Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[zalf]

Originally Posted by WildCake

Yea isn't the struggle on the scheduling piece, where if transit were to plunk more drivers and busses for that 830/930 class start time there would be way too much capacity that is being underused before and after those times? Driver retention is tough right now and split shifts aren't popular.

LRT could alleviate that, even if it were operated by a driver and not automated. One driver, several hundred seats regardless of usage.

Until then, if the Blue Line routes going to St Norbert aren't really full they should divert some of that capacity to U of M Blue routes

Bi-articulated buses could be a stopgap measure, if the route geometry allows it.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by zalf

Bi-articulated buses could be a stopgap measure, if the route geometry allows it.

That would mean not New Flyer. Their current bus design wouldn't allow for that. What you have pictured has the engine transversely mounted behind the driver's side front wheels and drives the second axel, allowing for it to be low floor all the was to the rear of the bus. Current New Flyer design keeps the engine in the rear driving the trailer.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Has anyone else had the misfortune of riding the blue line lately?

Let me put it this way the line is still a failure except it’s because each bus that goes to U of M is insanely overcrowded. My dad works at transit and all the experienced bus drivers are avoiding that line like the plague when scheduling occurs. I don’t even bother taking the blue line and just use the 47 instead because there is seriously no breathing room. In fact when I was coming back from a studio trip at the Forks to U of M my friends and I were at the Main/Assiniboine bus stop and the Blue line didn’t even stop at our station because the bus already filled out (standing room and everything) by the time it reached Union Station. It didn’t even reach the actual Transitway before it reached max capacity isn’t that absolutely bonkers?

Let me remind y’all that this is considering that the new builds on Refinery District are not even connected to Plaza Station, the Fort Rouge TOD is only halfway completed, and the Parker Lands TOD is nonexistent. So these numbers are happening without accounting for thousands of future riders that will utilize this line.

So just as I expected we are simply too big of a city to further pursue BRT and need to start LRT conversion ASAP. The only reason these higher ridership numbers didn’t happen earlier was entirely due to Covid. If we are too build BRT on Main and Portage I would expect similar overcrowding instantly.

So while it’s great that the BRT is seeing these huge numbers and proving many of the posters here wrong about its viability, it has unfortunately worked too well to the point where it’s basically unrideable if you’re carrying anything more then a backpack. I think the city and a lot of the residents have severely underestimated just how many university students take the bus. Especially with the huge increase of international students who predominantly use transit as their main method of transportation.

Idk what do y’all think am I overreacting or is this reason #637473 why this city needs rail transit?

I don't buy the idea that BRT is somehow beyond its capacity, when the blue line's minimum headway is still about 8 minutes, and they don't run all articulated buses during rush hour. the limiting factor here is still drivers and buses, not the underlying infrastucture

[zalf]

^ Running more bendy buses during the rush hours is the lowest hanging fruit for sure. They'll need them anyway as the other BRT lines eventually maybe someday get built out.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

I don't buy the idea that BRT is somehow beyond its capacity, when the blue line's minimum headway is still about 8 minutes, and they don't run all articulated buses during rush hour. the limiting factor here is still drivers and buses, not the underlying infrastucture

The underlying infrastructure is nothing without busses and drivers. That it can't take advantage of higher-capacity vehicles is a limiting factor too.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

So just as I expected we are simply too big of a city to further pursue BRT and need to start LRT conversion ASAP.

The fundamental problem is Winnipeg Transit doesn't understand how to properly utilize its fleet. Lowering headway times is going to do far more than an expensive conversion to LRT to have more seats at even longer intervals.

On my recent trip to Vancouver the Skytrain ran about ever ten minutes but on alternating routes so you have about 20 minutes between runs if you just miss the connection you need.

Speaking in Vancouver, I love how this forum so idolizes the city yet I had the most pedestrian unfriendly experience I have encountered anywhere. My hotel was two blocks from the Skytrain which sounds awesome until you learn it is mid block with a sidewalk but heading out either direction from it the sidewalk is discontinued before you even make it to the first corner. Worse of the two blocks to the Skytrain at least half of that there was no sidewalk. And not continous blocks without a sidewalk or the sidewalk on the opposite side, more like a random 1/2 of each block had sidewalk while the other part had no sidewalk, nothing. Definitely never seen anything like that anywhere.

As for the mythical LRT, as I have long said there is absolutely nothing BRT offers that BRT doesn't. Winnipeg is better off calling up New Flyer in Transcona and getting them working extra shifts to push out some more buses than shutting down the BRT that is clearly meeting the majority of people's exceptions for an expensive and needless LRT retrofit.

[biguc]

Branches, eh. You must have been in Surrey or Richmond.

I'm actually kind of a Vancouver hater but that sounds like a suburbs problem, not something you'd find in the actual city.

I agree that running higher frequency busses would be ideal. But LRT offers plenty that BRT doesn't, including a way around driver shortages via higher capacity vehicles.

[bomberjet]

Vancouver proper is where it's at. The rest is mostly blah suburbs that happen to be in BC.

[DavefromSt.Vital]

I tried the Blue Line to get from Graham out to the Bombers game and back. In general, it was quick, convenient and inexpensive. A few quibbles though:

- Several St. Norbert bound buses came by before one to the U of M did. I realize that classes may have not been in session due to TRC Day or simply the hour of the day, but it was a noticeably longer than expected wait. Further, the driver's eyes went a little wide when I got on in Bombers gear and he asked me if there was a game that night and was surprised when I said yes. Perhaps some better planning is in order.

- I made the mistake of exiting the stadium at Gate 3 and waited for a little bit at the adjacent Blue Line stop with a few others. No buses came. Eventually figured out I was supposed to exit at Gate 4 and use the main transit station. More info on-site would have been helpful.

- What surprised me the most was looking at what was beside the route; kilometres of railway tracks, hydro lines, marsh, etc. Much of it tough to develop. Although not exceptionally wide in places, there is a psychological barrier in accessing the line from anywhere nearby beyond driving to one of the park and ride lots. You really need to get a lot of nearby development to get a lot of people to cross that "barrier". In another thread it has been noted that many cities plop transit stations in the middle of highway expressways making it less friendly to pedestrians. This gave me a similar feel for much of the route.

[biguc]

The best place for transit is in the middle of existing developed areas. Sneaking it along railways and hydro corridors allows service to quickly bypass those areas--but to what end?

The Letellier rail line offered a pretty great way to slip transit through a developed area.

But you know what would have been even better? Just reconfiguring Pembina. Turn one side of the wide-ass stroad boulevard into a street, turn the other into a transit/at route.

If the lost SOV capacity were so bad, just build a mini expressway along the hydro corridor. Roads are the things that belong out of the way.

[esquire]

I don't think the TOD aspect of SWBRT is necessarily a lost cause. There is a not-insubstantial amount of development already built along the phase 1 segment. Maybe not quite to Hong Kong levels, but by Winnipeg standards it's pretty good. And of course there are many pre-existing homes that are within an easy walk of those stations. There is still also a lot of unrealized TOD potential, particularly once you get closer to Confusion Corner and points north.

Phase 2, the infamous dogleg, is maybe not quite so great. But realistically, how much of a difference would BRT have even made along that stretch of Pembina in any event? There is some development happening there as we all know, but in spite of that Pembina won't really take on a more urban character... it will always be pretty stroady. Meanwhile, the dogleg could still turn into something more than it is now, but for now it accommodates the purpose of moving large numbers of people between major hubs (the packed buses thebasketballgeek has mentioned is proof of that).

So I don't know, maybe I'm reaching a bit and struggling to put lipstick on a pig. But I don't think all is necessarily lost. I still think the dogleg was an acceptable compromise given the limitations that Winnipeg has to operate under.

[thebasketballgeek]

The thing for the Dogleg is that despite having its existing barriers (Hydro, wetland, industry) each station still is next to houses, although primarily low density.

What they really have to do which for some inexplicable reason hasn’t been done is significantly up-zone the south side of Beaumont, and the east sides of Seel, Clarence, and Chevrier because quite frankly that whole Beaumont and Maybank neighborhoods really needs significant densification anyway. The housing stock is falling apart, it’s in a central location being the halfway point between Downtown and U of M, and allowing single-family houses next to a transit line is a joke.

Also, east side of Plaza is long overdue for serious redevelopment. God what even is our city planning department doing anyway?

Despite all of this the Blue line remains packed. Imagine how much higher transit ridership could be if the people running the city had common sense or even looked at a scope outside of North America.

[damnedmenno]

The dog leg is something that should never have happened IMO. I recall seeing the reports that justified the dog leg, comparing the number riders with to if it went down Pembina itself (taking into consideration potential TOD). The numbers for Pembina were higher but they somehow justified it by saving about $10 million in costs (was a small percentage of the the end cost) and claiming buses could run faster because there was nothing there .

Even though all may not be entirely lost, it was a huge wasted opportunity; especially seeing some of the development now happening along Pembina. It really doesn't serve most of Pembina where there are 30,000 plus people living in a medium to high density area (which would have even more incentive to make denser!). Done down Pembina could have even helped convince those residents to use the transit instead of their car. Seeing how ineffectual the rapid transit currently is, really makes it hard to sell the idea to create more in a city so dependent on cars.

[Highwayman]

I see our homeless are already setting up shop for the winter in the same bus shacks as last year. Wouldn't it just be easier to take an empty parking lots and fill it with his shacks so we can have ours back? Or will city hall and transit do nothing as usual ? IMO and I have no hate against homeless. They need a home. Get them one already. It doesn't have to be an apartment. It could be a container idea like something floated here before. But our bus shacks need to be take back. And if not. Remove them all . If transit riders cannot use them then get rid of them. Maybe put up wind breaker for riders. No roof though. No door. And definitely no heater.

[Highwayman]

Originally Posted by damnedmenno

The dog leg is something that should never have happened IMO. I recall seeing the reports that justified the dog leg, comparing the number riders with to if it went down Pembina itself (taking into consideration potential TOD). The numbers for Pembina were higher but they somehow justified it by saving about $10 million in costs (was a small percentage of the the end cost) and claiming buses could run faster because there was nothing there .

Even though all may not be entirely lost, it was a huge wasted opportunity; especially seeing some of the development now happening along Pembina. It really doesn't serve most of Pembina where there are 30,000 plus people living in a medium to high density area (which would have even more incentive to make denser!). Done down Pembina could have even helped convince those residents to use the transit instead of their car. Seeing how ineffectual the rapid transit currently is, really makes it hard to sell the idea to create more in a city so dependent on cars.

The dog leg was the better route. There as no space running behind the small business on Pembina and they are already served by busses. You miss the point of RAPID transit. If they went your route which would have had to deal with the railway main line. Not and easy task. Home would h s had to be demolished. But that RT line wld have just turned into a slow bus lane.

It's like Duff's Ditch. Everyone laughed. And now....lol

The RT line works fast to get to the stadium and university which really was the main idea. Apartments and condos are finally coming up along it. The Parker lands debacle is one huge hold up. And fyi. There is a nicr 2 kms section running right behind Pembina highway. Guess what m people take thr regular bus on Pembina.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by Highwayman

I see our homeless are already setting up shop for the winter in the same bus shacks as last year. Wouldn't it just be easier to take an empty parking lots and fill it with his shacks so we can have ours back? Or will city hall and transit do nothing as usual ? IMO and I have no hate against homeless. They need a home. Get them one already. It doesn't have to be an apartment. It could be a container idea like something floated here before. But our bus shacks need to be take back. And if not. Remove them all . If transit riders cannot use them then get rid of them. Maybe put up wind breaker for riders. No roof though. No door. And definitely no heater.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Highwayman

The dog leg was the better route. There as no space running behind the small business on Pembina and they are already served by busses. You miss the point of RAPID transit. If they went your route which would have had to deal with the railway main line. Not and easy task. Home would h s had to be demolished. But that RT line wld have just turned into a slow bus lane.

It's like Duff's Ditch. Everyone laughed. And now....lol

The RT line works fast to get to the stadium and university which really was the main idea. Apartments and condos are finally coming up along it. The Parker lands debacle is one huge hold up. And fyi. There is a nicr 2 kms section running right behind Pembina highway. Guess what m people take thr regular bus on Pembina.

I hate to be this guy, but I do think you're (perhaps intentionally) also missing part of the point of rapid transit. One of the biggest reasons to have rapid transit is when you have super high volume routes and corridors which reach capacity and beyond and need additional servicing. Having a busway is fine for getting places fast, but if it does not do much to alleviate the existing bus lines it really has not served its purpose. In addition, it should have been built from the start as a rail line, if indeed we can justify the cost of building dedicated infrastructure. RT should not only be fast, but it should be able to handle large volumes of riders, have high frequency, and serve corridors which already exist. We know where the demand is, let's not try and re-invent the wheel. The dogleg route, while fast, is a really dumb move in the long term. It's the worst of both worlds wherein it didn't cost that much less to put in, doesn't serve the existing demand conveniently, and isn't really faster in any way over the rail line alignment. This debate is a bit of a misdirection though, there should have been more pembina centric options considered which were not. Cut and cover tunnel would be one, elevated would be another. IMO (humbly) the discussion missed the point from the get-go. If we were serious about having a proper functioning RT system, serious options would have been proposed from the start (and if built, I guarantee that we would be seeing even more development on that stretch of pembina).

[esquire]

I can see the arguments for both sides, but let's face it... we're stuck with what we've got. And it is possible that we could have our cake and eat it too... there is some pretty impressive development happening along Pembina, and as SWBRT phase 2 matures, we could see development materialize along that route as well.

[trueviking]

i defended the dogleg when it happened but now I think it was a fatal mistake....if you need football field sized parking lots around your transit stations, you have done something very wrong....it should have run down pembina highway, where all the places people want to go are, instead of through big empty fields.....i'm glad this will be the last one like that.

its not only useless as a bus route, its mostly useless as a bike route...unless you are going to the bomber game....or are just going for a recreational bike ride....unless I am actually going to the end (university) it is useless...so far away from any destination I need to get to that it is just easier to ride on the sidewalk and disjointed bike lanes of Pembina.

whenever i ride that way and invariably see one lonely person sitting at one of the giant transit stations built for thousands of people, i think to myself, how did that person even get there? Where did they come from? Do they happen to live in that house in the distance?

[trueviking]

the only TOD on phase 1 is the fort rouge yards thing, whatever it is called now, but it is designed with its back to the transit and is a typical car-oriented development. It would have happened regardless, because it was a nice open field in a mature neighbourhood...those transit stations are always empty and inconsequential to the development....its transit adjacent development.