HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2022, 4:33 PM
EastSideHBG's Avatar
EastSideHBG EastSideHBG is offline
Me?!?
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Philadelphia Metro
Posts: 11,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by C. View Post
I'm curious about the cons (aside from a hangover).
- As time progresses if one/a few people in the circle are moving forward, particular upwards, it can make for an uncomfortable dynamic.
- Depending on the size of your team it can start to be viewed as clique-ish by others who aren't included or aren't able to attend.
- It can morph into a complaining/bitching session and in turn can get a little backstab-ish/two faced-ish.
- Opens the door for the potential of a romance developing.
- I have found that no matter how close you think you are with coworkers, you're really not. Of course there will be a few that you develop a genuine friendship with and can trust and will keep in touch with when you part ways but this is the exception and not the rule unfortunately.

I have many examples from various companies where HHs did more harm than good. There are definite pros, particularly from the networking aspect, but for me I just found them to be more trouble than they are worth.
__________________
Right before your eyes you're victimized, guys, that's the world of today and it ain't civilized.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2022, 8:08 PM
mhays mhays is online now
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by C. View Post
Misguided city planning -- no one liked office parks. There terrible inefficient use of land. The only reason why businesses located there was because it was cheap, physical office location. However, with WFH being widespread, it's much cheaper to forgo the office parks for the back of the house employees that don't handle mail or interact with the public and such. Just have them work from home.

The country is in a housing crisis. There should be an immediate rezoning of office parks to also allow for low to mid density residential to help correct the supply/demand imbalances. Smart cities will do this. Cities that will sit on the commercial land, hoping it comes back one day, will just be squandering a missed opportunity.
Inefficient land use, yes.

But there was a different primary reason for their existence: Many companies preferred them. The staff would be relaxed and focused on work, without distraction. Or so goes the theory.

This gave way to multiple differing concepts in the 90s and 00s, including:
1. The benefits of urban locations for developing new ideas -- cross-pollination with people outside the company etc.
2. The appeal of good urban environments for recruiting, particularly younger workers -- transit access, bars, etc.
3. Synergies with other nearby businesses

I agree that many office parks can and should help address the lack of housing, particularly if they're near decent transit.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2022, 8:13 PM
TWAK's Avatar
TWAK TWAK is online now
Resu Deretsiger
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Lake County, CA
Posts: 14,908
One of the worst offenders is North San Jose. All those parking lots surrounding the sprawlscrapers is just awful.
__________________
nobody cares about your city
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2022, 9:21 PM
Double L's Avatar
Double L Double L is offline
Houston:Considered Good
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Inefficient land use, yes.

But there was a different primary reason for their existence: Many companies preferred them. The staff would be relaxed and focused on work, without distraction. Or so goes the theory.

This gave way to multiple differing concepts in the 90s and 00s, including:
1. The benefits of urban locations for developing new ideas -- cross-pollination with people outside the company etc.
2. The appeal of good urban environments for recruiting, particularly younger workers -- transit access, bars, etc.
3. Synergies with other nearby businesses

I agree that many office parks can and should help address the lack of housing, particularly if they're near decent transit.
The way I saw suburban office parks was that since more people were living in the suburbs, this brought the place of work closer to where people lived.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 12:45 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
Yes, everything in life can be very simply boiled down to just evil rich white men ruining the lives of everyone else.
Actually, in this case, yes, that's exactly what happened.

Company location decisions are almost always - where does the owner/CEO want to live? In 1950's America, some Eisenhower-aligned WASP male, Silent Generation or earlier, decided where employees work. There's actually been lots of scholarship on the subject, and, to find a new corporate HQ location, just draw a small radius around the CEO's primary residence.

The era of suburban office parks coincided with executive flight to leafy suburbia, and the biggest concentrations of suburban office parks are adjacent to the biggest concentrations of executive wealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
Hobnobbing with a bunch of people who really don't like each other and just pretend to for the time being because it may pay off one day while paying for overpriced meals and drinks doesn't sound like my idea of interesting but to each their own.
And in a suburban sprawl office park, you still have to do all of that, but at Applebees. And your office will be a bad version of your home office. Hence the death of the office park.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 12:46 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double L View Post
The way I saw suburban office parks was that since more people were living in the suburbs, this brought the place of work closer to where people lived.
No, it brought work closer to where the CEO lived.

By definition, a suburban fringe office park can't be closer to where most potential employees live. In 1960, or whenever, when Union Carbide or Xerox moved from Manhattan to Connecticut, it benefitted the CEO at the expense of the employees. Anyone living in NYC, Long Island, New Jersey, or anywhere west of the Hudson, was screwed.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 12:53 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by C. View Post
This must be a cultural thing. Happy hour in a city like New York is a real thing, and I've never heard it described like that. People do have genuine friendships at work. We're not talking about an subordinate/employer kind of thing, but simply someone at the same position where you can vent about the ridiculous of the office. I wonder if this is an east cost / west coast cultural thing. As an east coaster, I can't relate to what you or sopas is saying at all.
This. Pretty much my entire social network, and my wife's social network, evolved during our 20's, working and socializing in Manhattan. That was basically the whole point.

I barely even remember my work output from my 20's. A dim haze of early 2000's-era spreadsheets and Powerpoints. But I'll never forget the evenings.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 2:21 AM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is online now
Dryer lint inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston/ SF Bay Area
Posts: 37,785
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post

Most people, at least interesting ones, want to see friends and business contacts too.
If you're 25. I go out with friends every so often but I'd rather spend evening with my wife.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 8:03 AM
CaliNative CaliNative is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
It's funny, because after I saw this thread, it made me think of this story I read about a month ago:

High Rises Are Out, Campuses Are In as L.A. Office Real Estate Market Recovers


Hackman Capital Partners’ 888 Douglas St., where Beyond Meat is a tenant, occupies 30 acres in El Segundo. COURTESY OF CBRE


The three-building Water’s Edge campus in Playa Vista, located near the L.A. offices of Facebook and Google. COURTESY OF CBRE

But I guess these particular "campuses" aren't exurban suburban office parks.
Do they make the veggie "meat" there, or is it just offices? The faux meat is quite good. Had a couple of Beyond meat burgers last week. Very tasty. The spicy sausage patties are good also. Bought some BYND stock last week. Already up 20%. Think another 20% to come.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 2:28 PM
EastSideHBG's Avatar
EastSideHBG EastSideHBG is offline
Me?!?
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Philadelphia Metro
Posts: 11,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Actually, in this case, yes, that's exactly what happened.

Company location decisions are almost always - where does the owner/CEO want to live? In 1950's America, some Eisenhower-aligned WASP male, Silent Generation or earlier, decided where employees work. There's actually been lots of scholarship on the subject, and, to find a new corporate HQ location, just draw a small radius around the CEO's primary residence.

The era of suburban office parks coincided with executive flight to leafy suburbia, and the biggest concentrations of suburban office parks are adjacent to the biggest concentrations of executive wealth.
Not buying that this is the reason over the last 40+ years or so, at least.

Quote:
And in a suburban sprawl office park, you still have to do all of that, but at Applebees. And your office will be a bad version of your home office. Hence the death of the office park.
I don't think that there will be a death but time will tell.
__________________
Right before your eyes you're victimized, guys, that's the world of today and it ain't civilized.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 2:59 PM
C. C. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
I don't think that there will be a death but time will tell.
It does come down to profits at the end of the day. There is very little demand for these huge office parks right now, but housing needs are out of control. It will be much more profitable to redevelop former office parks into mixed use centers as the buildings in the office park near the end of their useful life and have to be torn down anyway. Time will tell indeed.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 5:35 PM
Double L's Avatar
Double L Double L is offline
Houston:Considered Good
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,846
I think suburban office parks were built because businesses wanted to be located in suburban areas, because they believed transportation would rely on cars and not mass transit, so they wanted a place that was not congested and would be perceived as a more peaceful environment to work in.

I maintain that the reason some companies are leaving suburban office parks for downtowns is because they prefer the option of having a variety of restaurants, dessert shops, gyms etc. in walking distance and not prohibited by what is built in the office park. This way they have an entire neighborhood of businesses competing for their employees business.

Last edited by Double L; Jul 10, 2022 at 5:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 6:52 PM
SIGSEGV's Avatar
SIGSEGV SIGSEGV is offline
He/his/him. >~<, QED!
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Loop, Chicago
Posts: 5,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double L View Post
I think suburban office parks were built because businesses wanted to be located in suburban areas, because they believed transportation would rely on cars and not mass transit, so they wanted a place that was not congested and would be perceived as a more peaceful environment to work in.
Yes, but this was a conceptual error, as the average commute distance for employees go up (unless they all live in a nearby suburb, but that is unlikely), causing more VMT overall. Congestion is more diffuse, but worse (though perhaps, it is theoretically easier to increase capacity, but that also incentivizes more VMT so...).
__________________
And here the air that I breathe isn't dead.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2022, 7:23 PM
ardecila's Avatar
ardecila ardecila is offline
TL;DR
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: the city o'wind
Posts: 16,356
I would argue the 2010s were actually the era of the urban midrise office, or adaptive reuse. Maybe I'm imagining things, but it seems like the 80s actually saw more new downtown office towers in many US cities than the 2010s did. And nobody was talking about the death of the office park in the 80s.

2010s office developments might be "urban" but there are a lot more mid-city or downtown-adjacent developments vs projects in the heart of downtown. Often these projects are funky adaptive reuse of old industrial buildings rather than generic corporate boxes, or if they are new, then there is a definite industrial aesthetic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
It's funny, because after I saw this thread, it made me think of this story I read about a month ago:

But I guess these particular "campuses" aren't exurban suburban office parks.
LA has always been tilted towards decentralized office parks, or mall-adjacent highrise clusters like Century City or Warner Center that offer the views and prestige of highrises without the pesky social issues of a real downtown.

The new generation in Playa Vista, Culver City etc may be slightly less auto-oriented and more mixed-use, but they're still highly decentralized.
__________________
la forme d'une ville change plus vite, hélas! que le coeur d'un mortel...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2022, 7:25 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by JManc View Post
If you're 25. I go out with friends every so often but I'd rather spend evening with my wife.
I’m in my late 30s and I want to see friends at least a couple times a week. My wife and I probably have dinner together 3-4 times a week, sometimes out and sometimes at home. Spending too much time together with your partner seems unhealthy (and certainly led to a lot of friction during the Covid bullshit). No matter who it is, too much time with one person isn’t good.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2022, 1:49 AM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is online now
Dryer lint inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston/ SF Bay Area
Posts: 37,785
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I’m in my late 30s and I want to see friends at least a couple times a week. My wife and I probably have dinner together 3-4 times a week, sometimes out and sometimes at home. Spending too much time together with your partner seems unhealthy (and certainly led to a lot of friction during the Covid bullshit). No matter who it is, too much time with one person isn’t good.
That I agree with and more or less do the same routine. Sometimes I see friends once a week other weeks, I don't. People get wrapped in their own lives. Especially as we all got older.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2022, 7:57 AM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by JManc View Post
That I agree with and more or less do the same routine. Sometimes I see friends once a week other weeks, I don't. People get wrapped in their own lives. Especially as we all got older.
You know what helps with that? Not living in the suburbs. As long as the weather is nice, I bump into friends on the street every day, because we’re not in our cars.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
End
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:37 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.