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  #221  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2022, 2:11 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Very misleading. The fulcrum of jobs is between the two. And the workers certainly come from both. Read up on the armada of company buses (augmenting regular transit) sometime.
The center of gravity of Silicon Valley is a little north of San Jose, yes. But SF is its own jobs center that is hyper centered on the city of San Francisco.
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  #222  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2022, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Very misleading. The fulcrum of jobs is between the two. And the workers certainly come from both. Read up on the armada of company buses (augmenting regular transit) sometime.
This isn't really accurate.

Yes, the peak tech is between San Jose and San Francisco, but that's like saying peak Wall Street is between Midtown Manhattan and Philly, or peak Hollywood is between LA and Santa Barbara. True, but misleading.

Peak tech is directly adjacent to San Jose proper, in San Jose metro, just a few miles from downtown San Jose, and nowhere near downtown SF. The suburbs adjacent to SF proper (Daly City, Colma, Brisbane, Pacifica) have minimal or no tech presence. The suburbs adjacent to San Jose proper are peak tech. The traditional elite SF suburbs (Mill Valley, Hillsborough, Piedmont) aren't tech suburbs. The traditional elite SJ suburbs (Los Altos Hills, Saratoga, Los Gatos) are tech suburbs. The traditional SF elite neighborhoods (Pacific Heights and equivalents) have no direct relationship with tech, and are still thick with traditional high-paying industries (medicine, law, consulting, etc.). No such thing in San Jose, where tech rules like autos rule Detroit.

The Google buses and equivalents are due to more recent preference for urban living. Not really related to where FAANG and equivalents are actually situated in Bay Area. Of course, more recently, a shit-ton of tech firms have opened in downtown SF, but this is true in urban environments nationwide, but the vast majority of the traditional Bay Area heavyweights are in San Jose and environs.
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  #223  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2022, 2:58 PM
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^ The key qualifier you keep using is “traditional”. Traditionally yes, you are right, but as others have mentioned it’s… a pretty outdated view. That’s not the case anymore and it hasn’t been for the past decade. There are tons of tech execs now in Hillsborough and Pac Heights and the like. And the tech offices in SF aren’t like tech offices in other city downtowns. They’re either HQs (Salesforce, Twitter, Yelp, DoorDash, Dropbox, Instacart, Slack, Pinterest, Twitch, Fitbit, Airbnb, Uber, Lyft, Niantic, Ubisoft, Zynga or basically 2nd HQs (Meta).

SF’s industries are obviously more diversified than SJ’s but tech is so dominant that it has completely blurred the margins which were “traditionally” well defined.
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  #224  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2022, 3:18 PM
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^ The key qualifier you keep using is “traditional”. Traditionally yes, you are right, but as others have mentioned it’s… a pretty outdated view. That’s not the case anymore and it hasn’t been for the past decade. There are tons of tech execs now in Hillsborough and Pac Heights and the like. And the tech offices in SF aren’t like tech offices in other city downtowns. They’re either HQs (Salesforce, Twitter, Yelp, DoorDash, Dropbox, Instacart, Slack, Pinterest, Twitch, Fitbit, Airbnb, Uber, Lyft, Niantic, Ubisoft, Zynga or basically 2nd HQs (Meta).

SF’s industries are obviously more diversified than SJ’s but tech is so dominant that it has completely blurred the margins which were “traditionally” well defined.
Plus all the other companies who have a large presence in SF but not HQ'd there. For instance, Amazon Web Services (where I work) apparently has 4,900 employees in San Francisco, at least according to our HR tool I use, but it's possible that is just their "home office" not that the reside in SF. I report into our Arlington, VA office but I live in Minnesota.
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  #225  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2022, 3:32 PM
Chisouthside Chisouthside is offline
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Yeah there's plenty of tech companies in SF and plenty of workers travel both way between SF and Silicon Valley, but SF is def not silicon valley. Silicon valley has a particular history, cultural and geographic feel specific to the South Bay. I would say the epi center of SV is located in the area where North Side San Jose, Cupertino, Santa Clara, Mountain View and Sunnyvale meet.
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  #226  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2022, 5:39 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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Ok, the tech fulcrum is further south than I suggested (though the office fulcrum shifts things back north a bit). It's still a continuous job market, and the county line (separating "metros") isn't relevant to how it works on the ground.

Last edited by mhays; Jul 22, 2022 at 6:02 PM.
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  #227  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 6:57 AM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Ok, the tech fulcrum is further south than I suggested (though the office fulcrum shifts things back north a bit). It's still a continuous job market, and the county line (separating "metros") isn't relevant to how it works on the ground.
I know just how much we all love personal anecdotes, but my brother lived in Vacaville and worked a San Jose / Sacramento office split for almost a decade. For people working in tech and tech-adjacent jobs, the Bay Area is a single market. With ever-increasing job connections to Sacramento via Solano County.
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  #228  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 10:35 PM
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I don't think anyone (at least not me) ever claimed that San Jose isn't part of a singular metro area; it clearly is. Rather, I made the argument that it exists as a distinct regional entity (no different than what North/Central Jersey is to NYC) that can stand on its own. The biggest tech players — Google, Apple, Intel, HP, and Cisco ("Fortune 75") — have their headquarters in Silicon Valley, which also happens to be the home of one of the world's most prestigious universities. And with a population of 2 million, Santa Clara County is a few hundred thousand people short of metro Austin and roughly the same size as Cleveland and Nashville. In other words, despite SF having a far superior urban core and name brand recognition, SJ doesn't play second fiddle at all because it's the region's economic engine and in isolation would still be a thriving metro area. It doesn't really depend on SF's influence for anything, whereas "Silicon Valley" itself is a metonym for the tech industry and to a certain extent the entire Bay Area, since tech wealth can be seen everywhere. The hippies are long gone.

By contrast, the balance of power between Washington and Baltimore is unquestionably far more lopsided. While Baltimore has the richer history and legacy Philly-style neighborhoods, DC's been the nation's capital continuously since 1800 and its urban fabric is intact — making it feel like the grander and more prosperous city (which it is). Culturally, Baltimore is more of an independent entity compared to SJ, but it's less self-sufficient and more reliant on its "name brand" neighbor to keep afloat.
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Last edited by Quixote; Jul 23, 2022 at 10:47 PM.
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  #229  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2022, 11:44 PM
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Fortune 500 companies, SJ (Santa Clara County) vs. SF MSA

SJ (Santa Clara County) — 19

Apple
Google
Intel
HP
Cisco
TD Synnex
Netflix
Broadcom
Nvidia
PayPal
Applied Materials
Western Digital
Advanced Micro Devices
Adobe
Lam Research
eBay
Intuit
KLA
Sanmina


SF MSA — 17

Chevron
Meta
Wells Fargo
Gilead Sciences
Salesforce
Visa
PG&E
Ross Stores
Block
Uber
Gap
Franklin Resources
Williams-Sonoma
Open Door
Clorox
Equinix
Robert Half


As you can see, the number of F500 companies (all of them tech — software and hardware) concentrated in Santa Clara County is higher than the entire SF MSA. Six of the 17 headquartered in SF MSA are tech-related, the remaining ones being more legacy companies.

This is looking through a very narrow lens of course, but I think it does lend credence to the more "traditional" narrative of tech and start-ups being mostly synonymous with San Jose, while SF MSA is more blue-chip/white-shoe.

Tech being what largely defines and drives the Bay Area economy, how exactly does that make SF so much more "dominant" than SJ?
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  #230  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2022, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Chisouthside View Post
Yeah there's plenty of tech companies in SF and plenty of workers travel both way between SF and Silicon Valley, but SF is def not silicon valley. Silicon valley has a particular history, cultural and geographic feel specific to the South Bay. I would say the epi center of SV is located in the area where North Side San Jose, Cupertino, Santa Clara, Mountain View and Sunnyvale meet.
SF is definitely part of "Silicon Valley" when using the term to refer to the Bay Area's tech industry as a whole...which is a thing that many people have been doing, for decades.

But if you want to use the definition that roughly conflates "Silicon Valley" with the "Santa Clara Valley", then yes you can say that SF is not part of "Silicon Valley".

But by that logic, a massive chunk of the Bay Area's tech industry, including a lot of stuff that people typically think of when they think of "silicon valley" (youtube and twitter, for example), is also excluded from "Silicon Valley".

The tech industry is spread all over the place, with the majority located along the peninsula stretching between SJ and SF, as well as within the two cities themselves.

To help make my point, here's a list from Wikipedia of Bay Area tech companies based somewhere other than the Santa Clara Valley/county/south bay (as of 2020):

AMAX Information Technologies – Fremont
Antec – Fremont
Asus – Fremont
Digidesign – Daly City
Dust Networks – Hayward
Fitbit – San Francisco
Jawbone – San Francisco
Keysight - Santa Rosa
Lam Research (331) – Fremont
Logitech – Newark
Monster Cable Products – Brisbane
Silicon Graphics – Fremont (acquired by Rackable Systems)
Synnex (130) – Fremont
THX – San Rafael
Capcom U.S.A. - San Francisco
Dolby Laboratories – San Francisco
Electronic Arts – Redwood City
Industrial Light & Magic – San Francisco
Kerner Optical – San Rafael
Lucasfilm Animation – San Rafael (Lucas Valley)
Niantic – San Francisco
Pandora Radio – Oakland
Philo – San Francisco
Pixar – Emeryville
Roblox – San Mateo
Sega of America – San Francisco
Skywalker Sound – San Rafael (Lucas Valley)
Sony Interactive Entertainment (PlayStation) – San Mateo
Ubisoft – San Francisco
Zynga – San Francisco
Airbnb – San Francisco
Ask.com – Oakland
Box – Redwood City
Craigslist – San Francisco
DoorDash - San Francisco
Dropbox - San Francisco
Ebates – San Francisco
Evernote - Redwood City
Meta (46) – Menlo Park
Glassdoor - Mill Valley
Instacart – San Francisco
Lyft – San Francisco
Pinterest – San Francisco
Poshmark - Redwood City
Salesforce.com (190) – San Francisco
Slack Technologies – San Francisco
Poll Everywhere - San Francisco
Postmates - San Francisco
SurveyMonkey – San Mateo
Tripping.com – San Francisco
Twitch – San Francisco
Twitter – San Francisco
Uber (228) – San Francisco
Wikimedia Foundation – San Francisco
Workday – Pleasanton
Yelp – San Francisco
YouTube – San Bruno - subsidiary of Alphabet Inc.
Zendesk - San Francisco
Zoosk – San Francisco
Bleacher Report – San Francisco
MobiTV – Emeryville
TubeMogul – Emeryville
AppDynamics – San Francisco
Autodesk – San Rafael
Box - Redwood City
DocuSign - San Francisco
Dropbox - San Francisco
Genesys – Daly City
GitHub - San Francisco
Neo4j – San Mateo
NetSuite – San Mateo
New Relic – San Francisco
North Beach Games - San Rafael[3]
Piggybackr – San Francisco
Pivotal Software – San Francisco
Pyze – Redwood City
Splunk – San Francisco
Sybase – Dublin

So if someone were to refer to these companies as being part of "Silicon Valley"...would you correct them? Speaking for myself at least, as a lifelong Bay Area resident, I wouldn't.
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  #231  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2022, 2:43 AM
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The definition of Silicon Valley has evolved in the decades since the term was first coined. Tech has spread into SF and the east bay which weren't really traditionally Silicon Valley.
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  #232  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 2:08 AM
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The Bay area has the most balkanized transit. Caltrain, BART, ACE, Muni, SamTrans,VTA, ACTransit, Contra Costa transit (or whatever it's called), Golden Gate transit, to name a few....
The balkanization of transit is the only thing that the Bay Area has in comparison with NY plus each transit agency serves a particular area. I don't want to explain here, but if you've been to the Bay Area, you'll understand why each transit agency is split up like that. It actually makes the area more interesting IMHO!
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  #233  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 2:13 AM
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Hartford is much more in NYC's orbit than in Boston's orbit.

Baltimore benefits from proximity to DC. It's actually a very prosperous, highly educated metro, with a huge number of federal/contractor/research jobs, obviously due to proximity to DC. It's one of the wealthiest, best educated metros in the U.S. People need to look past the ghetto porn. Even DC proper had pretty terrible ghetto porn 20-30 years ago. I remember Benning Road in the 1990's. Horrible. But DC has been super-wealthy and educated since forever.

Hartford, BTW, is even wealthier and better educated than Baltimore. Another metro that has a reputation that doesn't match reality.
Hartford is on it's own orbit, not NYC's and not Boston's orbit. It does share a CSA with Springfield MSA called the Knowledge Corridor. You must be mistaken the cities of Stamford, Bridgeport, Waterbury, and New Haven, which are a part of the NYC MSA!
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  #234  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 3:07 AM
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Hartford isn't in the NYC MSA--it's not even in the NYC CSA. It forms its own CSA. "Knowledge Corridor" is a concept, not something measured by the Census Bureau or Office of Management and Budget.
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  #235  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 4:36 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
Hartford is on it's own orbit, not NYC's and not Boston's orbit. It does share a CSA with Springfield MSA called the Knowledge Corridor. You must be mistaken the cities of Stamford, Bridgeport, Waterbury, and New Haven, which are a part of the NYC MSA!
There is no Hartford-Springfield CSA. They're separate, by all Census classifications.

The discussion wasn't about Census classifications. And no, I'm not talking about those other CT cities. And they aren't part of the NY MSA, they're part of the NY CSA.
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  #236  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 4:44 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
It's called the "DMV". That name has been around for decades.
I have recently seen DMV twice in media.

I thought of you each time iheartthed.

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  #237  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 5:53 AM
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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
The balkanization of transit is the only thing that the Bay Area has in comparison with NY plus each transit agency serves a particular area. I don't want to explain here, but if you've been to the Bay Area, you'll understand why each transit agency is split up like that. It actually makes the area more interesting IMHO!
Thank goodness for the Clipper Card.
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  #238  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 12:01 PM
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II checked on Google Maps and it seems Acela does Philadelphia and New York in one hour. Are there people commuting between Central Philadelphia and Manhattan?
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  #239  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
II checked on Google Maps and it seems Acela does Philadelphia and New York in one hour. Are there people commuting between Central Philadelphia and Manhattan?
Yes, I personally know quite a few.
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  #240  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 4:43 PM
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Yes, I personally know quite a few.
If they managed to speed up the train (40 min), work with more frequencies, a more inviting price or come up with a commute fee, New York and Philadelphia labour markets could be regarded as a single one.
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