PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Aaamazarite]

More future stuff incoming:

4312 Market: 6 stories, 40 units

1613 Germantown Ave: 4 stories, 40 units

5420 Ridge Ave: 34 units

4900 Spruce: 5 stories, 151 units

1408 N 3rd: 3 stories, 78 units

525 N 41st: 30 units

4112 Lancaster Ave: 4 stories, 37 units

1102 Germantown Ave: 9 buildings, 4-5 stories, 64 units total

125 S 46th: 3 stories, 12 units

[Frontst17]

Originally Posted by Londonee

This times a billion.

A lot of Philadelphians (including several posters) seem to have this sense that until we have perfect schools, zero crime, and zero poverty we can't fix small things ("aesthetic") that go a long way to making the city a better place for its middle class.

If the city were a house, these posters would demand the thickest walls, double-paned windows, the sturdiest roof, the most rigged foundation as that's all that technically really matters to protect you from the elements... but on the inside of the house the faucet leaks, the shower doesn't work, the floor boards are decaying, the electrical is spotty, and the paint is peeling. Who the hell wants to live there? The idea is...let's have the house stay up right - we'll patch it from time to time, repair it as needed...but, in the meantime, let's fix the fucking sink.

I think we want all of that done, you’re asking for new wallpaper

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

I think we want all of that done, you’re asking for new wallpaper

If there was a budget for burying the utilities, it just went to the Federal mandate for ADA curb cuts. To be honest, I would be pretty happy if they re-striped the numbered streets in Center City so we don't have people from NJ driving down the middle of 17th street during rush hour.

2009:


2017:

[McBane]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

One key to reducing the poverty rate is to make sure people who don't live in poverty don't leave the city. One way to do that is to show them their tax dollars at work.

If you are a middle class family making $80K a year and you look around your neighborhood with dirty streets and no municipal services, why stay?

You could start street cleaning in a moderate way with very little money.

You can begin burying power lines modestly but set goals to have certain neighborhoods complete in 5/10/15/20 years.

You could require developers who are developing entire blocks (common in NoLibs, Kensington, Port Richmond, Brewerytown, etc) to bury the power lines adjacent to their projects as one way of starting.

Imagine if Bart Blatstein were required to bury the power lines surrounding his Piazza project 10 years ago when it commenced? Half of Northern Liberties would already be underground.

When the city is digging up a street to do a full replacement of water or gas lines, it could be law to due the damn thing and put everything on the street underground (power, cable, etc).

Hey, I agree with you -especially in regards to requiring developers to bury power lines for major projects. My post was a reply to another post insinuating that very few people support burying utility lines, whereas it's really about juggling spending priorities and that everyone has differing opinions on the subject.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by PHL10

If there was a budget for burying the utilities, it just went to the Federal mandate for ADA curb cuts. To be honest, I would be pretty happy if they re-striped the numbered streets in Center City so we don't have people from NJ driving down the middle of 17th street during rush hour.

I've often joked that the Streets Department buys their paint from a party trick store right next to the inextinguishable cake candles. It's disappearing paint. Within a few years of applications it's almost fully disintegrated. Seriously, though, I don't know if we buy the cheapest road paint or if other cities just stripe their grids way more often than we do b/c it's definitely noticeable here relative to other cities.

[Busy Bee]

^It must not be the high-build plastisol type paint, but more just a regular oil base paint. No wonder it only lasts a few years.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

I think we want all of that done, you’re asking for new wallpaper

Agree. I am a middle class resident with a family. I definitely don't think it is a bad idea to do things that encourage middle class families to stay. However if the city unveiled it's outreach to middle class families and burying power lines was a prominent part of that plan I'd be really perplexed.

I've lived on my block now for 5 years. I know we're served by overhead lines. But I honestly had trouble remembering if the lines run down my street or back alley. I peeked out my window to check.

Power lines are simply not important to me or my life. They don't bother me. Period.

I honestly don't think we're all that far apart in reality though, I just think that two of the things that have been mentioned here recently are really big pet peeves for certain people. If the trash on the highway bothers you, or messy power lines bother you, philly gives you ample opportunity to get annoyed and have the issue just build up in your head. Meanwhile it is also clear there are a lot of people like me for whom these two specific things don't really bother us.

At the same time, I assume some of the things that really get on my nerves don't bother others as much. Road striping as others have mentioned DOES bother me. But, my greatest pet peeve is when utilities dig up pristine freshly laid asphalt for what appears to be routine maintenence. It just makes me feel like nothing can stay nice in this city, that we're too incompetent to communicate and get everyone on the same page so that things like that don't happen. It really depresses me and truly drives me nuts, but I can see how others don't care.

I think we might disagree on which little things the city should be doing, but I think we all mostly agree that the city should be doing the little things it can while it tries to tackle the larger issues.

[McBane]

Not to beat a dead horse but I was checking out some of the photo threads yesterday and it instantly occurred to me what those power lines remind me of: a dying rust belt city. Obviously, Philly is not that but seeing residential streets with those ugly power lines just gives off that kind of vibe to me.

Happy Thanksgiving all!!!

[eixample]

I dont want to sound like an ass, but complaining about utility lines sounds like a "I drive through the neighborhoods outside center city occasionally" or "I only know the city through Google Street view" complaint rather than something a resident might complain about. I live in South Philly and you get used to it. Things at street level like sidewalks that are obstructed or in disrepair, people not shoveling their sidewalks after a snow storm and of course the trash on the sidewalks and streets are much more annoying. I would rather the power lines were buried but it is way low on my priority list. In fact, requiring outside gas shut offs and electric meters are far more annoying to me. That said I do agree with requiring all new developments with more than a handful of units burying their utility lines. Some developers already do this.

[Jawnadelphia]

[PHL10]

Nice development - adds great density without destroying the 19th Century scale of the street (or destroy the 19th century buildings for that matter).

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by PHL10

Nice development - adds great density without destroying the 19th Century scale of the street (or destroy the 19th century buildings for that matter).

Earlier plans would have removed at least one adjacent building, but the owner (building with Nail Salon) wouldn't sell. I do wish Ye Olde Cleanery would get their clock fixed — it's been 5:10 for 3 or 4 years now.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

Earlier plans would have removed at least one adjacent building, but the owner (building with Nail Salon) wouldn't sell. I do wish Ye Olde Cleanery would get their clock fixed — it's been 5:10 for 3 or 4 years now.

Eww...gross on the stucco and crappy patch job and mismatch paint. Time to invest on the exterior with a new shiny building next door.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Eww...gross on the stucco and crappy patch job and mismatch paint. Time to invest on the exterior with a new shiny building next door.

A big section of cornice at the corner was falling off a few years ago and there were L&I barricades in place.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Agree. I am a middle class resident with a family. I definitely don't think it is a bad idea to do things that encourage middle class families to stay. However if the city unveiled it's outreach to middle class families and burying power lines was a prominent part of that plan I'd be really perplexed.

I've lived on my block now for 5 years. I know we're served by overhead lines. But I honestly had trouble remembering if the lines run down my street or back alley. I peeked out my window to check.

Part of this, is desensitization. It's like that 5 out of 10 co-worker who over the years starts creeping up the rankings and suddenly becomes like a 7 out of 10 - even though you know deep down they are always just a 5? OK, i'm done with the metaphors. Truthfully though, if you lived in a city like London without overhead wires and were taken to Grad Hosp or Passyunk Square and told this is a "hot" neighborhood, you're initial overall impression is Philly is pretty rundown. The wires are also a little subconscious - you don't necessarily think about them, but you do feel them. No joke, one of the big ancillary reasons I moved north from GHo to Fitler Square is no longer having to look at the overhead wire mess. I'd argue that property values increase in buried wire-districts as well - so there's a fiscal benefit to the city's coffers over the long run.

I did something of an experiment a few years ago where I photoshopped a few intersections in the city and removed the overhead wires and then asked people their impressions of each image. One, i remember, was of the Italian Market at Christian St and by simply removing the overhead wire mess, it took the image from what looked like a downtrodden third world street and transformed it into a quaint-feeling marketplace. Pretty stark.

Also, as stated, it's not just "power lines: - power lines make up a small % of the visual overhead bundle - it's mostly fibre lines...which pisses me off. Especially if you watch a Comcast or FIos installer just have blatant disregard for their handywork - just so long as that house is somehow attached to the network. Wires are so sloppily and haphazardly and needlessly strung about on the poles, it's a joke. Frankly, I think people should be a bit more pissed off about this issue in particular. Even just some simple oversight in this area would go a long way to cleaning up the mess.

[iheartphilly]

^
Nice clarity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_pole

From the utility pole, the electrical transmission wire is stringed from pole to pole. From each pole, an indivudual wire is stringed to the home, apartment. Something bigger like a low rise, mid rise or high rise, because of cumulative greater load is gonna have a different set up than an individual single family row home. I think this is the reason why new construction low-mid-high rise buildings don't have utility poles wires running to the building. Older buildings, I'm know sure what they do if it is not buried.

Of course, there are other wires on the pole usually on a different elevation of the pole for copper phone wires, cable fiber optics, and other wires.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I did something of an experiment a few years ago where I photoshopped a few intersections in the city and removed the overhead wires and then asked people their impressions of each image. One, i remember, was of the Italian Market at Christian St and by simply removing the overhead wire mess, it took the image from what looked like a downtrodden third world street and transformed it into a quaint-feeling marketplace. Pretty stark.

Cool experiment....do you still have these images that you could post here?

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Part of this, is desensitization. It's like that 5 out of 10 co-worker who over the years starts creeping up the rankings and suddenly becomes like a 7 out of 10 - even though you know deep down they are always just a 5? OK, i'm done with the metaphors. Truthfully though, if you lived in a city like London without overhead wires and were taken to Grad Hosp or Passyunk Square and told this is a "hot" neighborhood, you're initial overall impression is Philly is pretty rundown. The wires are also a little subconscious - you don't necessarily think about them, but you do feel them. No joke, one of the big ancillary reasons I moved north from GHo to Fitler Square is no longer having to look at the overhead wire mess. I'd argue that property values increase in buried wire-districts as well - so there's a fiscal benefit to the city's coffers over the long run.

I did something of an experiment a few years ago where I photoshopped a few intersections in the city and removed the overhead wires and then asked people their impressions of each image. One, i remember, was of the Italian Market at Christian St and by simply removing the overhead wire mess, it took the image from what looked like a downtrodden third world street and transformed it into a quaint-feeling marketplace. Pretty stark.

Also, as stated, it's not just "power lines: - power lines make up a small % of the visual overhead bundle - it's mostly fibre lines...which pisses me off. Especially if you watch a Comcast or FIos installer just have blatant disregard for their handywork - just so long as that house is somehow attached to the network. Wires are so sloppily and haphazardly and needlessly strung about on the poles, it's a joke. Frankly, I think people should be a bit more pissed off about this issue in particular. Even just some simple oversight in this area would go a long way to cleaning up the mess.

No offense, but I don't feel them and I don't care. When I go to a city I don't take notice of the presence or absence of the power lines. You can argue I'm desensitized to them, considering I'll assume almost every neighborhood I've ever lived in has likely had overhead lines. But that doesn't make me care any more. And it doesn't move it up my list of priorities any further.

There is nothing I love more than the city getting great bang for its buck. So I'll agree that when a road is already torn up, or if there is a major development, the city should use these opportunities to bury lines. It's more reliable and clearly it will improve things for SOME people.

Over the course of recent debates here I've come to relent that just because something is not remotely important to my life, doesn't mean it is not important. People care about different things. The power lines are clearly important to you. But you should understand that they don't bother everyone as they bother you. And if someone doesn't care about the things you care about, you shouldn't assume that deep down they do care on a subconscious level and just don't realize it. Just accept people care about different things.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Part of this, is desensitization. It's like that 5 out of 10 co-worker who over the years starts creeping up the rankings and suddenly becomes like a 7 out of 10 - even though you know deep down they are always just a 5? OK, i'm done with the metaphors. Truthfully though, if you lived in a city like London without overhead wires and were taken to Grad Hosp or Passyunk Square and told this is a "hot" neighborhood, you're initial overall impression is Philly is pretty rundown. The wires are also a little subconscious - you don't necessarily think about them, but you do feel them. No joke, one of the big ancillary reasons I moved north from GHo to Fitler Square is no longer having to look at the overhead wire mess. I'd argue that property values increase in buried wire-districts as well - so there's a fiscal benefit to the city's coffers over the long run.

I did something of an experiment a few years ago where I photoshopped a few intersections in the city and removed the overhead wires and then asked people their impressions of each image. One, i remember, was of the Italian Market at Christian St and by simply removing the overhead wire mess, it took the image from what looked like a downtrodden third world street and transformed it into a quaint-feeling marketplace. Pretty stark.

Also, as stated, it's not just "power lines: - power lines make up a small % of the visual overhead bundle - it's mostly fibre lines...which pisses me off. Especially if you watch a Comcast or FIos installer just have blatant disregard for their handywork - just so long as that house is somehow attached to the network. Wires are so sloppily and haphazardly and needlessly strung about on the poles, it's a joke. Frankly, I think people should be a bit more pissed off about this issue in particular. Even just some simple oversight in this area would go a long way to cleaning up the mess.

All of this.

Of course I don't think it's on the top of peoples mind. And I also accept that it's not a priority for many. But I think the absence of them has a greater effect on our subconscious than people realize.

In the same way a well designed building has a subconscious effect compared to a poorly designed building. The difference between something that is high quality and low quality (anything, could be a car, a house, a handbag, a pair of shoes) are so subtle that people sometimes don't even perceive the differences, yet, there is something about the two products that "feel" different.

This is that sort of issue for me. And I happen to think it's more important than many acknowledge. Not because I think it's a priority. I don't. But because it's this sort of attention to detail overtime that really elevates a place. In the same way Guiliani paid attention to QOL issues in NYC compared to Dinkins and Bloomberg even moreso compared to Guiliani. Some of what they addressed I'm sure seems absurd in retrospect, and many in NYC at the time I assure you thought they weren't "priority", but it's the cumulative effect of all of those little things together that create the perception that a place has momentum.

What bothers me about Philadelphia more than anything else is that so many people are unbothered by it.

I can tell you. There are a lot of people in the world who notice those things and they by and large do not even give Philadelphia a chance. That could be our loss. Catering to a larger audience doesn't necessitate that we will lose our edge or become Colonial Williamsburg or Fanieul Hall...we can do those things and still maintain what makes us special.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by allovertown

No offense, but I don't feel them and I don't care. When I go to a city I don't take notice of the presence or absence of the power lines. You can argue I'm desensitized to them, considering I'll assume almost every neighborhood I've ever lived in has likely had overhead lines. But that doesn't make me care any more. And it doesn't move it up my list of priorities any further.

I have no reason not to believe you. And I do.

But are you honestly saying that if you were comparing two houses to move into in a "hot neighborhood" and they were identical homes, let's say, with the same orientation, light, same general view, same school catchment, etc, and the only difference between the homes would be that in one, from your master bedroom window on the third floor you saw a gaggle of wires hanging from a power line literally feet from your house, and in another, from the same exact room you had an unobstructed view with no wires...you would pick between them at random? Or pick the house with wires in front of it without even thinking about it?