would say CC has probably the worst commercial offerings out of the city in terms of general momentum and vision. It is so incoherent and truly a hodgepodge of whatever.

I took that as, relatively speaking, Center City has the least amount of momentum and vision. I just can't and don't agree with that given the actual circumstances. I guess you were implying that only the gentrifying neighborhoods in the city mattered. "extremely healthy by national standards" is also something that on the surface I have a tough time believing.

Walnut is not only blighted by empty storefronts, but empty lots and parking lots. The same is true for Chestnut and Market. This doesn't need to be further analyzed. Sure the other corridors have parking lots or gas stations, but they are not the marquee destination for the city and cater to their neighborhoods needs. Again No one with the means to open a shop in Rittenhouse or CC view it like any other highstreet and this is why; it has an image problem. Also we shouldn't miss the forest from the trees, why in the world would you compare what should be the best commercially performing area in the city to some of the poorest neighborhoods? All of the commercial corridors I listed have similar median incomes if not higher than CC. Of course Cecil B moore, Germantown Ave (North Section) and PB/Grays Ferry Ave will be worse performing than CC they are much poorer.

Interesting take. I really don't want to dive into the weeds on this topic beyond: there's a saying 'you are only as strong as your weakest link'. The decay and blight of the worst-off neighborhoods is a bigger contributing factor to "not having luxury stores" and having surface parking lots in Center City than nearly anything else. There's been little effort in stabilizing other corridors that could contribute to lifting up the whole city.

Lastly, 4th street is extremely healthy, Yowie is expanding on to south st with a second location and turnkey boutique hotel/coworking space. Philly Vintage Bazaar opened last year and Moore Vintage formerly of the BOK building just opened a store which specializes in Vintage High end clothes (Nothing under $200). This doesn't sound like an area "holding on". The same can be said for Baltimore Ave and E.Passyunk (where I live as well)

Sure, South Philly east of Broad is still gentrifying. To pretend South Street hasn't seen a slew of problems of recent is being tone deaf though.

This is all to say. CC can and should be doing better and making excuses for why it is failing is in no residents best interest. Especially if we want to expand our tax receipts, livability, national/international appeal and create more jobs.

again cleaning up the worst neighborhoods would go a lot further than praying burberry re-opens. It's all a bit of a chicken and egg scenario, and I think you guys are underestimating how larger socioeconomic issues play into a lot of things and effect every facet of life beyond just varying neighborhood incomes and demographics.

[summersm343]

I'm confused. Now we're saying Philadelphia has a lack of commercial corridors compared to other cities? What? How? The only cities I would say are comparable or surpass Philadelphia in this category in the US are NYC, Chicago, LA, DC, San Francisco and Boston. Please name any other city that is comparable to Philadelphia in this regard? Keep in mind, Philadelphia was declining for 50+ years, has only been rebounding solidly for about 20 years, and is still a city with numerous poorer, high crime, blighted areas... in a state that hates cities and in a country that really doesn't treat it's cities too well on average. Also, please tell what commercial corridor in what city DOESN'T have vacancies right now. Most places do thanks to COVID unfortunately.

With that said, I don't think Philadelpha is getting enough credit for it's commercial corridors.

[summersm343]

Center City neighborhoods

For Center City, almsost every neighborhood has solid commercial corridors:

Rittenhouse Square
-almost all the numbered streets from 15th to 21st
-Chestnut Street
-Walnut Street
-Sansom Street
-Locust Street
-Spruce Street

Old City
-2nd Street
-3rd Street
-5th Street (somewhat)
-Chestnut Street
-Market Street
-Arch Street
-Race Street (somewhat)

Logan Square & The Museum District
-Benkamin Franklin Parkway
-Arch Street
-Hamilton Street (somewhat)
-Callowhill Street (up-and-coming)

Midtown Village
-13th Street
-12th Street
-11th Street (somewhat)
-Walnut Street
-Chestnut Street
-Locust Street

Avenue of the Arts
-South Broad from City Hall/South Penn Square to at least Spruce Street

Society Hill
-2nd Street/Headhouse Square
-somewhat along Walnut Street

Washington Square West
-Walnut Street
-Sansom Street/Jewler's Row
-Pine Street/Antique Row
-8th Street
-10th Street

Center City West/Market West/Penn Center
-Market Street
-JFK Blvd
-16th Street (somewhat)
-17th Street
-18th Street
-19th Street

Center City East/Market East
-Market Street (at least from 11th to 13th)
-12th Street

Chinatown
-10th Street
-Arch Street (spotty)
-Race Street
-Cherry Street (somewhat)
-11th Street (somewhat)
-9th Street (somewhat)

I would say the only neighborhoods/areas of Center City right now that DON'T have solid commercial corridors are:

-Fitler Square, but if the Rite Aide at 23rd and Walnut and the Sunoco gas station at 22nd and Walnut get devevloped, Fitler Square could have solid commercial corridors along 22nd and Walnut Streets

-Callowhill (Up-and-coming commercial corridors along Spring Garden Street and the potential for up-and-coming commercial corridors on Broad Street)

-Callow East/SoNo (mostly parking lots, warehouses and industrial at the moment though. If large scale mixed-used buildings keep getting proposed though, a solid commercial corridor could be a reality for the future.

-Penn's Landing (should the I-95 cap park and Durst development all happen though, there should be a solid string of commercial from roughly Market Street to roughly Lombard Circle)

[TempleGuy1000]

^exactly. I don't understand the pessimism around Center City at all. There's tons of great things happening and more to come

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by tsarstruck

While I agree with the sentiment that worrying about high end CC retail is a bizarre distraction, lamenting Passyunk Avenue is bizarre. I can't think of a single vacancy on Passyunk Avenue that's not the direct result of,um, irrational property owners. And what reasonable need is not met by Passyunk Avenue? Our long regional nightmare of not having a 90s themed music/variety store is now over, after all.

I won't get messy in this debate again, but it's not bizarre to worry about the meh retail in Center City (not talking about other neighborhoods)...

Again, a theme with some, just because YOU do not like/care/understand something doesn't mean it's inconsequential to a healthy downtown.

*** As a disclaimer... Center City is still awesome, but it would be cool if Market East acted as a better and more cohesive mid-level retail hub (Best Buy, Crate & Barrel, Home Goods, Zara, Williams Sonoma, Lego World, etc.) and Walnut/Chestnut as more cohesive mid to high-end streets.

[Frontst17]

There is a simple solution to this. It’s advertising. Walnut street isn’t marketed. Growing up in the burbs once I found out what the R5 was and stumbled upon walnut street, kop became a distant memory and I would gather 8-10 of us to go on train rides to shop eat and go home. As a teenager it opened my eyes to so much of this city. That age group these days go exclusively off of what is shown to them and marketed to them. A social media presence even just simple ads on Instagram etc. I see ads for malls in NY LA hell even Cleveland sometimes. We have untapped generations still in the suburbs who live minutes from a train station. What they see and hear (or are told by parents) isn’t getting them into the city for any reason. Thank god enough of gen z/millennials are moving into the city but I still thank a lot of them are coming from outside the region. Philly needs to become and stay attractive to those who already live here. That being said personally it’s going to happen organically but give it a little push

[summersm343]

Commercial Corridors OUTSIDE of Center City

University City
-Walnut Street (at least from 34th to 38th)
-36th Street
-40th Street (shared with Spruce Hill)
-Sansom Street (at least the 3400 block)
-Market Street (somewhat)
-Chestnut Street (spotty)
-33rd Street/Civic Center Blvd (somewhat)
-Spruce Street (somewhat)
-39th Street (somewhat)
-And this obviously doesn't include future potential from Schuylkill Yards or uCity Saure

Queen Village
-South Street (even if there's ups and downs a vacancies, and it's trying to find it's new identity... it's still a vibrant commercial corridor)
-4th Street
-Bainbridge Street (especially if that large parking lot gets filled in)
-2nd Street (one block)
-3rd Street (one block)
-5th Street/Passyunk Ave intersection somewhat... especially if the large lot on Bainbridge, the J Brite Cleaners plot and the Rite Aide get developed

Bella Vista
-9th Street Italian Market
-Spotty commercial along South Street (9th through 11th is pretty solid though)
-6th Street for a block or so
-7th Street for a block or so
-8th Street (spotty)
-Christian Street (spotty)
-Washington Ave (spotty)

Passyunk Square & East Passyunk
-Passyunk Ave
-9th Street (southern half of the Italian Market)
-Washington Ave (spotty)
-Broad Street (spotty)

Fishtown
-Frankford Ave
-Girard Ave
-Canal Street complex
-Front Street (up-and-coming)

Northern Liberties
-2nd Street
-Liberties Walk (somewhat)
-Girard Ave (up-and-coming)
-Maybe Spring Garden Street in the future?

Fairmount
-Fairmount Ave from 20th to 22nd at least. Spotty commercial from 19th to 20th and from 22nd to 25th

Spring Garden
-Spring Garden Street from Broad to 16th. Spotty commercial then until 19th
-Very up-and-coming along North Broad from Spring Garden Street to Fairmount Ave
-Spotty but up-and-coming along Fairmount Ave from Broad to 19th

Graduate Hospital
-South Street from 15th to 19th
-South Street from 21st to 23rd and then Grays Ferry Ave from South Street to Bainbridge Street
-Up-and-coming and spotty commercial along Washington Ave
-Up-and-coming and spotty commercial along Broad Street

Newbold
-Passyunk Ave from Broad to 17th
-Spotty commercial along Broad Street

Manayunk
-Main Street

Chestnut Hill
-Germantown Ave

Mount Airy
-Germantown Ave (at least from about Mount Pleasant Ave to Allens Lane, spotty commercial from Gorgas Lane to Upsal Street)

Spruce Hill
-40th Street (shared with UCity)
-about a block or two long commercial corridor centered around 45th and Walnut
-about a block long commercial corridor along Baltimore Ave from 45th to 46th
-Potentially up-and-coming commercial corridor along Chestnut Street with all of this development

Cedar Park
-Solid commercial corridor along Baltimore Ave from 46th Street/Farragut Terrace to 51st Street

Port Richmond
-Allegheny Ave
-Richmond Street (spotty)

Roxborough
-Ridge Ave

Cecil B. Moore/Templetown
-Broad Street from Oxford Ave to about Polett Walk
-Cecil B. Moore Ave from Broad Street to 16th Street at the least

LoMo (Lower Moyamensing)
-Broad Street
-Oregon Ave (spotty)

Mayfair & Holmesburg
-Frankford Ave
-Cottman Ave (one block)


Up-and-coming commercial corridors

Brewerytown
-Girard Ave

Powelton Village
-Lancaster Ave from 34th Street to 38th Street

West Powelton
-Lancaster Ave (especially from Hamilton Street to Haverford/40th

Squirrel Hill
-Woodland Ave from 45th/46th to the train tracks

Olde Kensigton
-N. American Street
-Girard Ave (shared with NoLibs)
-Front Street (shared with Fishtown)

East Kensington
-Frankford Ave
-Front Street (shared with Norris Square)

Norris Square
-Front Street (shared with East Kensington)

Francisville
-Ridge Ave
-North Broad

Spring Arts
-Spring Garden Street (shared with Callowhill)
-North Broad Street (shared with Spring Garden)

Garden Court
-Spruce Street from 47th to 50th?
-48th Street from Spruce to Pine?

Point Breeze
-Point Breeze Ave
-Washington Ave

Hawthorne
-South Street
-South Broad
-Washington Ave

East Falls
-Up-and-coming commercial corridors along Midvale Ave and Ridge Ave with a ton of development ongoing

Germantown
-Germantown Ave
-Chelten Ave
-Maplewood Mall

Centro de Oro?
-5th Street? Clean the neighborhood up a little more, continue the Hispanic immigration, and clean up crime? This could be a solid, eclectic Hispanic neighborhood

The Waterfront
-Are we considering this a seperate neighborhood, or a part of NoLibs and Fishtown? If seperate, there's no way the Waterfront won't have solid commercial within 5-10 years with all of the development going on

Other future potentials?
-The Navy Yard
-The Stadium District
-Wynnefield (City Ave)
-Olde Richmond (Aramingo)
-Girard Estates
-Pennsport
-Parkside
-Strawberry Mansion
-Ludlow/Poplar?

[jaysb]

I think this may have been posted before...on Broad and Locust...how is this acceptable??

Matching ones across the street

[summersm343]

Sooo, by my count, that's 30-32 neighborhoods in Philadelphia with solid commercial corridors. I typically don't consider something a commercial corridor either unless it's AT LEAST 2 blocks in length, urban format, and on both sides of the streets.

Then, I would say there's at least 16 more neighborhoods with up-and-coming commercial corridors that are already there.

Please show me another city in the US with 30-32 neighborhoods with solid commercial corridors and 16 up-and-coming commercial corridors? I bet you even Boston, San Francisco and DC don't have that many neighborhoods, so we're probably talking about NYC, Chicago and LA as the only cities with more neighborhoods.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by jaysb

I think this may have been posted before...on Broad and Locust...how is this acceptable??

Matching ones across the street

They are raising the crosswalk like they did on Broad & Chestnut. It’s temporary

[nemesisinphilly]

Just saw that there is a liquor license transfer for the address of the CC Applebee's. Not a lot of info except the name is "Philly Vinyl"

Anyone know what's happening in this prime spot?

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly

Just saw that there is a liquor license transfer for the address of the CC Applebee's. Not a lot of info except the name is "Philly Vinyl"

Anyone know what's happening in this prime spot?

Wow. I honestly thought I’d witness Armageddon before seeing that space finally filled.

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

They are raising the crosswalk like they did on Broad & Chestnut. It’s temporary

haha, ok thanks goodness.

[FlyersFan]

Originally Posted by jaysb

I think this may have been posted before...on Broad and Locust...how is this acceptable??

Matching ones across the street

That is a special type of ada ramp (Penndot type 3), pretty much only installed as a last resort when you can’t meet ada ramp slope requirements within the sidewalk. Looks like they have plenty of room to fit a normal ramp so not sure why they went with that kind. Obviously they aren’t ideal since they jut into the street and I have never seen one that wasn’t ugly.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Wow. I honestly thought I’d witness Armageddon before seeing that space finally filled.

Just out of curiosity, why?

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by FlyersFan

Looks like they have plenty of room to fit a normal ramp so not sure why they went with that kind. Obviously they aren’t ideal since they jut into the street and I have never seen one that wasn’t ugly.

Tony answered this above. They are raising the street to meet the curb.

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Just out of curiosity, why?

Very strange comment

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Mayormccheese

Very strange comment

I call that section of 15th Street, chain restaurant row. I'm a bit surprised it wasn't filled sooner.