The New Jersey-NYC relationship

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Docere

And NYC accents are to a large degree more ethnic-based than neighborhood or borough-based (in spite of what this video says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hrA9-6o4tI)

^ This seems to be using Jewish NYC accents ca. 1950, but using modern-day stereotypes about boroughs. But it's not like the Bronx was "tougher" than Brooklyn in 1950.

[Crawford]

The 1950-era Jewish Bronx was very likely more patrician than Jewish Brooklyn. It was originally a German Jewish milieu and the Concourse was very solidly upper middle class, a world of doormen and elevator operators and dining rooms for entertaining. Successful garmentos dreamed of moving up to the Concourse. There was a hint of that in Brooklyn, along Eastern Parkway and Ocean Parkway, but overall it was more downscale.

By 1965 or so that world started fraying. A decade later, it had mostly disappeared.

[Crawford]

If you're interested in a beautiful Poconos home starting from the low-300's, it looks like there are some great opportunities. The developer tells us to "check out the literary scene" and "just 30 minutes to Hazelton". What convenience!

Act now before it's too late:

https://www.tuskeshomes.com/new-home...saAv5PEALw_wcB

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

If you're interested in a beautiful Poconos home starting from the low-300's, it looks like there are some great opportunities. The developer tells us to "check out the literary scene" and "just 30 minutes to Hazelton". What convenience!

Act now before it's too late:

https://www.tuskeshomes.com/new-home...saAv5PEALw_wcB

There are art galleries in Hazleton?

Googling, there are...two.

Only place around there I'd consider living is Jim Thorpe.

[Docere]

I guess there's minor differences like someone from Long Island is much more likely to go to a SUNY college upstate than someone from New Jersey.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Satellite cities (among which Gary and Hammond are definitely, and Vancouver in the Portland example) are not inner core suburbia, IMHO.

They are legacy satellites city cores surrounded by outer ring suburbia. I think this is particularly true of Vancouver, WA, where most of the inner core suburbia is within the city limits of Portland proper.

Oh, ok, so you just don't like the description of NWI as "inner ring".

That's fine, but as Crawford pointed out, suburban "rings" don't really work in older, messier, big metros that had a lot of pre-war population already existing outside the central city before the full-scale automobile-fueled sprawl-a-thon of the post-war era.

I was just trying to separate old school suburbia (street car, inner ring, railroad, industrial satellite, whatever) from true sprawl (you know, the shitty cul-de-sacs & stroads variety)

I mean, if we strictly use your interpretation of "inner ring" then even the northshore burbs don't qualify because they developed independently around their commuter rail stations, not from direct development pressure pushing outward from the city in "rings". But most people will commonly refer to places like Evanston or
highland park as "inner ring" cuz they're older than post-war sprawl.

That same courtesy would apply to NWI as well, one of the largest areas of pre-war suburban development in Chicagoland (and a lot of which has sadly been lost to the classic Rustbelt downward death spiral).



Anyway, now back to our regularly scheduled "the accents of New Jersey" programming.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The developer tells us to "check out the literary scene" and "just 30 minutes to Hazelton". What convenience!

Act now before it's too late:

This awesome "literary scene" is a small, community library which has been serving the community since 1985.

1985! Wow!

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Docere

Sorting out the NYC MSA (+Fairfield) by county ring/typology.

NYC 8,804,190

Inner-ring suburbs:

Bergen 955,732
Nassau 1,395,774
Westchester 1,004,457
total 2,351,506

Urban NJ:

Essex 863,728
Hudson 724,854
Passaic 524,118
Union 575,345
total 2,688,045

Outer-ring suburbs:

Fairfield 957,419
Hunterdon 128,947
Middlesex 863,162
Monmouth 643,615
Morris 509,285
Ocean 673,229
Pike 58,535
Putnam 97,668
Rockland 338,329
Somerset 345,361
Suffolk 1,525,920
Sussex 144,221
total 6,285,691

Total population: 21,097,889
NYC: 8,804,190
Outside NYC: 12,293,699
NJ: 6,951,597

% In New Jersey

Outside NYC 56%
Inner-ring suburban 40%
Outer-ring suburban 53%

^ Counties organized by ring/typology. But you have some urban centers in a lot of the other counties too (and inner-ring suburbs in "urban NJ"). LI is really the only part of the region that's fully suburban or exurban.

[Docere]

New Jersey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJpNmYeooQE

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Oh, ok, so you just don't like the description of NWI as "inner ring".

That's fine, but as Crawford pointed out, suburban "rings" don't really work in older, messier, big metros that had a lot of pre-war population already existing outside the central city before the full-scale automobile-fueled sprawl-a-thon of the post-war era.

I was just trying to separate old school suburbia (street car, inner ring, railroad, industrial satellite, whatever) from true sprawl (you know, the shitty cul-de-sacs & stroads variety)

I mean, if we strictly use your interpretation of "inner ring" then even the northshore burbs don't qualify because they developed independently around their commuter rail stations, not from direct development pressure pushing outward from the city in "rings". But most people will commonly refer to places like Evanston or
highland park as "inner ring" cuz they're older than post-war sprawl.

That same courtesy would apply to NWI as well, one of the largest areas of pre-war suburban development in Chicagoland (and a lot of which has sadly been lost to the classic Rustbelt downward death spiral).



Anyway, now back to our regularly scheduled "the accents of New Jersey" programming.

It seems like almost every American suburban typology can be found in Chicagoland - from old industrial satellites and railroad suburbs to boomburbs/edge cities.

Cities like NYC and Boston lack the edge city type stuff, while newer cities in the South and West obviously have little pre-war suburbia.

[Docere]

What about Philly and the South Jersey suburbs?

[JManc]

NJ is a reminder that NYS has only one professional football team. Go Bills!

[Docere]

Originally Posted by JManc

NJ is a reminder that NYS has only one professional football team. Go Bills!

Someone downstate who aspires to be Governor or Senator some day should become a Bills fan.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Docere

What about Philly and the South Jersey suburbs?

The New Jersey side seems to definitely be seen as “other” in a way that is much more present than is the case with NY.

Philly is just much more insular (and obviously smaller) than NY. It doesn’t have the same pull on “its NJ” that NY has. Being in Pennsylvania seems to matter a lot more.

[Quixote]

North/Central Jersey best captures the overall demographic profile and diversity of the NYC area while also feeling the most “accessible” to your average American. Long Island is too “New York,” while Upstate has a little bit of New England flavor with the small towns and forested areas that have more appeal among intellectuals along with being home to working-class Italian/Irish. It’s a little like Worcester and the Berkshires, but with more Jews and different accents and pro sports team allegiances.

But NJ is definitely less “culturally like New York,” at least in the sense that it generally aligns more with what most traditionally associate with the Northeast writ large.

[Docere]

Interesting to see the variations in state of birth. Some communities have populations overwhelmingly born in NJ, while others have large numbers born in a different state (usually NY).

Looking at Essex County for example:

Short Hills

Born in NJ 38%
Different state 44%

Montclair

Born in NJ 47%
Different state 40%

Glen Ridge

Born in NJ 49%
Different state 38%

North Caldwell

Born in NJ 70%
Different state 22%

Cedar Grove

Born in NJ 68%
Different state 19%

Nutley

Born in NJ 66%
Different state 14%

[Crawford]

The first three are probably more affluent/educated and seem to attract more "cosmopolitans" or whatever you want to call them. They're also older, more urbanish and on rail lines to Manhattan, so attract people whose lives probably have some Manhattan orientation.

[Docere]

You can probably find a Westchester counterpart to these suburbs. Short Hills and Scarsdale most obviously. Montclair probably attracts a similar demographic to the river towns, though it's much more racially diverse. Nutley is like Eastchester, very Italian American.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Quixote

North/Central Jersey best captures the overall demographic profile and diversity of the NYC area while also feeling the most “accessible” to your average American. Long Island is too “New York,” while Upstate has a little bit of New England flavor with the small towns and forested areas that have more appeal among intellectuals along with being home to working-class Italian/Irish. It’s a little like Worcester and the Berkshires, but with more Jews and different accents and pro sports team allegiances.

But NJ is definitely less “culturally like New York,” at least in the sense that it generally aligns more with what most traditionally associate with the Northeast writ large.

Upstate isn't in the NYC metro area. Westchester, Rockland and Putnam are never considered upstate. The CSA does contain some counties that are considered Upstate though.

[Quixote]

By “Upstate,” I mean the Hudson River Valley counties that are in the CSA.