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  #9041  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 3:46 AM
Winnipegger Winnipegger is offline
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I don't think many here understand the local political climate when it comes to infrastructure investment. Everyone here (myself at times included) act like it's some big obvious no-brainer that we should just upgrade the ring road to be a limited access, American-style freeway, and all our transportation problems would be solved. People also act like the concept of a limited access ring road is unheard of at the political decision making level, as if mayor and council aren't aware that our road network is stuck in the 1970s.

The hard truth is that yes, they are aware, and no, they don't want to do anything substantial about it. Why? Because it would be insanely costly at this point and there are ten million other municipal assets being held together with popsicle sticks and duct tape that it simply isn't a political priority.

How much do we all think it would take to fully build out the ring road and make it fully limited access? $2 billion maybe? That gives us $500 million for each of the four sides, which can pay for lane widening, access roads, and interchanges. Let's just PRETEND for a moment that the Province and Feds are willing to cover 1/3 of the cost each. This is highly unlikely since the Liberals at the federal level aren't too interested in massive road projects in an era of climate awareness and decarbonization, and the Provincial government can't even make a single highway limited access, nevermind find the money for the City to do it. But let's PRETEND for a moment. That means the City still has to cough up almost $700 million to get it done. If the entire thing was debt financed, we'd be looking at roughly $42 million in debt payments for 30 years for this one project alone. That's a little more than the current debt payments for all tax-supported (not utilities) infrastructure. So we'd be doubling our non-utility debt for this one project. Council would have to raise taxes by 7% just to scrounge together enough pennies to make the annual payments. For the record, property tax increases have averaged 2% per year over the last 30 years. So 7% would be a significant deviation for a single project. And if the feds and province don't want to fund this? Triple that.

This assumes there is the political will to actually do this. But there isn't, and likely ever won't be. For every SSP highway fanatic in this city, there are 10 more environmentalists/urban planners/mode shift advocates/transit keeners and so on that will tell council adding more lanes and interchanges is a waste of money.

Then council has to contend with the main sewage treatment plant needing $2 billion in upgrades, planning for rapid transit for the future, electrification of the transit fleet, entire neighborhoods existing without community centers and firestations while new neighborhoods are in the planning process (we just can't keep up), inner-city facilities crumbling, combined sewer replacements, exploding police and fire overtime budgets, a $7 billion infrastructure deficit... the list can go on and on.

As much as we'd like to see it, no politician in their right mind is going to try and take a crack at creating a limited access inner-ring road for the sake of making Winnipeg a mini Houston, it simply doesn't make sense. The fact is that Winnipeggers can still get from Charleswood to Transcona, or from River Park South to Amber Trails, or from Sage Creek to the Airport, in reasonable times most parts of the day, without the need to spend $2 billion.

It just doesn't make sense in a city that has been so fiscally constrained for so long. Other cities can invest in infrastructure because they've taxed their base a lot higher for a lot longer period of time, and have more tools to do so. Winnipeg, not so much. The municipal government is poor by choice, not by necessity, in my view.
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  #9042  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 4:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Winnipegger View Post
I don't think many here understand the local political climate when it comes to infrastructure investment. Everyone here (myself at times included) act like it's some big obvious no-brainer that we should just upgrade the ring road to be a limited access, American-style freeway, and all our transportation problems would be solved. People also act like the concept of a limited access ring road is unheard of at the political decision making level, as if mayor and council aren't aware that our road network is stuck in the 1970s.

The hard truth is that yes, they are aware, and no, they don't want to do anything substantial about it. Why? Because it would be insanely costly at this point and there are ten million other municipal assets being held together with popsicle sticks and duct tape that it simply isn't a political priority.
I disagree.

If cost was an issue, why did Manitoba spends billions of dollars on Bipole 3, building it on the wrong side of Lake Winnipeg, when it could have saved billions to to construct it on the East Side, where nearly every single engineer told them to?

Why did the government shell out $200 million for a new stadium. I realise the CanadInns stadium eventually needed to be replaced, but it should not take precedence over important infrastructure needs.

Why did the government shell out roughly $400 million to build a new museum at the Forks, when it was not necessary, and it bee embroiled in controversy even before it broke ground?

Cost is not the issue. It's the incompetence of the government, who keep putting it on the back burner for decades. There is zero excuse for not having a functional LRT route from downtown to the U of M.

It defies logic that some of the major thoroughfares in the city, especially Kenaston are not being built like a major highway, as it is going to extend to Hwy 75, and is going to be the main route to Centreport from the US. Why did they build Sterling Lyon at grade? Why did they build strip malls, and roads to residential and commercial areas that intersect with Kensaton?

And why did they plan the route to bisect Waverley West? The city clearly has no idea what it is doing. Even Regina now has 2 ring roads. Both are expressways. A city with 1/3 of our population, puts us to shame in infrastructure. It should be noted that their version of Centreport has attracted a greater amount of businesses as well.
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  #9043  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 5:54 AM
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If we actually had four or five billion dollars to spend on Winnipeg, shaving a few minutes off the drive across town is very low on the list of issues that should be addressed. Of all the issues Winnipeg faces, hard to make an argument to spend generational money on a road.

Imagine how transformative an investment like that would be. Imagine wasting it on a road.
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  #9044  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 6:21 AM
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The problem is the perimeter highway should have been done long time ago , say 1 or 2 interchanges every 5 years even 10 years it was built in the 70s ! The other roads when planned or extended should have had flyovers or diamond interchanges done at the time of being built , the government wastes enough money on nonsense year after year that 1 diamond or flyover is a drop in the bucket ! I think there has never been the political will provincially or municipally to have infrastructure as big priority, maybe with Stephen Juba but that’s before my time . You would think at least CentrePort which is supposed to have truck traffic eventually bypass Headingly would not have had 2 signalized intersections but even that was done the cheap way . Forget just the time wasted idling at the at grade intersections , the higher speed roads are also accidents waiting to happen compared to free flowing roads especially in the winter months .
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  #9045  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 3:26 PM
EdwardTH EdwardTH is online now
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Originally Posted by optimusREIM View Post
Crazy how far behind Winnipeg is when compared to just about every other city in the developed world.
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Originally Posted by rivercity View Post
And not just behind in terms of road infrastructure.. in everything. Public transit, active transit, etc etc. We need to go all in on something.. instead of half assing everything.
I mean, yeah it should be better. But y'all still really need some perspective. Stop trying to compare Winnipeg to cities that are 5x bigger.

Cities with a comparable metro population are places like Dayton OH and Knoxville TN. I can assure you that Dayton and Knoxville do not have superior public transit or active transportation lol.

Sure they have freeways, those are funded by huge piles of state & federal interstate funding that we'll never see here.

The gloom-and-doom inferiority complex stuff is getting sooo old.
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  #9046  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 3:50 PM
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Sure, I get your point in like for like population comparisons in the states.. but we are the 8th largest city in this particular country, a provincial capital and a regional hub. Drayton is the 73rd largest in the US.
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  #9047  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
If we actually had four or five billion dollars to spend on Winnipeg, shaving a few minutes off the drive across town is very low on the list of issues that should be addressed. Of all the issues Winnipeg faces, hard to make an argument to spend generational money on a road.

Imagine how transformative an investment like that would be. Imagine wasting it on a road.
Converting the Yellowhead Highway in Edmonton to make it a freeway, with no at-grade intersections will cost the government approx. $1 billion.

They will be converting a dozen at grade intersections to off ramps, and flyovers.

It's more costly to do this on the Yellowhead, considering there is less room to manoeuvre, and considered all the pipelines, cables, and utilities they ahve to dig up. For South Perimeter, this will not be as expensive, considering there is far fewer underground utilities that need rerouted. There is also the added bonus of not having to really dig up the roads.

There are also fewer interchanges. McGillivary, Hwy 330, Brady Road, Kenaston, Waverley south, St.Mary's, St.Anne's, and Plessis.

Once again, all Manitoba had to do was built Bipole 3 on the right damn side of Lake Winnipeg, and we could have had two ring roads, a freeway along Kenaston, and 2 LRT lines, and still have extra money to spend.
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  #9048  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by EdwardTH View Post
I mean, yeah it should be better. But y'all still really need some perspective. Stop trying to compare Winnipeg to cities that are 5x bigger.
.
Edmonton and Calgary are about 1.5 x the size of Winnipeg. How about smaller cities like:


-Regina (two ring roads)
-Saskatoon (freeways)
-Kitchener (LRT & Expressways)
-Red Deer (QE2 + future ring road)
-Grand Forks (I-29)
-Fargo (two interstates)

Last edited by BlackDog204; Mar 3, 2023 at 4:29 PM.
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  #9049  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackDog204 View Post
I disagree.

If cost was an issue, why did Manitoba spends billions of dollars on Bipole 3, building it on the wrong side of Lake Winnipeg, when it could have saved billions to to construct it on the East Side, where nearly every single engineer told them to?

Why did the government shell out $200 million for a new stadium. I realise the CanadInns stadium eventually needed to be replaced, but it should not take precedence over important infrastructure needs.

Why did the government shell out roughly $400 million to build a new museum at the Forks, when it was not necessary, and it bee embroiled in controversy even before it broke ground?
Those three questions have the same answer. NDP.
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  #9050  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by EdwardTH View Post

The gloom-and-doom inferiority complex stuff is getting sooo old.
Could not agree more.
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  #9051  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 6:35 PM
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Those three questions have the same answer. speNDP.
fixed
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  #9052  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 6:41 PM
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Those three questions have the same answer. NDP.
That was a sad day for the province.

For the NDP lie, and state that it "needs" to be UN World Heritage Site on the East side of the lake. They never mention that UNESCO had stated that they were not opposed to a hydro line cutting through the forest.

Then the NDP say they are doing it as to "not encroach on Native Reserves." Turns out the West side had 15 reserves they line encroached upon, while the East side had 16. Not a big difference.

No idea why they made such a poor choice, considering it took hundreds of extra miles to build on the west side, and it also bled off more power due to the length of the bipole line.

My guess is it provided more jobs for Selinger's cronies.
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  #9053  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 6:42 PM
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Those three questions have the same answer. NDP.
BINGO! and someone remind me why anyone is considering to vote for them?
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  #9054  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rivercity View Post
Sure, I get your point in like for like population comparisons in the states.. but we are the 8th largest city in this particular country, a provincial capital and a regional hub. Drayton is the 73rd largest in the US.

Actually, we are the #6 in city population.


Winnipeg is #7 in Metro area population.
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  #9055  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 6:48 PM
bomberjet bomberjet is online now
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A limited access highway, based on TAC standards, has intersections. As the name states, access is limited. So there are no private drives, access points every X km's. Limited access does not have to be interchanges.
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  #9056  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 6:55 PM
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Those three questions have the same answer. NDP.

Report points finger at NDP interference as major factor in Manitoba Hydro cost overruns


A long-awaited report on a new Manitoba transmission line says the previous government’s own obstinance was a primary driver for billions in cost overruns.

The Economic Review of Bipole III and Keeyask Report, released Friday, points to the NDP’s insistence the transmission line run down the western side of the province as a major reason why the project went from $9.7 billion to $13.4 billion.

The two projects were built over the last 15 years and Manitoba Hydro’s debt has tripled in that time to more than $23 billion.

The Crown corporation has applied to increase customer rates by up to eight per cent in recent years to pay down some of the debt, but provincial regulators have approved much lower increases.

The review describes “the genesis of the Keeyask and Bipole III projects deriving from the vision of Government that hydroelectricity is ‘Manitoba’s oil’ and therefore a source of transformational economic development driven by exports,” reads a release.

“However, Government became ‘locked in’ on the projects, leading to direct Government action to place constraints on the regulatory and approval processes for them.”


The report shows that the routing of Bipole III down the western side added at least $400 million to the cost, while some evidence suggests had it run down the eastern side, it would have avoided $1 billion in costs.

At the time the government said the move was necessary to protect pristine boreal forest in the east, respect Indigenous land use, and to avoid raising environmental concerns among potential U.S. customers.


“Potential options were excluded and this – combined with Government action to constrain the regulatory and approval processes – drove the projects to approval and construction start dates on inflexible timelines and with incomplete analysis,” the report says.

This is far from the only problem found by the report author, former Saskatchewan premier Brad Wall.

Others included the government agreeing to energy export contracts that meant the Public Utilities Board, which sets rates and approves projects, effectively had no choice but to approve the project so that Hydro could meet its contractual obligations.

“Manitoba Hydro’s submissions during proceedings before the Public Utilities Board were characterized by rapidly shifting economic assumptions and emerging facts or options that were either ignored or explained away in the rush to approval,” writes Wall.

“Some of these core assumptions were abandoned just months after approval was granted for the projects.”

The report also says the former government did little to prevent costs from spiralling and was more focused on getting the projects completed.

“The commissioner saw no evidence of interest or proactive outreach on the part of the former elected Government of Manitoba to provide oversight, accountability, and overall leadership on the Keeyask and Bipole III projects,” Wall’s report states.

“As the costs of the projects grew and the potential impact on Manitoba Hydro became apparent, there is no evidence that the former government engaged with the (Manitoba Hydro board) or provided any direction.”

The report also says Manitoba Hydro officials and the former NDP government overestimated the potential for export sales.

When the government began pushing the projects, it said hydroelectricity could do for Manitoba what oil had done for Alberta. But energy prices softened as the use of natural gas and fracking expanded in the United States.

Domestic demand was also overstated, Wall said. Instead of Keeyask being needed as early as 2019, its energy may only have been needed a decade from now, Wall said. The generating station started operating earlier this month.

After the project was completed, the report found that there were no considerations made for the potential impact on Manitoba’s finances in the future.

“The Review found no interaction, presentation, discussion, or document that showed that the input of the Treasury Board Secretariat or the Department of Finance was sought or heard in the planning or execution of the project plans.”

When the Opposition Tories raised issues about the western route in 2007, the government said export sales would pay for any extra costs.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7664756/r...yask-projects/
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  #9057  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackDog204 View Post
Converting the Yellowhead Highway in Edmonton to make it a freeway, with no at-grade intersections will cost the government approx. $1 billion.

They will be converting a dozen at grade intersections to off ramps, and flyovers.

It's more costly to do this on the Yellowhead, considering there is less room to manoeuvre, and considered all the pipelines, cables, and utilities they ahve to dig up. For South Perimeter, this will not be as expensive, considering there is far fewer underground utilities that need rerouted. There is also the added bonus of not having to really dig up the roads.

There are also fewer interchanges. McGillivary, Hwy 330, Brady Road, Kenaston, Waverley south, St.Mary's, St.Anne's, and Plessis.

Once again, all Manitoba had to do was built Bipole 3 on the right damn side of Lake Winnipeg, and we could have had two ring roads, a freeway along Kenaston, and 2 LRT lines, and still have extra money to spend.
The 3kms long expansion of Kenaston alone will cost $3/4 - 1 billion.

you guys really measure your city on how many freeways it has? Who cares. Freeways just exacerbate sprawl. total waste of money that we don't have. We have much greater needs than spending generational money on shaving a few minutes off your drive across town.
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  #9058  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 7:03 PM
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so.....The report shows that the routing of Bipole III down the western side added $400 million to the cost....big deal.

seems like decent reasons.....to protect pristine boreal forest in the east, respect Indigenous land use, and to avoid raising environmental concerns among potential U.S. customers.
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  #9059  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 7:06 PM
bomberjet bomberjet is online now
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We didn't need a report to tell us that. It was known all along. The reasoning was to avoid the east side and potential UNESCO thingy. The east side was the shorter route, provided greater separation from BiPole 1/2 in case of disaster and was the cheaper route. Bu the NDP went west anyways.

Also I don't think the government shelled out $400 million for the museum.
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  #9060  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2023, 7:07 PM
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I don't really get it either.

Sask. blew their wad on a massive highway project - good for them. I usually still take the old route thru Regina anyway, because the new bypass has 0 services, and somehow seems like it takes longer anyway.

Do people in Alberta lose their mind like this because of the way the TCH goes thru Medicine hat? Or the other lights and 80kmph speed zones on the TCH outside Calgary?
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