Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

What do you mean by that?!?

While the anger we used to see is now mostly absent (at least in Québec) one does get a sense that we are slowly but surely drifting apart.

In fact, regions and demographics in Canada seem to be drifting apart more generally.

Of course things are exacerbated when it comes to Québec because of existing fault lines.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Absolutely not. This is like comparing polar bears and Swiss chocolate.

More than 16% of the population in Alsace was born in the rest of France. And in Corsica more than 30% of the population was born in the rest of France. In the French Basque Country it's even higher (ancestral Basques are now a minority in the French Basque Country).

Absolutely nothing comparable in Québec. The average Frenchman is far, far more likely to live at some point in their life in Alsace, Corsica, or French Basque Country than the average Anglo-Canadian is ever likely to live in Québec. Ditto for vacationing in Alsace, Corsica, or French Basque Country. These parts of France are also far more culturally integrated with the rest of France than Québec with the rest of Canada (how often do people in Toronto or Calgary eat poutine, if they even know that such a thing exists, compared to basically every Frenchman that has eaten at least once Alsatian choucroute, which is a favorite dish everywhere in France? this is just one example).

Not to mention that social security and pensions are the same, whether one works in Strasbourg, Ajaccio, Bayonne, Paris, or Lyon, it's all the same. School system is also exactly the same. Courts are exactly the same. And France is a far smaller country than Canada where people actually drive from one end of the country to the other end, whereas how many Anglo-Canadians ever drove across Québec as opposed to just flying above it?

I'm from Quebec and I spent more than 30 years living in that Province. I know it better than you do. I don't care if you are pro Quebec independence, but it is a bit tiring to be told "how things are" in the country I have lived in most of my life (with a few short periods spent in France).

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

how often do people in Toronto or Calgary eat poutine, if they even know that such a thing exists, compared to basically every Frenchman that has eaten at least once Alsatian choucroute, which is a favorite dish everywhere in France? this is just one example).

I went to Manitoba in August with my kids to visit my parents. We stopped for a meal at this place and my oldest son ordered a poutine. He claims that it was one of the best he's ever had.

And this is a glorified gas station/motel/restaurant in the middle of nowhere, to be honest.

(and no.. even if the town is called St. Claude, it doesn't count )

[1overcosc]

Poutine is pretty big in Anglo-Canada, and not well known in the US.

I'd say that its one of the rare (only?) examples of a Quebecois thing becoming prevalent in Anglo-Canada without being also becoming prevalent in the US at the same time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

I went to Manitoba in August with my kids to visit my parents. We stopped for a meal at this place and my oldest son ordered a poutine. He claims that it was one of the best he's ever had.

And this is a glorified gas station/motel/restaurant in the middle of nowhere, to be honest.

(and no.. even if the town is called St. Claude, it doesn't count )

And just down the road from Notre-Dame-de-Lourdes.

Likely at least some residual francophone heritage in the area, no?

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And just down the road from Notre-Dame-de-Lourdes.

Likely at least some residual francophone heritage in the area, no?

Yes for sure. My son tried to speak french to the waitress and was met with a dumbfounded stare, however.

Son - "I thought it was a french town"

Me - "Just in name, boy!"

At least the poutine recipe survived!

[Dengler Avenue]

Son - "I thought it was a french town"

Me - "Just in name, boy!"

I wonder if that pretty much sums up every French-sounding town west of Greenstone, ON (except for Saint Boniface, MB).

[JHikka]

Sounds the same as Presque Isle (Presk Aisle) in Maine.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They are part of the country on paper, but they are essentially another society. If you live in the rest of Canada, what difference does it make if Québec is formally part of Canada or isn't? It's not like you would watch their TV stations or read their newspapers. And as for living there, few Canadians from the rest of Canada will ever do it, and moving there is anyway not very different from moving to an independent Québec in a free-border union with Canada (as are EU countries, and as an independent Québec and Canada would be). Perhaps the only difference is social security and pensions (but are these federal or provincial?).

They're a mix of federal and provincial:

EI is federal, CPP is federal except in Québec, which opted to have a matching provincial system (QPP), although Quebecers collect OAS federally.

Then CERB/CRB were federal, as is the child benefit. Student loans are a mix but are now mostly administered federally, and traditional welfare payments are mostly administered provincially.

I think there is an overall trend towards moving social security to the federal government where possible, i.e. the new dental care coverage, enhanced disability support payments, etc. I suppose this could be a counter-offensive to Quebec and prairie province politicians' calls for more autonomy.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They are part of the country on paper, but they are essentially another society. If you live in the rest of Canada, what difference does it make if Québec is formally part of Canada or isn't? It's not like you would watch their TV stations or read their newspapers. And as for living there, few Canadians from the rest of Canada will ever do it, and moving there is anyway not very different from moving to an independent Québec in a free-border union with Canada (as are EU countries, and as an independent Québec and Canada would be). Perhaps the only difference is social security and pensions (but are these federal or provincial?).

Belgium has a similar arrangement to Canada, no? Yet it remains a country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I'm from Quebec and I spent more than 30 years living in that Province. I know it better than you do. I don't care if you are pro Quebec independence, but it is a bit tiring to be told "how things are" in the country I have lived in most of my life (with a few short periods spent in France).

New Brisavoine has been corrected on a number of things about Canada he got wrong, but it's not false that people in France generally move around the regions of at least European France with no qualms, as if they're pretty much "at home" anywhere.

Moreso than most ROC Canadians will move to Quebec. Or Québécois moving to the ROC as well.

I think most of us who are at least somewhat bilingual and also have dabbled in the other culture at least a bit, tend to underestimate just how different things really are for most people, who don't have that same perspective.

It's not a secret that most Canadian corporations have two separate circuits for promotions and transfers: one for Quebec (which sometimes includes places like Caraquet and Edmundston in New Brunswick) and another for the ROC.

I think this illustrates the reality quite evocatively.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

New Brisavoine has been corrected on a number of things about Canada he got wrong, but it's not false that people in France generally move around the regions of at least European France with no qualms, as if they're pretty much "at home" anywhere.

Moreso than most ROC Canadians will move to Quebec. Or Québécois moving to the ROC as well.

Ahem.

(yeah yeah, I'm the minority. Most of my high school friends either stayed near home or moved to Alberta).

I actually worked with a student from Quebec the summer after I graduated from high school, in my tiny SW MB town.

[gunnar777]

Being a montrealer makes me realize how different we are when talking about interprovincial mobility.

While many Canadians come here to study and end up staying, there is also a significant amount of transfer from Toronto, Vancouver, etc. that you would see if you also worked in a dt montreal office.

As an aside, poutine has completely taken over throughout Canada. Toronto just had a poutinefest. You can get it just about anywhere across the country. I may have moved around more than most in this province but damn do people here need to get out more. Couldn't count the number of times I've chatted with a nationalist who's never been to Toronto. Crazy, considering it's just down the road.

They ain't going to Lévis or Gaspé though, so I can understand why my experience in Québec is so different from some of the other posts.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

Being a montrealer makes me realize how different we are when talking about interprovincial mobility.

While many Canadians come here to study and end up staying, there is also a significant amount of transfer from Toronto, Vancouver, etc. that you would see if you also worked in a dt montreal office.
.

I don't know how they do it because those downtown Montreal offices are supposed to function (at least partly) in French. And in reality, a lot of them do. At least partly.

And less than 10% of ROCers (closer to 5% than 10% in fact) can speak French.

Yes, I do know that there are a number of companies in Montreal that function in English as if they were in Toronto or maybe New York, but they're only a small segment of the economy even in Montreal.

Most of the "anglos" in downtown Montreal offices are in fact locally-sourced anglos from Montreal and environs. (And they can generally speak at least some French.)

The stats shows the interprovincial migration into Montreal from the ROC is extremely low when you consider it's the second biggest city in Canada by a longshot.

Even if you were to take Anglo-Montreal in isolation as its own city of several hundred thousand people, its in-migration from the ROC is lower than any other similarly-sized place in Anglo-Canada.

Best Buy and Canadian Tire and Hudson's Bay don't transfer in store managers or even regional managers from Winnipeg or Toronto to Montreal.

By and large, this does not happen.

And thanks for the usual "you guys should get out more" but I am originally from the ROC, was schooled mostly in English, can speak three languages and get by in at least two more, and was actually in Ottawa in Ontario earlier this morning.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

Being a montrealer makes me realize how different we are when talking about interprovincial mobility.

While many Canadians come here to study and end up staying, there is also a significant amount of transfer from Toronto, Vancouver, etc. that you would see if you also worked in a dt montreal office.

Can confirm as a Torontonian. Big presence of Montrealers here too. That's why the country is still together: the MTL-TO business connection is too strong with too many influential companies and families having a stake in it. Those 50+ flights a day between the two cities aren't running empty.

If Canadian confederation was defined by what happens in Montmagny and Ingersoll then, sure, Canada would have ceased to exist a long time ago. But the people eating in St-Hubert in Montmagny are ultimately paying money to a company in Toronto, and the people buying a big gulp from a Circle K in Ingersoll are lining the pockets of a company in Montreal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Ahem.

(yeah yeah, I'm the minority. Most of my high school friends either stayed near home or moved to Alberta).

I actually worked with a student from Quebec the summer after I graduated from high school, in my tiny SW MB town.

Well yeah, my wife and I are both originally from Anglo-Canada. Though francophones.

There is some movement but not really that much. The silos are still there for most people.

"Oh yeah, Canadians move to Quebec just like they move to other provinces" is pure bullshit.

Some smaller demographics do run against the generalizations: francophones from the ROC, Anglo-Quebecers, and to some degree people who are really really bilingual regardless of language.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well yeah, my wife and I are both originally from Anglo-Canada. Though francophones.

There is some movement but not really that much. The silos are still there for most people.

"Oh yeah, Canadians move to Quebec just like they move to other provinces" is pure bullshit.

Some smaller demographics do run against the generalizations: francophones from the ROC, Anglo-Quebecers, and to some degree people who are really really bilingual regardless of language.

A girl from my home town who is 3 years younger than me lives in the Glebe.
Another girl I graduated with works at the House of Commons.
Vanriderfan is from my hometown

It's just a trickle, but there are people from the west that move east, albeit for different reasons.

(They all live in Ottawa.. oops.. Not this guy!)

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"Oh yeah, Canadians move to Quebec just like they move to other provinces" is pure bullshit.

It is hard, but doable. I was 25. Thought I could get by with my high-school French. Nope. Took me about one year to integrate. Marrying a girl from Abitibi helped a lot.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Poutine is pretty big in Anglo-Canada, and not well known in the US.

I'd say that its one of the rare (only?) examples of a Quebecois thing becoming prevalent in Anglo-Canada without being also becoming prevalent in the US at the same time.

It is pretty well know in the US, there is even a restaurant named "The Daily Poutine" on Disney World property:

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.3708...7i13312!8i6656

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know how they do it because those downtown Montreal offices are supposed to function (at least partly) in French. And in reality, a lot of them do. At least partly.

And less than 10% of ROCers (closer to 5% than 10% in fact) can speak French.

Yes, I do know that there are a number of companies in Montreal that function in English as if they were in Toronto or maybe New York, but they're only a small segment of the economy even in Montreal.

Most of the "anglos" in downtown Montreal offices are in fact locally-sourced anglos from Montreal and environs. (And they can generally speak at least some French.)

The stats shows the interprovincial migration into Montreal from the ROC is extremely low when you consider it's the second biggest city in Canada by a longshot.

Even if you were to take Anglo-Montreal in isolation as its own city of several hundred thousand people, its in-migration from the ROC is lower than any other similarly-sized place in Anglo-Canada.

Best Buy and Canadian Tire and Hudson's Bay don't transfer in store managers or even regional managers from Winnipeg or Toronto to Montreal.

By and large, this does not happen.

And thanks for the usual "you guys should get out more" but I am originally from the ROC, was schooled mostly in English, can speak three languages and get by in at least two more, and was actually in Ottawa in Ontario earlier this morning.

I wasn't referring to you specifically, don't take it the wrong way. What I meant more specifically is that Québec has lower mobility than other provinces. QC and regional employers use this to their advantage, knowing that they don't need to be as competitive with salary compared to other Canadian cities, because there's less likelihood their employees would up and leave.

Also, you're not a montrealer, but right now you're talking like like you have more authority on the city than actual montrealers. Particularly the comment about how dt mtl offices function - thanks for the laugh!