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  #3041  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 1:30 PM
SteelCityRising SteelCityRising is offline
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Originally Posted by AlleghenyCityDude View Post
I would like to add one point to the Strip District gentrification discussion. It's important to note that many of the core businesses that think of as the heart of the Penn Ave commercial corridor, Penn Mac, Stambolis, Sunseri, Parma, Deluca's, etc. all own their own properties. You can't forcibly displace a business from land/buildings that they own. And no, property taxes are not a possible mechanism for this either because A. We reassess maybe once a decade so you should have lots of time to prepare and B. they are businesses which should always be doing basic cost accounting to build in their expenses into the price of their products. This should definitely be taken into account when thinking about possible displacement in the commercial heart of the Strip.
Wonderful! Thanks so much! I didn't realize so many of the "favorite" local merchants and restaurateurs in the Strip owned their own properties vs. rented.

I think as the Strip continues to grow residentially we'll be able to have the historic Penn Avenue core retain its unique local businesses while some national chains could also open along Smallman WITHOUT being the nail in the coffin for the Penn Avenue corridor. I'm hoping to limit the amount of national retailers or restaurants that move into the Strip; however, I think it's only a matter of time before a Starbucks, Hello Bistro (which is technically a local chain), Crazy Mocha (also a local chain), Moe's/Qdoba/Chipotle, etc. open in the 2020's. I would hate to see those "big fish" put places like La Prima Espresso or Bella Notte or Cafe Raymond or Roland's out of business.
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  #3042  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 2:09 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
"NIMBYism" is a large category. I like to look at it more granularly.

In this case we're talking about an anti-gentrification agenda. I would contrast this to agendas against other developments such as new schools or fracing sites. There are common traits but gentrification is a heavily loaded topic that has it's own specific type of NIMBYism.

Unfortunately, I think we're in store for a lot more of it. American politics is very polarized and I think views on gentrification are becoming a litmus test for one side of the political spectrum. In the same way that american conservatism has locked onto climate change denial in a seemingly unreasonable way, it seems that american liberalism has locked onto changing neighborhood wealth in as similarly prejudged way.

Perhaps that's venturing too far down a political rabbit hole though. My overall point is that few people hear the word gentrification and continue listening with an open mind. Instead there is a knee jerk reaction one way or the other. Basically, what political camp do you align with.

Granted, that's a simplification but it does seem overly linked to party affiliation now.
It's more important how people act than what they say.

I've noticed a lot of right wingers have become basically pro-gentrification - either because they see it as a way to whitewash the city and "clean it up" or because they just want to take the opposite position as "liberals." But these type of people almost never live in the city, so it doesn't matter.

On the flip side, white liberals might whinge about gentrification being a real problem, but it's not like this has slowed down gentrification in any way.

Really one of the biggest issues is that the anti-gentrification crowd have embraced NIMBYism - the idea that we can stop neighborhoods from gentrifying by not building big market-rate apartment buildings in low-income neighborhoods. This is wrongheaded, because it's fundamentally a supply issue, and not building enough new construction buildings for yuppies makes them more likely to displace low income renters.

The ideal solution - which would slow down gentrification and help alleviate housing shortages - would be to engage in massive upzoning in the most desirable neighborhoods. For example, if big portions of Shadyside and Squirrel Hill were upzoned 25 years ago you would see a lot less activity in East Liberty today. But one iron law in U.S. zoning is entitled rich folks will have their own blocks protected from being fucked with.

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Originally Posted by AaronPGH View Post
Yeah, I realize it's a bit of a pipe dream, but it'd be great to see Pittsburgh get ahead of the curve in some way. If not rent control, there are a lot of other ways to assist and accomplish similar things. Tax breaks? Grants for upgrading storefronts or improving aging buildings for legacy businesses?
It will be interesting to see how the retail turns out in Walnut Capital's new building in Oakland. OPDC is going to be the landlord and explicitly rent out small subsections to local businesses. It might point to an interesting way forward to allow local non-chain businesses to survive in increasingly built up areas.

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Originally Posted by AaronPGH View Post
Because it's unique. It's an amazing mix of places like Penn Mac (1902) next to some of the best new restaurants in the city – coexisting. You can find almost anything from around the world that you're looking for in the markets down there. I understand it's always been an evolving place, but we've also never seen such a massive injection of capital into the neighborhood. It's a bit of uncharted territory for Pittsburgh. There are going to be major shifts this time that the Strip has not dealt with in the past.
I understand, and I don't disagree that it's something unique. I just don't think it's really possible to freeze what a neighborhood is in time. Through historic preservation you can to some degree freeze the built structure of a place, but the residents, customers, and uses will change over time.

I also think that fundamentally businesses like Penn Mac - even though they own their buildings - will eventually get pushed out. The "Old Strip" was built on the model of suburbanites driving in for the weekend, parking all day, and wandering around (kinda like tailgaters at Steelers games). Parking is getting more scarce as the areas around the most built up commercial part of Penn are redeveloped, and it will get worse as time goes on. Additional urban congestion is starting to dissuade some of them from coming in as well.

Of course the Strip has thousands of new residents and workers, but they're going to be looking for the more typical mixture of bars, restaurants, coffeeshops, and basic staples sort of things you get in most thriving urban business districts - not necessarily to shop for spices, popcorn, or party supplies.

Basically, I feel like what the "Old Strip" was is fundamentally not well aligned with a dense mixed-use neighborhood, since it requires tons of outsiders to drive there in order for the businesses to support themselves. We could perhaps ameliorate part of this with better transit - particularly if there was some way to add a rapid transit node which allowed downtown tourists/visitors/workers to hop back and forth between the Strip and Downtown more quickly. But barring that, it's just going to be another Walnut Street or something eventually.
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  #3043  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 4:00 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Another December ZBA agenda (for 12/12) is already online.

The big news for that week is it looks like the Housing Authority is building a relatively large number of new units in the Lower Hill. This is a semi scattered site development spread across three streets (though about a block) and includes ten units in all. Locations are here, here, and here.

There's not much else for that week - just another infill house in an alley in Central Lawrenceville, and three sign permits.
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  #3044  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 4:29 PM
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Originally Posted by AaronPGH View Post
Yeah, I realize it's a bit of a pipe dream, but it'd be great to see Pittsburgh get ahead of the curve in some way. If not rent control, there are a lot of other ways to assist and accomplish similar things. Tax breaks? Grants for upgrading storefronts or improving aging buildings for legacy businesses?
It would be cool if the City/County could come up with some type of novel mechanism/model to assist small, independent startup businesses in "hot" neighborhoods. Tax breaks would be really tough to offer to businesses in the Strip and not have to offer them to businesses throughout the city. And I'm not really for corporate welfare for established businesses, regardless of business size.

I think it really comes down to the core Penn Ave. businesses being able to maintain and compete with the additional options that have been coming to the neighborhood, and which are going to keep coming. I mean, that's a fact of business life... and if we remember not too long ago, those long-standing Penn Ave. outfits even made a stink about the arrival of that pitiful little, short-lived "Pittsburgh Public Market" thing a couple blocks up Penn because they feared they'd lose customers. I mean, if they're scared of having to compete with that, then they might as well just close their doors and go home.

There's a certain entitlement that some of the Strip businesses have seemed to have for a little while which kinda bugs me... especially when 10 years ago or so, the core Penn Ave. business stretch was totally filthy. It's fine with me to be a gritty, authentic market district, but it's another situation entirely when the roof/awnings over the sidewalks had literally rotten to mud and moss and were falling down (as was the case with Stamoolis and Penn Mac). That's just business owners being fucking lazy and insulting to their customers. And I think we should remember that the store lineup on Penn has not remained some static picture of historic family-run businesses -- there has been lots of turnover and moving around there over the past 2 decades-plus.

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Originally Posted by AaronPGH View Post
Because it's unique. It's an amazing mix of places like Penn Mac (1902) next to some of the best new restaurants in the city – coexisting. You can find almost anything from around the world that you're looking for in the markets down there. I understand it's always been an evolving place, but we've also never seen such a massive injection of capital into the neighborhood. It's a bit of uncharted territory for Pittsburgh. There are going to be major shifts this time that the Strip has not dealt with in the past.
I'm not sure how unique it really is though... you can go just across the state to Philadelphia and you get pretty much the same thing as Penn Ave. (but larger and arguably better) in South Philly in the Italian Market area, albeit in a much more dense atmosphere with more food options and less t-shirt shops.

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Originally Posted by AlleghenyCityDude View Post
I would like to add one point to the Strip District gentrification discussion. It's important to note that many of the core businesses that think of as the heart of the Penn Ave commercial corridor, Penn Mac, Stambolis, Sunseri, Parma, Deluca's, etc. all own their own properties. You can't forcibly displace a business from land/buildings that they own. And no, property taxes are not a possible mechanism for this either because A. We reassess maybe once a decade so you should have lots of time to prepare and B. they are businesses which should always be doing basic cost accounting to build in their expenses into the price of their products. This should definitely be taken into account when thinking about possible displacement in the commercial heart of the Strip.
If established Penn Ave. businesses have a problem with thousands of new potential customers living in very close proximity to their establishments, then I have ZERO sympathy for them when they complain about the associated commercial competition that comes with development.

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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Of course the Strip has thousands of new residents and workers, but they're going to be looking for the more typical mixture of bars, restaurants, coffeeshops, and basic staples sort of things you get in most thriving urban business districts - not necessarily to shop for spices, popcorn, or party supplies.

Basically, I feel like what the "Old Strip" was is fundamentally not well aligned with a dense mixed-use neighborhood, since it requires tons of outsiders to drive there in order for the businesses to support themselves. We could perhaps ameliorate part of this with better transit - particularly if there was some way to add a rapid transit node which allowed downtown tourists/visitors/workers to hop back and forth between the Strip and Downtown more quickly. But barring that, it's just going to be another Walnut Street or something eventually.
I think the Strip in contrast with south Philly's Italian Market/S 9th Street/Passyunk neighborhood area is an interesting way to look at it. In Philly, it's a much denser and mixed-use situation, but still in relative close proximity to Center City, like the Strip is to Downtown. And while there is a huge residential population in the neighborhood, the businesses also thrive due to the weekend suburbanites visiting. Yet, the Italian Market area has been able to maintain that "Old Strip" function, with the broad assortment of spices, popcorn, and party supplies like you mention.
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  #3045  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 5:21 PM
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Is it me? Or are other people tired of hearing about this Carrie Furnace bullshit. I remember when local officials were touting this site in 2003. It's 2020 now. Is there actual demand for this?

Based on the fact that this site has sat completely undeveloped with ZERO interest in it for 15 years after over $30M of public money has been pumped into it... and now just the public RIDC/Pittsburgh Film office with a single private developer showing "interest", it doesn't seem like it to me.

We have the massive ALMONO/Hazelwood Green just getting going after well over a decade of planning, new development proposals in the PTC, and in the Strip and Upper Lawrenceville... all for "tech-flex" type of space. Yet somehow a site further away from downtown and Oakland (and far less accessible) along the Mon in Rankin shows potential for this? I don't get it at all.

Make it a really nice riverfront park and host more events and concerts at the Carrie Furnaces, and that will do wonders for Braddock, which we've been told has been "up and coming" for a decade now. Focus your efforts, Pittsburgh.

Heating up? Sound stages, tech-flex buildings pitched for the reuse of the Carrie Furnace site

https://www.post-gazette.com/busines...s/201911210113

Quote:
The first seeds of redevelopment could be germinating at the long vacant 168-acre Carrie Furnace site in the Mon Valley.

Boston developer The Davis Companies is pitching a plan to build tech-flex buildings on one side of the Monongahela riverfront tract, while the Pittsburgh Film Office and Regional Industrial Development Corp. are working on a proposal to bring a piece of Hollywood to another part of it.
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  #3046  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 6:04 PM
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Is it me? Or are other people tired of hearing about this Carrie Furnace bullshit. I remember when local officials were touting this site in 2003. It's 2020 now. Is there actual demand for this?

Based on the fact that this site has sat completely undeveloped with ZERO interest in it for 15 years after over $30M of public money has been pumped into it... and now just the public RIDC/Pittsburgh Film office with a single private developer showing "interest", it doesn't seem like it to me.

We have the massive ALMONO/Hazelwood Green just getting going after well over a decade of planning, new development proposals in the PTC, and in the Strip and Upper Lawrenceville... all for "tech-flex" type of space. Yet somehow a site further away from downtown and Oakland (and far less accessible) along the Mon in Rankin shows potential for this? I don't get it at all.

Make it a really nice riverfront park and host more events and concerts at the Carrie Furnaces, and that will do wonders for Braddock, which we've been told has been "up and coming" for a decade now. Focus your efforts, Pittsburgh.

Heating up? Sound stages, tech-flex buildings pitched for the reuse of the Carrie Furnace site

https://www.post-gazette.com/busines...s/201911210113

Agree completely. Carrie Furnace is an insane asset as a park, historical site, and event space. Reminds me of Ferropolis in Germany, a bit outside of Berlin. It functions as a museum and site for festivals.

https://www.ferropolis.de/en/

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  #3047  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 2:22 AM
AlleghenyCityDude AlleghenyCityDude is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Of course the Strip has thousands of new residents and workers, but they're going to be looking for the more typical mixture of bars, restaurants, coffeeshops, and basic staples sort of things you get in most thriving urban business districts - not necessarily to shop for spices, popcorn, or party supplies.
I think the reality is that the core of the legacy Strip district commercial has at its heart a relatively small amount of businesses that take up very little space in the overall Strip. There are lot of current businesses that add nothing or very little and could be replaced with better uses and more importantly, there is an abundance of un/under utilized land area where those type of uses can fit into the mix.

As a downtown resident who shops in the strip regularly and especially at Penn Mac, I somewhat disagree with the description above. While we do get delivery from Amazon/Whole Foods, I'd say about half our food we get at Penn Mac and I'd say if we had to, we could really get 80% of our food there (there produce section is fairly decent actually). My wife and I love walking to the Strip from Downtown and doing some real shopping there for our day to day needs.

I think it's possible that the new residents will support the legacy businesses but you might be right if the newer residents in the Strip are suburban transplants who want to keep their lifestyles mostly the same just in an urban format rather than adapting to environment. We'll see, but I think the more people we can pack into the area, the more likely all of the businesses are to succeed.

If I had some time, I'd love to do an analysis of how many suburbanite cars can fit into the Strip given current parking and turnover versus how many units of housing we would need to surpass the spending of those car borne folks. My gut tells me it's not as many as most would think even with a conservative estimate of how much the residents might actually shop there.
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  #3048  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 2:27 AM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Apparently, the URA is getting close to picking a developer for a medium-sized project in Hazelwood. A decision will be made this December by the organization on which of three different plans will go forward for infill around the intersection of Second Avenue and Hazelwood Avenue.

The choices are:

1. A Community Builders/Rothschild Doyno/Sota project involving 50 low-income units in a mixed-use building, plus a solar power array and later infill of ten for-sale townhouse units further uphill.

2. A Telesis/LGA/Mistick project involving 86 residential units (90% of them affordable) plus 36,000 square feet of commercial space.

3. A Trek/AE7 project which will involve either a four-story, 54-unit or a five-story 76-unit building, depending upon financing. Either way it will involve 17,000 square feet of first floor commercial space - plus ten townhouses further uphill, similar to the first project.
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  #3049  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 2:46 AM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by AlleghenyCityDude View Post
I think the reality is that the core of the legacy Strip district commercial has at its heart a relatively small amount of businesses that take up very little space in the overall Strip. There are lot of current businesses that add nothing or very little and could be replaced with better uses and more importantly, there is an abundance of un/under utilized land area where those type of uses can fit into the mix.
The way you worded this is a bit opaque, but I'm guessing you mean I cherry-picked a few of the real specialty retailers which would have a hard time surviving, and that most don't face the same pressures? To that I say you're pretty much correct. Though I can't see any more than one of the Steelers trash vendors surviving.

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Originally Posted by AlleghenyCityDude View Post
As a downtown resident who shops in the strip regularly and especially at Penn Mac, I somewhat disagree with the description above. While we do get delivery from Amazon/Whole Foods, I'd say about half our food we get at Penn Mac and I'd say if we had to, we could really get 80% of our food there (there produce section is fairly decent actually). My wife and I love walking to the Strip from Downtown and doing some real shopping there for our day to day needs.
Personally, I don't shop much in the Strip District, and I didn't even shop there much when I lived in Lawrenceville. Pretty much the only time I did so was when I was biking back home from Downtown at the end of a work day. I'd stop in Lotus or one of the other Asian food markets and pick up a backpack worth of stuff. I've never been much of one for weekend busing (I'd rather tool around my neighborhood on foot) and the parking situation on the Strip over the weekend is not really set up for people who just want to pop in for an hour to get one or two things.

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Originally Posted by AlleghenyCityDude View Post
I think it's possible that the new residents will support the legacy businesses but you might be right if the newer residents in the Strip are suburban transplants who want to keep their lifestyles mostly the same just in an urban format rather than adapting to environment. We'll see, but I think the more people we can pack into the area, the more likely all of the businesses are to succeed.
It's not so much that the businesses in question won't appeal to newcomers because they are suburban transplants, its that a lot of the businesses specialize in items which people don't always shop for on a weekly basis. They have a very wide customer base because people shop infrequently, which means they have to rely upon people coming in from outside the neighborhood - many of whom don't want to have to be hassled by spending 30 minutes+ hunting for a parking space.
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  #3050  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 3:27 AM
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The Strip District is booming, and I couldn't possibly be more thrilled. I wish there weren't so many NIMBY obstructionists in this city, though. The Post-Gazette just ran a negative article about how this growth is "gentrifying" the Strip District.

I don't understand how putting up condos and apartment buildings on vacant lots and/or rehabilitating vacant structures for such purposes can be considered "gentrification". If I'm not mistaken the population of the Strip District was only ~600 in 2010. I'm sure it will probably be around 3,000 as of the 2020 Census. How many of the ~600 in 2010 were displaced to make room for the newcomers? I'm guessing 0, as I can't think of any occupied structures that have been razed for upzoning or denser infill.

In terms of commerce I don't think anyone---even the developers---want to see Penn Avenue between 16th & 22nd Street (the historic commercial core of the neighborhood) switch from places like Penn Mac and Wholey's and Parma Sausage and La Prima and Pittsburgh Popcorn over to Athleta and Starbucks and Ben & Jerry's and Chick-fil-A and Whole Foods. This attractive gritty historic commercial core is part of what makes it so easy to attract high-end buyers for new condos at $400,000+ and high-end renters for new $1,500+/month apartments. One perk for me choosing to rent in Polish Hill in 2010 was ease of accessibility to businesses along Penn in the Strip. As long as the commercial core of the Strip isn't compromised (and thus far I haven't seen that happening), then I don't see ANY gentrification---residential or commercial---occurring.

On NextDoor I keep arguing against NIMBY's who proclaim Pittsburgh "already has too many apartment buildings, and they're all half-empty". Can anyone document evidence of this? As far as I know ALL of the new high-end buildings going up in the East End and the Strip and Oakland are nearly fully-occupied. I know The Refinery, the high-end condo project still being built by DiAnoia's, only has two units left (one standard-priced one which should sell soon and a high-end penthouse that will probably take a while to sell). I believe Edge 1909 took a little while to fill up, but it is also priced higher than nearby complexes. Those townhouses near Edge 1909 sold like hot cakes, if I'm not mistaken. If I was affluent I'd love to live in the Strip.

I'm not sure why there's so much NIMBYism against what's happening in the Strip. Can anyone confirm if NIMBYism is this bad in every city or just Pittsburgh?
Great rendering! I would love to see the penguins site included in this to see the scale of what is being built there. I would really like to see some taller buildings in our skyline!
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  #3051  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 3:06 PM
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Next Pittsburgh has an article and renderings of 23RR, the new apartments and co-living spaces coming to The Strip next to the Cork Factory....

https://www.nextpittsburgh.com/city-...20-apartments/





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  #3052  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 6:27 PM
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Agree completely. Carrie Furnace is an insane asset as a park, historical site, and event space. Reminds me of Ferropolis in Germany, a bit outside of Berlin. It functions as a museum and site for festivals.

https://www.ferropolis.de/en/

Yeah, super cool. Germany has a lot of reconstruction ideas that I think would be good for Pittsburgh.
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  #3053  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 6:40 PM
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WOW! I love their plans for the riverfront side of the building! So creative and inviting. I'm sure that will be HUGE selling point for these apartments!

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Next Pittsburgh has an article and renderings of 23RR, the new apartments and co-living spaces coming to The Strip next to the Cork Factory....

https://www.nextpittsburgh.com/city-...20-apartments/





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  #3054  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 7:27 PM
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WOW! I love their plans for the riverfront side of the building! So creative and inviting. I'm sure that will be HUGE selling point for these apartments!
I'm pretty sure you are being facetious, and I would add that this is another metal panel monstrosity that will look like crap in 20 years. Look at the building next to it - The Cork Factory. Its still enduring because it has simple architecture and materials that are warm and human-scaled. Not much to tie this new building into the community. Although I do like the balconies!
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  #3055  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 7:33 PM
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Again, my biggest issue with the design is the choice to use green metal paneling on the riverfront facade. The building will - during the warm months - just blend in with the riverfront trees immediately in front of it, and the green wall of the Hill District behind it.

I'd strongly prefer that if they're going to do a metal accent panel, they do red or something similar to make it pop.
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  #3056  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 10:06 PM
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I cant wait for metal cladding to die off. That building is a monstrosity.
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  #3057  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2019, 12:11 AM
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I'm pretty sure you are being facetious, and I would add that this is another metal panel monstrosity that will look like crap in 20 years. Look at the building next to it - The Cork Factory. Its still enduring because it has simple architecture and materials that are warm and human-scaled. Not much to tie this new building into the community. Although I do like the balconies!
Exactly what I've been seeing for years now. To me, it's a regression of design. I don't understand why the sum accumulated body of design work has arrived at....metal panels. So many buildings have the same run down, cheap look. Glad buildings are being built, but not with the current designs. And being side by side to the Cork Bldg is a glaring example of classic, timeless design vs. fashion design.
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  #3058  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2019, 2:21 PM
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So developing the Carrie Furnace site into a jobs location would be very helpful for some nearby communities, and possibly farther down the Mon Valley. At the moment, it may be premature to expect a lot, but if the Hazelwood LTV site starts filling up, then maybe.

Meanwhile, you could preserve the actual Carrie Furnace structures, plus a good chunk of land too, and still have plenty space left for development.
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  #3059  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 1:52 PM
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In case someone is curious, the URA has publicly posted the 11 responses to their RFQ regarding the development of open parcels in the Centre Avenue corridor. The map they include of the development sites is frankly very confusing because different developers are bidding on the same parcels in multiple cases. KBK's plan is the most exhaustive by far, proposing to develop 170 parcels through a mixture of three/four story apartment buildings with ground-floor retain and townhouses. The other developers are proposing relatively small projects.

I can see the desire of the community to perhaps go with many of the small developers, as even with the overlap in interest (two want the Centre Builders Supply & Lumber Company building, for example) generally speaking subdividing big redevelopments leads to a quicker start of development and a more interesting, heterogeneous urban fabric. Given the way the URA works however - their bias towards big master-planned projects - I would not be surprised if KBK wins almost everything.
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  #3060  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 1:58 PM
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I can see the desire of the community to perhaps go with many of the small developers, as even with the overlap in interest (two want the Centre Builders Supply & Lumber Company building, for example) generally speaking subdividing big redevelopments leads to a quicker start of development and a more interesting, heterogeneous urban fabric. Given the way the URA works however - their bias towards big master-planned projects - I would not be surprised if KBK wins almost everything.
If we could basically get the same overall density of use while splitting it up between multiple developers--and off hand that seems possible reading the summaries--I agree that would be ideal. I note it looks to me like KBK is the only developer interested in various properties, so unless it is all or nothing for them, they would be highly involved either way.

Unfortunately, I agree that is generally not the URA way--but who knows, since the politics of all this can be complicated (meaning it still very much matters who you know).
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