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  #61  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 6:17 PM
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Originally Posted by zalf View Post
I'm pretty convinced by trueviking's argument from economics.

Rather than endlessly re-litigating debates about OV, what are some areas that actually are being held back by restrictive zoning? I'd make a case for Henderson Highway. That whole strip could absorb a lot more people, but it's largely R1 zoning, especially once you get away from the properties immediately facing Henderson.
R1 Zoning in Winnipeg.

West End (worst one imo everything in this area should allow for dense housing except near airport)



Northeast (everything between Henderson and Gateway, and all of Transcona could use an upzone)



Northwest (nothing between Main and McPhillips should be R1, but here we are)



St. Vital (Norwood has been around for nearly 100 years but making everything west of St. Mary's single family housing is atrocious use of prime real estate)

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  #62  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 6:17 PM
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When walking beside Osborne Street, I always feel like I am one distracted driver away from getting killed. They need to overhaul that street.
amen...i feel exactly the same....it is a terrifying experience....one lane should be removed and sidewalks widened, trees planted, benches installed, etc....but of course that wont happen because.cars.
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  #63  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek View Post
R1 Zoning in Winnipeg.
West End (worst one imo everything in this area should allow for dense housing)
also amen....R1 should be completely eliminated across the entire city.
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  #64  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
amen...i feel exactly the same....it is a terrifying experience....one lane should be removed and sidewalks widened, trees planted, benches installed, etc....but of course that wont happen because.cars.
Could also create permanent parking with curb bump outs
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  #65  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
when is the last time you have been to OV? I don't understand this idea that it is stagnant....there's new construction on almost every block.

the strip is a stroad, a commuter highway.....that's why it doesn't reach its potential....the neighbourhood is booming....the strip itself has two large projects underway....soon a third.

i do reject the idea the the strip is dead...go there...it is far from it....there are almost no empty storefronts....it could be so much more, I agree...but that starts with it being a nice place to be, not drive through.

I believe everyone's memory of osborne when they were 20 is romanticized because they were 20, not because of what osborne was.....20 year olds today will probably think the same when they get older.
Sure there is construction on every block in Osborne Village. You could say the same for Waverley West or Sage Creek, but no one would consider those to be vibrant urban areas.

There is only one large project under way on Osborne itself that I can see, one that has been stalled for years and is finally moving. The second big project is a vacant lot for the moment. Those will help, but they won't change the fact that the only significant build in over 20 years along that strip of Osborne is the commercial building that replaced Movie Village and remains vacant on the second floor to this day.

I thought this was a normal thing until I went to Halifax this summer and took a stroll down Spring Garden Road. The changes since my last visit in 2009 blew me away. New buildings, new shops, great streetscaping, lots of vitality. Of course, it helps that Spring Garden Road isn't a stroad with bumper to bumper traffic and grain trucks belching fumes at rush hour.

Unlike Spring Garden Road, Osborne is virtually unchanged since I was a teenager in the 90s. The only real differences are that the Osborne Village Inn and Dutch Maid are gone. So what good is all the extra density on Bole St or Wardlaw Ave when it doesn't translate into any kind of urban vitality on the neighbourhood's major streets? Ever since Portage Avenue kind of faded away for good in the 90s, Winnipeg must be one of the largest cities in the western world that doesn't have a normal high street. Osborne could be it, but it isn't.

Again, what is holding it back? Is it just the stroadiness of Osborne, or is there something else? It's supposed to be a showpiece neighbourhood but it has become dowdy and sad.
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  #66  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by eman View Post
I drive, walk and risk my life cycling the Village all the time. 390 on the River should have been built in the Village, 5 or 6 of them at various price points in the last decade.
]
LOL...once again....they are being built. you are just blind to density because you think it is the same thing as height.

here are a couple of examples on the strip itself....there are several more

This is your 390 on the river
91 units.
0 sqm of commercial space.
1800 sqm site area
24 stories.

compare it to....

179 Osborne (at gertrude)
90 units.
1,000 sqm commercial space (7 retail units)
2000 sqm site area.
6 stories.

160 Osborne (ZU)
89 units
1000 sqm commercial space
1200 sqm site area
6 stories.

looks like density to me, my friend.....again....density is not measured in skyline.

You appear to interpret me explaining the economics of high rise construction as opposition to high rises. It is not. I would love for high rises to be built everywhere. I am merely explaining the real world reason why they don’t get built very often. If you can build nearly the same density in mid rise, as I have demonstrated above, and do it for $60-80 per square foot less cost, which would you choose as a developer?

Last edited by trueviking; Sep 1, 2022 at 10:24 PM.
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  #67  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 6:48 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Sure there is construction on every block in Osborne Village. You could say the same for Waverley West or Sage Creek, but no one would consider those to be vibrant urban areas.

There is only one large project under way on Osborne itself that I can see, one that has been stalled for years and is finally moving. The second big project is a vacant lot for the moment. Those will help, but they won't change the fact that the only significant build in over 20 years along that strip of Osborne is the commercial building that replaced Movie Village and remains vacant on the second floor to this day.

I thought this was a normal thing until I went to Halifax this summer and took a stroll down Spring Garden Road. The changes since my last visit in 2009 blew me away. New buildings, new shops, great streetscaping, lots of vitality. Of course, it helps that Spring Garden Road isn't a stroad with bumper to bumper traffic and grain trucks belching fumes at rush hour.

Unlike Spring Garden Road, Osborne is virtually unchanged since I was a teenager in the 90s. The only real differences are that the Osborne Village Inn and Dutch Maid are gone. So what good is all the extra density on Bole St or Wardlaw Ave when it doesn't translate into any kind of urban vitality on the neighbourhood's major streets?

Again, what is holding it back? Is it just the stroadiness of Osborne, or is there something else? It's supposed to be a showpiece neighbourhood but it has become dowdy and sad.
ah, i see you mean new construction on the strip itself....sorry.

I agree that there has been little new construction on Osborne...that's obviously about to change....but I honestly dont see that as a bad thing....I dont really want new buildings all along it....i'd prefer the surrounding area densify, which it is, to support the commercial strip.

i will stand by my first argument that being a commuter highway is definitely holding back new buildings on the street itself...it also gives it the sad appearance that you feel, because the buildings themselves are full and busy....if the public realm was better, i really think you wouldnt feel that way.
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  #68  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 6:50 PM
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fun fact...there are 50% more restaurants in Osborne village today than there was in 1990.
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  #69  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Sure there is construction on every block in Osborne Village. You could say the same for Waverley West or Sage Creek, but no one would consider those to be vibrant urban areas.

There is only one large project under way on Osborne itself that I can see, one that has been stalled for years and is finally moving. The second big project is a vacant lot for the moment. Those will help, but they won't change the fact that the only significant build in over 20 years along that strip of Osborne is the commercial building that replaced Movie Village and remains vacant on the second floor to this day.

I thought this was a normal thing until I went to Halifax this summer and took a stroll down Spring Garden Road. The changes since my last visit in 2009 blew me away. New buildings, new shops, great streetscaping, lots of vitality. Of course, it helps that Spring Garden Road isn't a stroad with bumper to bumper traffic and grain trucks belching fumes at rush hour.

Unlike Spring Garden Road, Osborne is virtually unchanged since I was a teenager in the 90s. The only real differences are that the Osborne Village Inn and Dutch Maid are gone. So what good is all the extra density on Bole St or Wardlaw Ave when it doesn't translate into any kind of urban vitality on the neighbourhood's major streets? Ever since Portage Avenue kind of faded away for good in the 90s, Winnipeg must be one of the largest cities in the western world that doesn't have a normal high street. Osborne could be it, but it isn't.

Again, what is holding it back? Is it just the stroadiness of Osborne, or is there something else? It's supposed to be a showpiece neighbourhood but it has become dowdy and sad.
100% could not agree more.

Apologies, my response was geared towards OV as a whole. I didn't realize you were talking about Osborne St. itself, which has done nothing to improve in that 10 year period. Unfortunately it has only gone backwards from what was once a fairly heavily animated streetscape, at least when I lived in the area.

Here's hoping a few more projects in the same scope as what is currently being constructed between Stradbrook and Confusion Corner can be positive catalysts in bringing back life to the street.

As Vike mentioned though it will be a tough slog to ever give it any sense of a true neighborhood feel without drastic alterations to the streetscape and some drastic traffic calming measures.
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  #70  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 7:59 PM
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^ I would agree that Osborne Village itself as a whole is doing fairly well. It is nice to see slow but steady construction. That said, I wouldn't complain if there were a couple of taller buildings that went up to help speed things along, but the 2-8 storey buildings are fine too.

However, it is frustrating that this influx of people has not really translated into revitalized high streets. Not necessarily Osborne only, but I would have expected River Ave to be more further along by now too. I remember when Pulse on River opened up some 15 years ago, I thought it would be one of a series of such buildings that would eventually turn River into a bit of a commercial strip in its own right. Of course, that never happened.

It is odd to me that you can have so many more people in the area than there were 30 years ago, but the high street is in arguably worse shape now. The new developments on Osborne will certainly help, but there is still a long way to go.
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  #71  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 9:37 PM
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^ that's one of my biggest complaints for all of Winnipeg....we have high blocks not high streets.

How does the Bro-Ass neighbourhood have almost no commercial amenities with 8,000 people living there? How is Provencher so dead? Academy? All of downtown? Its an endless list.

to me the answer is STROAD.

Last edited by trueviking; Sep 1, 2022 at 10:18 PM.
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  #72  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 7:40 AM
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That's it. Moving lots of traffic isn't compatible with any use along a street.

I just plugged Sargent ave. as Winnipeg's best food street in the Canada board. And Sargent is arguably the closest thing the city has to a sustained high street, gap-toothed as it is. It's no coincidence that Sargent kind of goes nowhere. It spans the West End, but dead-ends at the airport and Central Park. That saves it from excessive stroadification--it's not useful for suburbanites driving downtown. Sargent, therefore, remains a West End street and a focus point of the community.

Corydon is also a passable, if passé, high street because it's not a stroad. It does connect the suburbs to downtown, but it's been spared the traffic engineer's brutality thanks to Grant making it redundant. Not that there aren't people in Tuxedo and Charleswood who want to see parking bans to speed traffic on Corydon too.


Osborne street has been battered by two changes. First, moving busses off the street. Busses used to deliver many more customers directly to Osborne; moving them took those customers away. Now they walk from Harkness to their apartments without interacting with Osborne at all. Their spontaneous interactions that make great urban places are gone. The busses were also a bit of a traffic-calming device, good for bunging up and slowing down traffic. With fewer busses, cars can race through.

Second, suburban growth in south Winnipeg has put a lot more cars on the street. Osborne connects to two pseudo expressways in St. Vital. Confusion Corner introduces the gaping Pembina Highway traffic sewer to the street midway, even as Donald is supposed to be the sewer to downtown.

Confusion Corner could be easily fixed with a cut-and-cover tunnel from Pembina to Donald @ Scott, pulling traffic off local streets and inducing traffic on the preferred sewer. The OV stretch of Osborne needs, at the very least, its geometry fixed. The east sidewalk is dangerously narrow just north of Stradbrook to accommodate a bézier curve in the stroad. Make that street jagged and slow. Allow parking 24hrs on both sides. And kick the damn trucks off. Not every street needs to accommodate trucking, and no high street will thrive as long as it tries.

Better yet, close the block between River and Stradbrook to cars; prioritize transit and bikes on the whole stretch. Improved transit and reduced drivability would induce St. Vital residents to use transit, thus helping the South Osborne stretch with its expressway problems.

I disagree that Osborne is as good as it's ever been. 1990 is a strange benchmark; the street was just coming into its own in the '90s. It was culturally more vital than now in the '90s and 2000s, and had a moment as a shopping street around 2010. It's fine as a service centre for local yuppies going to the gym or for something to eat, but it's not interesting, and at the same time it still lacks certain day-to-day services--cell phone shops, book stores, watch repair, computer repair, florists, anywhere to buy basic clothing.
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Last edited by biguc; Sep 2, 2022 at 7:55 AM.
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  #73  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 12:07 PM
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^ those last basic amenities that you mention are crucial to liveability. Ironically, the rents driven by the perceived notion that Osborne is a desirable destination street chased away a lot of what made Osborne great. Love me a good food joint but I find it concerning that that seems like the only thing that can survive there… never mind that most of them can’t. Winnipeg sure is a strange city. I often think about how different it would be if the Wilson subway was built. Yet another case of penny pinching that would have done wonders economically and socially for the city. Every time we balk at a project like that or compromise and do something half assed because of the price tag (I’m looking at you SW BRT/“RT” plan and literally every attempt at a freeway), it’s yet another example of being penny wise and pound foolish.
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  #74  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 1:25 PM
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The only reason I picked 1990 is because I found a hilarious tv commercial where she gave a number. Ha ha. Turns out it was actually 89.

https://youtu.be/VauRJU1FPzg

I wish there was some way to quantify what Osborne was in the past. I’m not sure it was what everyone remembers. Other than a few places like a record shop and the zoo, etc. was it really the vibrant bohemian enclave we remember? I’m not sure it was.

Either way, I don’t believe that Osborne has died, or that it’s sad as the general sentiment appears to be. It’s a car sewer for sure, but the actual commercial spaces are not anything like Portage Avenue or any other strip in Winnipeg.

Will be interesting to see what the new developments do. Especially the Zu when it is totally complete. Should at least create more gravity on the second block of the village.

Last edited by trueviking; Sep 2, 2022 at 1:36 PM.
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  #75  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 2:10 PM
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^ that commercial just made my week. Makes me think of Bea Brody!
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  #76  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 2:24 PM
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There may not be a way to quantify how interesting or complete a high street is, but it's a worthy effort to try.

Completeness is probably the easier metric. Lay down all the stuff you need. Count one instance of each in a blocked-off area. Count each extra instance as a partial point.

An interesting area is the more interesting problem. You'd want to look for interesting places--galleries, boutiques, music venues, dive bars, etc. You could qualify a place as interesting by somethings as simple as whether it exists anywhere else. Chains are never interesting, as the woman in that 1989 commercial knows.

You'd almost want to give more points for multiple instances of each type of interesting place. 5 galleries on a street is more than 5x as interesting as one, thanks to network effects and economies of scale.

You'd want to look out for multiple sub-cultures. In its heyday you'd see metal heads from the Zoo, punks from Collective, and ravers from Die Maschine out on Osborne. That's interesting in and of itself, and indicates that the street was interesting to more people.

In the interest of seeing how many people the interests on this street can attract, you'd also want to see how accessible it is. Cheaper places are open to more people. Bowery in the '80s was inarguably more interesting than gentrified Bowery now.

Finally, you'd want to find a way to quantify all the shit that's impossible to quantify beyond a binary. Are there graffiti and posters everywhere? Do people sit on the sidewalk? Are there buskers?



Quote:
Originally Posted by optimusREIM View Post
^ those last basic amenities that you mention are crucial to liveability. Ironically, the rents driven by the perceived notion that Osborne is a desirable destination street chased away a lot of what made Osborne great. Love me a good food joint but I find it concerning that that seems like the only thing that can survive there… never mind that most of them can’t. Winnipeg sure is a strange city. I often think about how different it would be if the Wilson subway was built. Yet another case of penny pinching that would have done wonders economically and socially for the city. Every time we balk at a project like that or compromise and do something half assed because of the price tag (I’m looking at you SW BRT/“RT” plan and literally every attempt at a freeway), it’s yet another example of being penny wise and pound foolish.
Totally. It always bothered me, living in Osborne, how so much was very convenient, but I still had to take trips to the suburbs for some pretty basic stuff. Can you even get a shirt pressed in Osborne? Commercial rents in Osborne drive away much of what the neighbourhood needs, but as long as it's an inhospitable stroad, it's not like it's going to attract the kind of rents the landlords feel entitled to.

Wrap it up with the whole penny wise pound foolish thing. It's like investing is a lost art in Winnipeg. Keep your money in a sock until you can afford to buy a rental house or parking lot, then spend your life shamelessly rent seeking.

The other side of that is not knowing the value of what they have. If it's not generating rents, rip it down and sell the scrap. Parking lots generate rents! The Wilson subway is a good thought experiment on what could be if Winnipeger's knew how to invest. But what about just keeping the old tram lines in place? Nobody knows how to keep anything good going either.
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  #77  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 2:26 PM
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I've done many searches to even find photos of osborne over the years...its amazingly undocumented....i agree it would be a great exercise....i love the idea of a points scale of interest.

thinking about it again, it probably was better, just because all streets were better...even portage avenue was better 20 years ago.

the entire world has less soul than it used to.
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  #78  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 2:38 PM
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Either way, I don’t believe that Osborne has died, or that it’s sad as the general sentiment appears to be. It’s a car sewer for sure, but the actual commercial spaces are not anything like Portage Avenue or any other strip in Winnipeg.
I don't think Osborne Village has gotten worse so much as it has remained exactly the same as it was 25-30 years ago. Osborne Village isn't the Exchange District, the streetscapes aren't supposed to remain frozen in time.

Go look at Osborne Village's contemporaries in other cities, I'm not talking the big three, I'm thinking of Whyte Ave., Spring Garden Road, 17th Ave SW... compare them to how they looked in 1997. For the most part, they're very different, they've changed for the better. Lots of new MURBs, lots of new commercial space, thriving restaurant and retail, etc. They have improved, they are more polished, there is more of everything.

Meanwhile in Osborne Village, if that lady in the commercial travelled through time she would think it was still 1989 at first glance until she noticed that the bookstore and banks are gone, but a bunch of cannabis and tattoo shops have opened up.

And before someone gives me the "why are you so obsessed with yuppie white people gentrification" buzzword barrage, let me just say that having interesting and pleasant urban neighbourhoods, not just downtown, matters in terms of the city's image. For a few years when Osborne Village was riding high, it was a bit of a point of pride for the city. It was the kind of place that was regarded as an interesting area that could draw people.

It's amazing to me that even the prime corners in Osborne Village like where Cornerstone is, or the entirety of the Osborne and Stradbrook intersection are all just the same single storey commercial that they were in 1989. This is not something I would consider to be positive.
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  #79  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
I've done many searches to even find photos of osborne over the years...its amazingly undocumented....i agree it would be a great exercise....i love the idea of a points scale of interest.

thinking about it again, it probably was better, just because all streets were better...even portage avenue was better 20 years ago.

the entire world has less soul than it used to.
I've seen a few good Osborne photos in this collection over the years, but nothing comprehensive.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/9513047@N05/page1
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  #80  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 2:47 PM
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here's a few photos....there used to be trees!!!!????










1959...love this one
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