What old money neighborhoods stayed intact? - Page 4

Docere · #61 Posted **May 5, 2023, 4:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, I think Jews vacated Cleveland's city proper earlier than any other major U.S. city. By 1960 they were gone. Detroit had a sizable Jewish community in city proper until about 1970, and the largest synagogue in Metro Detroit remained until about 1980 (though by that point, the membership was overwhelmingly suburban).

Much of this is just a function of differing city sizes, however. Cleveland has smaller limits, and, if anything, Cleveland Jews stayed closer to the core (Cleveland Heights). The post-1960 Detroit Jewish population was in an area (Livernois-7 Mile) generally more suburban than Cleveland Heights. The last truly urban Detroit Jewish neighborhood was Dexter Davison, which except for some grannies was vacated by around 1960.

True, and there's still a Jewish presence in the Heights today so you have more of an "urban Jewish" presence in Cleveland than in Detroit where the Jewish community is pretty much 100% suburban sprawl.

eschaton · #62 Posted **May 5, 2023, 4:17 PM**

I think it's worth noting that broadly speaking, southern cities are less segregated than cities in much of the north.

My understanding is in the antebellum era there was essentially zero residential segregation - free blacks lived everywhere. Which makes sense, since black people needed to be omnipresent for servile positions anyway. Over the late 19th/early 20th century southern cities slowly evolved into a patchwork of small white/black neighborhoods, but the development of entire black "sides" of cities didn't happen until the postwar era, when the automobile made long-distance commuting easier.

Fast forwarding to today, there are generally speaking always more black people in predominantly white suburbia in the South than you'd find in the Midwest or the Northeast, even adjusting for blacker metros overall. Some of this may come down to "school quality" not being as big of a political issue. School districts in the South are usually county-wide, and thus it's hard to avoid integrated school systems. Not only that, but a much higher proportion of the white population sends their children to private schools (often parochial schools) meaning the question of if an area is only rated B- on Greatschools never even occurs to them.

eschaton · #63 Posted **May 5, 2023, 4:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

True, and there's still a Jewish presence in the Heights today so you have more of an "urban Jewish" presence in Cleveland than in Detroit where the Jewish community is pretty much 100% suburban sprawl.

I believe the Jewish population in Cleveland Heights has been directly boosted by active recruitment from NYC ultra-orthodox communities.

L41A · #64 Posted **May 5, 2023, 4:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by goat314

I disagree, New Orleans and it's people are treated like a zoo by tourists and the state of Louisiana. Probably one of the most depressing cities in America in my opinion, abject poverty, apparent racial caste system, dangerously neglected infrastructure, extremely filthy city. The culture and historic charm is fascinating, but probably the closest thing American mainland has to an exploited Caribbean island.

I absolutely LOVE New Orleans. It is the most authentic of the major US cities which draws a lot of tourists. It is so culturally rich and the breadwinner and originator of so much cultural that has been refried and watered down for American masses - music, food, literature, etc. (the South in general). America is so much greater with a city like New Orleans with it cultural contributions. Plus, it ain't no party like a New Orleans party.

But to me, it is depressing on a day-to-day basis. It was a polar opposite of visits versus living there.

Crawford · #65 Posted **May 5, 2023, 4:23 PM**

The small Detroit Orthodox community tries to boost its numbers via NY-area recruitment too. I think they even pay to fly people in, and do some matchmaking? They might even help with homebuying. I think there's a whole economy around this.

The Orthodox enclave in Metro Detroit is at 10 Mile & Greenfield in inner suburban Oak Park, and is probably the only part of the community that's growing. It's an unremarkable postwar area.

Docere · #66 Posted **May 5, 2023, 4:28 PM**

[deleted]

iheartthed · #67 Posted **May 5, 2023, 4:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschaton

Fast forwarding to today, there are generally speaking always more black people in predominantly white suburbia in the South than you'd find in the Midwest or the Northeast, even adjusting for blacker metros overall. Some of this may come down to "school quality" not being as big of a political issue. School districts in the South are usually county-wide, and thus it's hard to avoid integrated school systems. Not only that, but a much higher proportion of the white population sends their children to private schools (often parochial schools) meaning the question of if an area is only rated B- on Greatschools never even occurs to them.

Southern suburbs are newer than northern suburbs, so that would be a factor. Even in the north, newer suburbs tend to be more integrated than older suburbs.

I also agree with the theory that school integration was much more of a wedge issue in the north than the south because so many southern school districts were managed at the county level. In the north white families avoided forced integration by moving to suburbs with their own school districts. This strategy wasn't as viable in the south.

jmecklenborg · #68 Posted **May 5, 2023, 5:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Aside from Oil, there is essentially no industry to speak of in the whole of Louisiana...and even that is mostly extraction.

Wigs · #69 Posted **May 5, 2023, 8:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Mississippi. Louisiana is generally more progressive than the others, but it is definitely stagnant. There is a southern Rust Belt that covers New Orleans, Memphis, Jackson, MS, Birmingham, AL.

I was going to say Mississippi. Jackson has been left for dead by the decades long GOP leadership in that State.

Emprise du Lion · #70 Posted **May 6, 2023, 2:24 PM**

For St. Louis, I'd probably start with Compton Heights. It's a wealthy subdivision full of mansions that were plopped down and interrupted the city's street grid some 100 to 150 years ago. The deed restrictions also meant that those homes could not be subdivided as time went on.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Co...%2Fm%2F0413cpy

If you want a truly functional neighborhood, then I would say the Central West End. The neighborhood as a whole isn't exclusively a wealth enclave, as there's plenty of apartment buildings full of people of more modest means, students, etc, but it is home to an ungodly number of private streets. These are remnants from Gilded Age St. Louis when the wealthy wanted to separate themselves from everyone else, and they still do to this day. These streets most recently made the news with the whole McCloskey incident a few years back, as their home is on one such private street.
https://archive.curbed.com/2020/6/29...protest-street

Steely Dan · #71 Posted **May 6, 2023, 6:01 PM**

^ Those private streets were just as much of a bad idea then as they are now.

It's frustrating that St. Louis seemingly has to deal with their legacy forever.

TempleGuy1000 · #72 Posted **May 6, 2023, 7:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by summersm343

Yes and no. You’re absolutely right that Society Hill declined and was redeveloped and gentrified in the 50s/60s, however, it was established as a wealthy elite neighborhood. Many wealthy, gentry, nobles, politicians and founding fathers lived here or had second homes here in what was the second most important city in the British empire after London at the time. Today, it is also a neighborhood for the wealthy elite, and is even wealthier on average than Rittenhouse Square. Therefore, I would say it qualifies.

Society Hill was not considered a nice place to live in the post war era. Wikipedia goes as far as to say:

Quote:

In the 19th century, the city expanded westward and the area lost its appeal. Houses deteriorated, and by the 1940s, Society Hill had become a slum neighborhood, one of the worst in the city.[23]

In the 1950s, the city, state and federal governments began one of the first urban renewal programs aimed at the preservation of historic buildings. While most commercial 19th-century buildings were demolished, historically-significant houses were restored by occupants or taken over by the Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority and sold to individuals who agreed to restore the exteriors. Replicas of 18th-century street lights and brick sidewalks were added to enhance the colonial atmosphere. Empty lots and demolished buildings were replaced with parks, walkways, and modern townhouses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_Hill

It saw substantial decline which is why the character of the neighborhood was able to change. The neighborhood has a fantastic collection of mid-century modern homes but I would not consider it old money in the same way Rittenhouse has always been since it's inception in the later half of the 19th century.

Society Hill you will see much more variety in the age of the buildings even though the oldest buildings are older: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9439...7i16384!8i8192

Rittenhouse Square is more uniform: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9470...7i16384!8i8192

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

TBH I never really understood the wealth around Fort Washington and Blue Bell. Is it really that old or is it comprised mostly of upper middle class Jewish folks who fled North Philadelphia up 611 and 309?

He named a lot of places I wouldn't necessarily consider old money. The larger towns generally do have old money neighborhoods or sections, but some are a stretch to consider old money

Wigs · #73 Posted **May 6, 2023, 8:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ Those private streets were just as much of a bad idea then as they are now.

It's frustrating that St. Louis seemingly has to deal with their legacy forever.

Buffalo has some oddities, off the top of my head:

St. Catherines Court (recent sales according to Zillow were $850k and $1.18M)
https://goo.gl/maps/gSqzcsr4Lv5QsrDQA

Penhurst Park (sales between $650k-$950k with some est value over $1M)
https://goo.gl/maps/MoBxJT4ZgkWpE6gL8

Mayfair Lane c.1928 which was quite modern for the time: a surface level parking garage with an English courtyard and townhouses above that ends in the largest drawbridge townhouse, designed by celebrated local architect EB Green & Son. I think the son lived in the drawbridge unit.
Sales typically range from $300k for the smallest unit (~1600 sq ft) to ~$525k, with the drawbridge unit the largest and having a Zestimate of over $800k.
https://goo.gl/maps/AJjnHUPzEqgtEvke8

• Video Link
Zillow showing recently sold units https://shorturl.at/fmCJM

I'm sure benp can think of others since he's the forumer with more in-depth Buffalo knowledge than myself.

Quixote · #74 Posted **May 6, 2023, 9:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by badrunner

Hancock Park, while it is within city limits, is more the result of an earlier wave of wealth flight/suburbanization to what was considered the outskirts back then. I think it's interesting to imagine what the city would be like today if true in-city, old money neighborhoods like Bunker Hill or Angelino Heights had stayed intact. But LA's wealth flight/suburbanization started in earnest a generation before the rest of the country, basically as soon as cars became widely available, and it wasn't driven by white flight or racial issues. There were more "pull" factors than "push" factors at play.

I can see what you’re saying.

I‘d point out though that the denser, bungalow-style area north of Beverly between Wilton and Larchmont didn’t go downhill when areas of Koreatown east of Western that originally had a similar typology started to densify with apartment complexes for working class households.

A good chunk of the area south of Wilshire between Crenshaw, Pico, and La Brea also remained relatively nice, although they probably weren’t as desirable in the 80s and 90s as they are today. Then you have Lafayette Square, which is even closer to neighborhoods of color that didn’t become slightly more rough around the edges like Victoria Park to the north (you would think it’d be the opposite).

The point is that there was a time not too long ago that everything east of La Brea was seen as the “east side.” The area between Western and La Brea, while considered peripheral and suburban at one point, were built in the pre-war era and remained majority white when LA began to diversify and expand father west in the latter half of the 20th century.

benp · #75 Posted **May 6, 2023, 11:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wigs

Buffalo has some oddities, off the top of my head:

St. Catherines Court (recent sales according to Zillow were $850k and $1.18M)
https://goo.gl/maps/gSqzcsr4Lv5QsrDQA

Penhurst Park (sales between $650k-$950k with some est value over $1M)
https://goo.gl/maps/MoBxJT4ZgkWpE6gL8

Mayfair Lane c.1928 which was quite modern for the time: a surface level parking garage with an English courtyard and townhouses above that ends in the largest drawbridge townhouse, designed by celebrated local architect EB Green & Son. I think the son lived in the drawbridge unit.
Sales typically range from $300k for the smallest unit (~1600 sq ft) to ~$525k, with the drawbridge unit the largest and having a Zestimate of over $800k.
https://goo.gl/maps/AJjnHUPzEqgtEvke8
Zillow showing recently sold units https://shorturl.at/fmCJM

I'm sure benp can think of others since he's the forumer with more in-depth Buffalo knowledge than myself.

OK, how about this: The Allentown neighborhood, which includes the section of Delaware Avenue between downtown and Millionaire's Row, was the earliest center of Buffalo's wealthy families until they moved further north up to the Delaware District by the end of the 19th century. It still contains many of the old mansions, but the adjacent estates have since been subdivided, and the neighborhood now is a mix of incomes and better known as Buffalo's "bohemian" neighborhood.

A few examples in Allentown include:

The Wilcox Mansion dates to 1837, and is now a National Historical Site as the location where Teddy Roosevelt was inaugurated after the assassination of President McKinley in Buffalo during the Pan American Exposition of 1901.

Wilcox Mansion by self, on Flickr

The Buffalo Club, built in 1870 as the home of Stephen Van Rensselaer Watson, founder of what is now M&T Bank, and home of the Buffalo Club since 1887. The club was founded in 1867 with Millard Fillmore as its first president, and members included Grover Cleveland. It is still an active club for Buffalo's wealthy.

The Coatsworth House, built in 1879, is one of the few remaining mansions on Cottage Street, once known as "the street of coal kings." Today it has been divided into apartments.

The Knox House, built in 1894 by one of the founders of Woolworths, who later moved to Millionaire's Row. The last house owned by his widow on Millionaire's Row in 1915 was an astounding 48,000 square feet in size.

AviationGuy · #76 Posted **May 7, 2023, 2:09 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by benp

I disagree that these are "old money" neighborhoods, River Oaks and Memorial didn't really become developed until mid 20th Century, and West U was a typical suburb until the late 20th Century when all the old ranch houses and bungalows were torn down and replaced.

Not that much older, but developed earlier and dedicated to wealthy residents is Broadacres (area along North and South Boulevard) near Rice University. The nearby Museum District was also an old money neighborhood, but much of the neighborhood fell into disuse and disrepair, only coming back in some extent in the last 10-20 years or so. Montrose Blvd itself was once lined with mansions, but nearly all have been replaced.

Wrong. River Oaks was developed way, way before the mid 20th century. Do some research. Same for West University. Very old, moneyed neighborhoods. Bellaire, however, is as you described. A lot of West University has been redeveloped, largely in the last two decades, but much it (west of Kirby) was originally large two story homes built by old money. East of Kirby, which is not West U, was more as you described, and it has been mostly redeveloped as well. I know the area well...my parents lived in West U for many, many decades.

AviationGuy · #77 Posted **May 7, 2023, 2:29 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Denver: Country Club

San Antonio: Alamo Heights, Olmos Park, and King William (the first two are enclaves)

Not only have these neighborhoods remained intact as wealthy enclaves, they have maintained their regional stature.

Austin: ehhhhhh….

Hyde Park is now a mixed income community with plenty of multi-unit conversions and Tarrytown has lost a lot of its stature relative to places like Rollingwood, West Lake Hills, Northwest Hills, Bee Cave, and Lakeway.

What about Pemberton? Closest thing we have to River Oaks in Houston or Highland Park in Dallas. Old money. Not a large area, though.

Docere · #78 Posted **May 7, 2023, 3:28 AM**

Most of Canada's prewar affluent neighborhoods developed within city limits, not as independent communities. Westmount in Montreal and Forest Hill in Toronto were the main exceptions; only Westmount remains independent today.

benp · #79 Posted **May 7, 2023, 4:03 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by AviationGuy

Wrong. River Oaks was developed way, way before the mid 20th century. Do some research. Same for West University. Very old, moneyed neighborhoods. Bellaire, however, is as you described. A lot of West University has been redeveloped, largely in the last two decades, but much it (west of Kirby) was originally large two story homes built by old money. East of Kirby, which is not West U, was more as you described, and it has been mostly redeveloped as well. I know the area well...my parents lived in West U for many, many decades.

I don't know about "way, way before"...

I don't really consider River Oaks or West U to be particularly "old" places (the Heights beats them by 30 years), but in Houston terms I guess River Oaks can be considered sort of old. It started being built in the mid 1920s, but was not even fully filled out until the 1950s. Even considering how "intact" it is, fewer and fewer of the original mansions remain, as especially in the last decade they have been torn down and replaced by supersized new money estates.

West U, however, is definitely not an old money city. It was a middle-class suburb of mainly bungalows (but with some larger 2 story homes and ranch houses) that wasn't even incorporated until 1924, then grew rapidly between the 1930s and 1950s, went downhill in the 1970s, and didn't really begin transitioning to a more wealthy enclave until the 1980s. I moved to Houston in the early 80s, and worked near the Med Center. I was there during its transition when nearly every original home was replaced (almost purchased a very small very overpriced old bungalow in West U that wasn't yet a tear-down) and I would still bike frequently in the area as recently as 4 years ago. Nope, not an old money city, but currently a very nice city of expensive properties and well-to do residents.

Comrade · #80 Posted **May 7, 2023, 4:47 AM**

Most of Salt Lake's wealthy lived in mansions along South Temple Street:

The area generally remains intact, as mansions have turned into offices, but it's not home to many residents (there are a few),

The wealthy then migrated more away from the city center to a neighborhood called 'Federal Heights', which is located next to the University of Utah:

https://goo.gl/maps/7R6bobNgWdHfkH4o6

In the 1960s, when Salt Lake began a significant decline in population, the wealthy moved even further away from downtown and started building into the foothills above the city (both within SLC's borders and outside SLC's borders).

Beyond the older neighborhoods (and a few scattered throughout the valley), most the uber-wealthy relocated to the benches:

Here's an example of an area just north of the Utah Capitol Building:

https://goo.gl/maps/sPcvCV8rRaCXaV3s5