CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[chiphile]

^You list practical points that explain the reasoning behind the current proposal.

My contention is (and what I should have stated clearly), why not at least PLAN for what a full build out looks like, and only finish half of it in the current ten-year plan? What happened to master planning? The current proposal looks like a cluster-F for someone in 2040 looking to maximize the terminal-side of the airfield. On the bright side though, the parallel western concourses look like they can be expanded westward in a parallel fashion, which is good, but without main terminal processing capacity additions may not be possible without a western terminal to house ticket and baggage counters.

Without planning for the full build out needed as passenger numbers inevitably increase, I'm afraid the piecemeal approach will leave us with an awkward configuration and inefficient use of land once it is all used up--leaving us with a JFK-like configuration that historians will have to explain.

[aquablue]

Outsiders view here. O'Hare looks very impressive with that major airfield redevelopment (6 almost parallel runways is no joke). However, the terminals leave a lot to be desired.

[cyked3]

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/da...discussion.pdf

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by cyked3

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/da...discussion.pdf

Outstanding! It looks better! I love the idea! I think it's right choice for you. They don't have to take a tram from entire T5 anymore. You stay at T2 and go on next connecting flight. it much easier for you. Once you landed at ORD and go to customs & immigration and pick up your bags and go to recheck your bags to continue on next domestic flight. It will be easy for you. You don't have worried about flight delays or missed the flight.

[ardecila]

Also interesting to see that the Midway garage expansion includes a new and more direct path from CTA to the departures hall, with climate control!

Looks like the spiral ramp on the south side of the garage will be demolished (moved elsewhere) and the CTA's pedestrian bridge extended directly westward over the garage entrance, then northward into the south side of departures.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by cyked3

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/da...discussion.pdf

Thanks. I like the new terminal plan, very good. That T5 always seemed to be a bad place for an international terminal, way out on its own like that and far from connections.. JFK needs to get on its horse and do something similar, the terminals are all over the place there and need connecting.

[k1052]

With the low cost guys getting moved to an expanded T5 I wonder if Southwest will make a run at ORD. Even just 2-3 gates could support a significant number of flights for them.

[trvlr70]

It appears as if the new plans divide up the gates neatly between One World, Star Alliance and Sky Team. But where will all the non-affiliated airlines go. Chicago has a big number of these.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by trvlr70

But where will all the non-affiliated airlines go. Chicago has a big number of these.

here's the current breakdown of O'hare's airlines. Bold indicates significant service to at least 5 different destinations. Bold Red indicates massive hub.


Star Alliance airlines with current or future service to ORD:

Air Canada
Air India
All Nippon Airways
Asiana Airlines
Austrian Airlines
Avianca
Copa Airlines
EVA Air
LOT Polish Airlines
Lufthansa
Scandinavian Airlines
Swiss International Air Lines
Turkish Airlines
United Airlines




One World airlines with current or future service to ORD:

Aer Lingus (soon to join One World)
American Airlines
British Airways
Cathay Pacific
Finnair
Iberia Airlines
Japan Airlines
Qatar Airways
Royal Jordanian




Sky Team airlines with current or future service to ORD:

Aeromexico
Air France
Alitalia
China Eastern Airlines
Delta Airlines
KLM
Korean Air




Independent domestic airlines with current or future service to ORD:

Air Choice One
Alaska Airlines
Frontier Airlines
JetBlue Airways
Spirit Airlines
Virgin America (soon to folded into the Alaska brand)




Independent international airlines with current or future service to ORD:

Bahamasair
Cayman Airways
Emirates
Eithad Airways (potentially joining Star Alliance soon)
Hainan Airlines
Icelandair
Interjet
Norwegian Air Shuttle
Volaris
WestJet
WOW air



the expanded T5 shown in the diagrams linked several posts above shows a total of ~28 gates. i think that should be enough to cover all of the Sky Team and independent airlines, the vast majority of which have very limited operations at ORD. of those, only delta, frontier, and spirit have what you could call substajntial operations at ORD, the rest are mostly one or two flights a day.

[kbud]

Originally Posted by cyked3

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/da...discussion.pdf

It is great to finally see this, but this reads much more like a plan than commitment or a buy-in to what will actually happen.
- I wonder how long it will take until the first hole is dug.
- I'm also curious to why the comparison did not include Atlanta.
- How will the western access work with baggage as it looks like it connects to the new T2? Airlines won't have 2 baggage carousels. How will western passengers connect to T5?
- Am I reading this that it also includes 2 or 3 more gates to the American L-concourse extension?

[nomarandlee]

I think the logistics of the new plan make a ton of sense.

One thing I wonder is will T5 now be able to fit in more gates even without expansion given that most of the gates are fit to handle wide-bodies? I would think that a retrofit to handle more mid-size jets that Delta/Spirit/Frontier/JB etc would be using obviously don't need the space that internationals do.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by k1052

With the low cost guys getting moved to an expanded T5 I wonder if Southwest will make a run at ORD. Even just 2-3 gates could support a significant number of flights for them.

i'd be surprised if southwest tried to stake out territory at ORD. in other multi-airport metros where southwest serves multiple airports (boston, NYC, DC/balt., Miami, LA & bay area) the airports served are pretty widely dispersed to serve different sub-regions within the market, but in the case of ORD and MDW, both are pretty damn centrally located, one is just the global mega-hub airport, and the other has become the de facto "southwest airport", similar to the arrangements in dallas and houston,

Originally Posted by nomarandlee

One thing I wonder is will T5 now be able to fit in more gates even without expansion given that most of the gates are fit to handle wide-bodies? I would think that a retrofit to handle more mid-size jets that Delta/Spirit/Frontier/JB etc would be using obviously don't need the space that internationals do.

that's a good point.

if sky team, the LCC's, and international independents are all moved out to a new and improved T5, then the need for wide body gates will be sharply reduced because the vast bulk of the aircraft activity there would shift to 737/A320-sized planes for delta/frontier/spirit, who together would probably account for around 75% of the activity at the reformulated terminal.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i'd be surprised if southwest tried to stake out territory at ORD. in other multi-airport metros where southwest serves multiple airports (boston, NYC, DC/balt., Miami, LA & bay area) the airports served are pretty widely dispersed to serve different sub-regions within the market, but in the case of ORD and MDW, both are pretty damn centrally located, one is just the global mega-hub airport, and the other has become the de facto "southwest airport", similar to the arrangements in dallas and houston,

I think the most comparable situation is probably Dallas but they can't even get into DFW before 2025 if they wanted to. Looking forward they may want access to the international connections offered by ORD, they would make a natural partner for the (apparently) coming onslaught of low cost international carriers.

Edit: I also seem to recall that the FAA says the max # of daily flights that MDW can accommodate is about 850. It's already above 700.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by k1052

With the low cost guys getting moved to an expanded T5 I wonder if Southwest will make a run at ORD. Even just 2-3 gates could support a significant number of flights for them.

No, unfortunately not. They won't be at ORD. They already served MDW. I don't think its happening anytime soon. Sorry! Out of luck.

[k1052]

n/m

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by k1052

Edit: I also seem to recall that the FAA says the max # of daily flights that MDW can accommodate is about 850. It's already above 700.

i don't doubt that southwest is getting close to maxing out MDW. it's my hunch, though, that when MDW is indeed finally fully maxed-out, southwest will likely build up st. louis (and all of its vastly underutilized capacity) into its 4th mid-continent "non-hub" hub (along with MDW, DAL, & HOU) before trying to crack into ORD.

but i could certainly be wrong on that.

[N830MH]

I think MDW need to do reconstruction the runway by 10,000 length feet long. Because they already have 4 runway, but it was too short. It's time to rebuilding the runway.

[denizen467]

^ What neighborhoods do you think should be bulldozed for this?

[C.]

Originally Posted by denizen467

^ What neighborhoods do you think should be bulldozed for this?

Exactly!

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by N830MH

I think MDW need to do reconstruction the runway by 10,000 length feet long.

and I think pig need to do lesson for the flying.



MDW's runways will never be extended. it would be a complete and total political non-starter at this stage of the game.

the time to expand MDW's footprint would have been back in the '40s before the airport was engulfed by the bungalow belt.

for better or worse, MDW is not going to be any more or any less than what it is right now for the foreseeable future.

and what it is right now is a perfectly serviceable secondary airport that serves as southwest's largest "non-hub" hub in the nation.

in fact, it's the 4th busiest airport in the entire midwest by passenger volume. only ORD, MSP, and DTW are busier in the midwest.

southwest doesn't do overseas flights; their fleet is 100% 737's, which MDW's 6,500' runways are long enough to accommodate.