Great Lakes Cities

[Docere]

I know next to nothing about Grand Rapids, but I get the sense it's a city of 1 million in a Rochester kind of way not a Buffalo kind of way.

[Crawford]

I don't think GR has nearly the gravitas of Rochester. It feels much newer, and the metro kinda "cheats" in that much of the population consists of lakefront sprawl areas around Holland, which until very recently were considered unrelated. Rochester has legacy city assets like a major symphony hall & art museum, flagship parks, major old-line corps, renowned universities, regional foods, etc.

GR feels like a smaller Columbus or Indy, Rochester feels like a smaller Cleveland or Cincy. I'm pretty sure GR was smaller than even Flint until a few decades ago, and growing up in MI in the 1990's, the two cities felt in the same general weight class. I don't think GR has the gravitas of Syracuse or even Toledo. Even right now, Toledo has far more legacy city assets than GR.

[Docere]

Yeah, the Grand Rapids comparison is a bit "unfair" to Rochester. Both Buffalo and Rochester seem like little Clevelands.

[Docere]

Or when comparing with Ontario cities, Grand Rapids may be Ottawa-sized, but seems more like a London.

[Velvet_Highground]

I agree with the sentiment that Grand Rapids doesn’t have the for lack of a better phrase historical weight and pull that an old yet well developed mid sized cultural center like Syracuse does. Toledo for that matter has a historic downtown that’s exceptional for a city of its size along with quality urban cultural institutions like the Toledo Zoo and University of Toledo.

With those caveats respected Grand Rapids has an extremely well preserved historic medium density downtown. It’s moving into a mature phase of downtown development with the medical mile mid rise district as well as some high rise developments that isn’t just along the banks of the river. It has a ways to go to make a grand statement but it’s got a very sold foundation that’s just beginning to bear fruit.

The character of the city is changing as well Kent and Muskegon counties went for Biden in 2020 if not for the outsized win Trump achieved in Ottawa it would be easier to see in the statistics that the region has taken a center left turn. Grand Rapids has started to get its own thing going and it’s actually pretty interesting and attractive.

GR offers an attractive lifestyle the urban core of the city didn’t decline in the way other GL cities did which is where I can see the Indy and Columbus comparison. Though it didn’t do it though annexation and it’s not a state capitol which is where that comparison ends.

I know of several people, friends and family friends who have moved to GR pre and post Covid either to retire or because GR offers something new. It’s the beginning of a major city that offers the West Michigan lifestyle that lets be honest millions come from all across the country to enjoy during the summer. East access to the sandy dunes of the east shore of Lake Michigan and state forest with a slightly hilly geography that includes not an insignificant number of smaller lakes. Conversely GR itself specifically Kent County is far enough inland that it’s spared the brunt of lake effect that has kept the year round population of the West Michigan shore down.

The long and short of it for me is that GR is making a play at becoming a major city. It’s been kind of a running joke that Albuquerque, El Paso & Vegas until it got its pro sports teams weren’t real cities. While a national sports franchise doesn’t make a major city or give it gravitas but national acclaim is one of the features that does and sports tends to be the quickest route. We’ll have to see how GR develops in the future I think it has the momentum to make it but whether it gets the recognition or not is a different question newer cities that aren’t explosive boomtowns are hard to break through onto the national stage with so many competitors staking claim to sources of the traditional spectrum of the “big city”.

[MolsonExport]

Rochester and Grand Rapids are very underexposed cities given their size. We never hear about them up in London (Ontario), where I currently live. Mind you, there are people that live in London that may not have heard of London, because we are the epitome of an overlooked city.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Velvet_Highground

Conversely GR itself specifically Kent County is far enough inland that it’s spared the brunt of lake effect that has kept the year round population of the West Michigan shore down.

Being inland helps GR a little bit on the lake effect snow front, but it's still on the general "wrong" side of lake Michigan for it.


Annual snow fall totals:

Muskegon: 87.2"
Grand Rapids: 77.6"
Milwaukee: 48.7"


All three are at roughly the same latitude, but Muskegon gets almost twice as much snow as Milwaukee.

GR is closer in snowfall to Muskegon than it is to Milwaukee.

[subterranean]

Rochester is not even on my radar as being anywhere near a million. In my mind’s eye, Rochester is the Toledo of New York.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by Crawford

GR feels like a smaller Columbus or Indy, Rochester feels like a smaller Cleveland or Cincy. I'm pretty sure GR was smaller than even Flint until a few decades ago, and growing up in MI in the 1990's, the two cities felt in the same general weight class. I don't think GR has the gravitas of Syracuse or even Toledo. Even right now, Toledo has far more legacy city assets than GR.

Just reading this and about fell off my chair. If I had to choose between living in Toledo or Grand Rapids, I wouldn’t even have to think about it. It would be Grand Rapids in a heartbeat. No offense to Toledo, but Grand Rapids’ quality of life is head and shoulders above NW Ohio. Toledo hasn’t posted growth since the 70s.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't think GR has nearly the gravitas of Rochester. It feels much newer, and the metro kinda "cheats" in that much of the population consists of lakefront sprawl areas around Holland, which until very recently were considered unrelated. Rochester has legacy city assets like a major symphony hall & art museum, flagship parks, major old-line corps, renowned universities, regional foods, etc.

People in this forum keep saying that Grand Rapids “cheats” in population because of the coastal cities. The MSA doesn’t even include Muskegon or Holland and it’s still over a million without them. It’s 1.4 million in the CSA, which does include Muskegon and Holland. These cities don’t make any sense as MSA, but perfect sense as CSA. Holland is 30 miles away from downtown GR. It’s a complete stretch to say Holland is “until recently unrelated.”

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Rochester and Grand Rapids are very underexposed cities given their size. We never hear about them up in London (Ontario), where I currently live. Mind you, there are people that live in London that may not have heard of London, because we are the epitome of an overlooked city.

Yeah I was shocked a couple years ago when I saw some Grand Rapids walking tours by youtube channel Devin Sullivan. I had heard of the city but assumed it was the size of Kalamazoo, Bangor, or Billings. But in the videos it looked like a fairly major city, and when I looked it up I saw it had a metro area of over a million (?!?). I always thought of MI as being a huge city and a sprinkling of small, local cities so finding out it had another metro area larger than Winnipeg or QC was quite a revelation.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by subterranean

People in this forum keep saying that Grand Rapids “cheats” in population because of the coastal cities. The MSA doesn’t even include Muskegon or Holland and it’s still over a million without them.

Half of Holland is in Ottawa county, which is a part GR's MSA.

Grand Haven is also is in Ottawa county.

So some of the shore cities are included.

It's odd how the CB splits off Allegan county into its own MSA and calls it "Holland" when almost half of Holland is in Ottawa county, and thus part of the GR MSA.

It's messy over there, which is why I think the UA number for GR is a lot more informative for how big the city actually feels.

But I'm HEAVILY biased towards the UA figures for the vast majority of cities.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Docere

I'll share the demographics wiz prize with Diamondpark and Quixote.

Thanks to all


(Yuri could have been added but he seems to have vanished)

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by subterranean

Just reading this and about fell off my chair. If I had to choose between living in Toledo or Grand Rapids, I wouldn’t even have to think about it. It would be Grand Rapids in a heartbeat. No offense to Toledo, but Grand Rapids’ quality of life is head and shoulders above NW Ohio. Toledo hasn’t posted growth since the 70s.

I didn't mention anything related to quality of life, growth rates or overall living preferences. I was only referring to legacy city assets.

The vast majority of Americans seemingly prefer to live in a McMansion in newer sprawl. That isn't really related to the conversation. And no one is moving to Toledo specifically bc they have stuff like a nice zoo, cool rail station and Hungarian taverns. All that said, I would never consider living in GR, and find it to be sprawly and souless. I like cities with good bones and character and GR lacks this, Toledo doesn't.

[iheartthed]

I don't really think there'd be a huge difference in lifestyle between living in Grand Rapids or living in Toledo. They seem like similarly sized cities to me, but downtown Grand Rapids is probably a little more polished. Flint, Grand Rapids, and Toledo strike me as cities in the same class. However, Grand Rapids is the only one of those cities that is actually growing now.

[Steely Dan]

Flint is a tier below the other two in size/importance in my mind.

And the gap between GR and Flint is absolutely still widening.

[Docere]

500,000+ metros (2020/2021 census)

Chicago 9,449,341
Toronto-Hamilton 7,281,694
Detroit 4,392,041
Cleveland 2,160,146
Milwaukee 1,760,268
Ottawa-Gatineau 1,488,307
Buffalo 1,166,902
Grand Rapids 1,150,015
Rochester 1,065,361
Toledo 606,240
Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge 575,847
London 543,551

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I didn't mention anything related to quality of life, growth rates or overall living preferences. I was only referring to legacy city assets.

The vast majority of Americans seemingly prefer to live in a McMansion in newer sprawl. That isn't really related to the conversation. And no one is moving to Toledo specifically bc they have stuff like a nice zoo, cool rail station and Hungarian taverns. All that said, I would never consider living in GR, and find it to be sprawly and souless. I like cities with good bones and character and GR lacks this, Toledo doesn't.

Are we even talking about the same Toledo? What sort of urban fabric do you think Toledo has that is absent from Grand Rapids? Here I have been doing street view of Toledo for almost an hour and I am struggling to figure out just what exactly the hell you are talking about. It is virtually indistinguishable from Flint. Show me what you are talking about because I'm not seeing it. Without examples, you are just blowing smoke. Grand Rapids has an extremely well preserved historic central city with a vibrant downtown. There is literally no comparison between the two.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I don't really think there'd be a huge difference in lifestyle between living in Grand Rapids or living in Toledo. They seem like similarly sized cities to me, but downtown Grand Rapids is probably a little more polished. Flint, Grand Rapids, and Toledo strike me as cities in the same class. However, Grand Rapids is the only one of those cities that is actually growing now.

The best thing going for Toledo is that it's an hour from Detroit.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by subterranean

Are we even talking about the same Toledo? What sort of urban fabric do you think Toledo has that is absent from Grand Rapids? Here I have been doing street view of Toledo for almost an hour and I am struggling to figure out just what exactly the hell you are talking about. It is virtually indistinguishable from Flint. Show me what you are talking about because I'm not seeing it. Without examples, you are just blowing smoke. Grand Rapids has an extremely well preserved historic central city with a vibrant downtown. There is literally no comparison between the two.

I have no idea what you're talking about re. Toledo and Flint. And I've given many examples. The world class art museum, the huge late art deco train station, the mammoth auto factories, prewar office towers, an in-town university, grand prewar civic structures and a top-tier zoo, better than Detroit, to say nothing of GR. GR has none of this.

You prolly like GR better bc it's growing, more economically dynamic and newer but this has nothing to do with the conversation. There are Indy/Columbus people and Cleveland/Buffalo people.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Flint is a tier below the other two in size/importance in my mind.

And the gap between GR and Flint is absolutely still widening.

Flint, in 2023, has almost ceased having a distinct identity. The Oakland County sprawl reached Flint's southern suburbs, which shifted Flint's favored quarter from westward to southward. Now it's basically a Metro Detroit exurb with a hollowed-out core. The Flint buses now even run to sprawly Oakland County areas.