HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 7:43 PM
The North One's Avatar
The North One The North One is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,489
Every city has before and afters that look like this. America is nothing like the 1930's anymore to say the least.

We have *multiple urban renewal threads, idk why you felt the need to create a new one for just this photo. This is redundant.
__________________
Spawn of questionable parentage!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 7:44 PM
Yuri's Avatar
Yuri Yuri is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,478
Although it's hard, let's see the brightside. I was GSViewing Downtown Detroit and apparently it's in great shape. Clean streets, several nice restaurants/bars.

Let's see if things keep picking up and maybe Detroit might be a good option for urban living.
__________________
London - São Paulo - Rio de Janeiro - Londrina - Frankfurt
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 7:52 PM
edale edale is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,178
Amazing image of old Detroit. Lot of thoughts here:

1) Even back in whatever time this photo was taken, Detroit's housing stock appears dominated by detached housing. It looks very dense, but lacking the rows that I associate with these types of historical photos.

2) Did Detroit have a Hausmann/Moses figure who can largely be pointed to for not just the freeway construction, but also the massive commercial avenues that cut across the city. I see some evidence of a diagonal in roughly the center of this image...I'm guessing that is Gratiot? It looks much narrower and less prominent than its current configuration.

3) I think there is an important distinction that needs to be made between urban renewal for redevelopment (such as public housing, institutional projects, etc.) and destruction of urban neighborhoods for freeways. Urban renewal projects intentionally tore down communities that were thought to be poor, overcrowded, dirty, and old. These areas were often replaced with the modernist ideal-- i.e. LeCorb's 'towers in the park'. It was an intentional effort to erase what was, and create a new cityscape that replaced the chaos of the old neighborhood with modern sterility. Freeway construction also demolished poor/minority neighborhoods, but it was more a matter of expediency. It's simply easier to route a freeway through a poor neighborhood whose residents lack the political agency of richer neighborhoods.

4) Detroit, more than probably anywhere else for the first half of the 20th century, was really the city of the future. It revolutionized industrial efficiency and gave the world the automobile. Given this, is it possible that city leaders embraced modernist ideals more than other cities? Given its high growth and enterprising spirit, I can totally see an attitude of 'out with the old, in with the new' prevailing there. Only problem is the 'new' stopped flowing. I see a parallel to LA here, in a way.

5) I was poking around Detroit on streetview the other day, and came across this very impressive strip on Gratiot near Eastern Market: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3435...7i16384!8i8192

It gives a glimpse of what Detroit used to be. This is pretty intense urban development outside the downtown core, and one of the few examples remaining that demonstrate how this city must've felt back in the day. It gives me a Wicker Park Chicago vibe, though there is no real neighborhood around it-- just a huge network of weird, insular apartment complexes to the east: https://www.google.com/maps/place/De...!4d-83.0457538
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 8:01 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
I see some evidence of a diagonal in roughly the center of this image...I'm guessing that is Gratiot? It looks much narrower and less prominent than its current configuration.
Yeah, Detroit widened all its major arterials about 20-30 years before the freeways were built. Now the arterials are, for the most part, barely used. Six or eight lanes where two are needed. The freeways paralleled the arterials, killing them. Grand River, Gratiot, Fort, Michigan, Jefferson, Woodward (though Woodward is now pretty healthy in parts, and East Jefferson is ok).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 8:06 PM
SIGSEGV's Avatar
SIGSEGV SIGSEGV is offline
He/his/him. >~<, QED!
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Loop, Chicago
Posts: 5,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Every city has before and afters that look like this. America is nothing like the 1930's anymore to say the least.

We have *multiple urban renewal threads, idk why you felt the need to create a new one for just this photo. This is redundant.
Yeah, most American cities are scarred to some extent or another, with a few exceptions that were largely spared by freeways (SF, DC, Manhattan).

Can't think of too many examples outside the US. Large swathes of Bucuresti (and probably many other Eastern European cities) were knocked during "systemization" but the end result is at least dense and fairly vibrant, if ugly.
__________________
And here the air that I breathe isn't dead.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 8:18 PM
IrishIllini IrishIllini is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,172
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
Yeah, most American cities are scarred to some extent or another, with a few exceptions that were largely spared by freeways (SF, DC, Manhattan).

Can't think of too many examples outside the US. Large swathes of Bucuresti (and probably many other Eastern European cities) were knocked during "systemization" but the end result is at least dense and fairly vibrant, if ugly.
Chicago fared well for the most part.

Cities that choked off their downtown's with beltways and sprawling spaghetti interchanges will regret that in perpetuity, assuming they never come down.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 8:21 PM
SIGSEGV's Avatar
SIGSEGV SIGSEGV is offline
He/his/him. >~<, QED!
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Loop, Chicago
Posts: 5,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishIllini View Post
Chicago fared well for the most part.

Cities that choked off their downtown's with beltways and sprawling spaghetti interchanges will regret that in perpetuity, assuming they never come down.
It certainly could have been worse, since many of the expressways followed rail corridors, but the Dan Ryan and Eisenhower caused immense damage.
__________________
And here the air that I breathe isn't dead.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 8:34 PM
The North One's Avatar
The North One The North One is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Although it's hard, let's see the brightside. I was GSViewing Downtown Detroit and apparently it's in great shape. Clean streets, several nice restaurants/bars.

Let's see if things keep picking up and maybe Detroit might be a good option for urban living.
It is, currently. And it's not just downtown. It's the whole core area all the way to New Center. The upper part of Cass Corridor is becoming one of the best urban neighborhoods in the Midwest I believe. Outside of that, Southwest is also very walkable and pretty well intact, great neighborhoods like Hubbard Farms down there, full of stunning architecture and you'll even find some rowhomes. West village is another great urban area with plenty of new infill development.

It never got any attention here but the city is also funneling millions of dollars into streetscape renovations on main roads that dramatically increase sidewalk length and add bike lanes. Livernois Avenue which is lined with wall to wall businesses has become a walkable bikeable urban corridor basically overnight and that's nowhere near downtown.
__________________
Spawn of questionable parentage!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 8:42 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
Amazing image of old Detroit. Lot of thoughts here:

1) Even back in whatever time this photo was taken, Detroit's housing stock appears dominated by detached housing. It looks very dense, but lacking the rows that I associate with these types of historical photos.
Most of the 19th century type of row housing that you probably have in mind would've been near the river. Almost all of it is gone now, and I'm not sure exactly when most of it was razed. These are probably the only remaining structures of that type in Detroit: https://goo.gl/maps/nbaEGGVDEP7WJZDR8. If you spin it around, you can easily tell what happened to the neighbors, lol. Most of the city of Detroit was within one or two miles of the river when this style of housing was common.

There are some examples of early 20th century attached row housing that is still standing, but there is no neighborhood in Detroit today that is overwhelmingly of that type, like you would find in Philadelphia or Baltimore. It is common in the denser prewar areas of Detroit for a block to be a mixture of detached single house, multi-unit flat, and even apartment buildings. Sometimes row houses are thrown in too.

For instance, this street was dominated by row houses: https://goo.gl/maps/qQ4zPLUMmjWaEBjD9

Just a couple blocks away was a street dominated by flat-style houses (the most common style of multi-family housing in the city): https://goo.gl/maps/hATsFgjHmti5dmUp6

Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
2) Did Detroit have a Hausmann/Moses figure who can largely be pointed to for not just the freeway construction, but also the massive commercial avenues that cut across the city. I see some evidence of a diagonal in roughly the center of this image...I'm guessing that is Gratiot? It looks much narrower and less prominent than its current configuration.
I think most people point fingers at mayors Jeffries and Cobo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
5) I was poking around Detroit on streetview the other day, and came across this very impressive strip on Gratiot near Eastern Market: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3435...7i16384!8i8192

It gives a glimpse of what Detroit used to be. This is pretty intense urban development outside the downtown core, and one of the few examples remaining that demonstrate how this city must've felt back in the day. It gives me a Wicker Park Chicago vibe, though there is no real neighborhood around it-- just a huge network of weird, insular apartment complexes to the east: https://www.google.com/maps/place/De...!4d-83.0457538
I circled this intersection in red on this photo. All of those buildings were standing when the photo was taken.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 8:44 PM
The North One's Avatar
The North One The North One is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post

nope. it's literally 1.5 miles from Campus Martius. full-blown post-war suburbia just outside of downtown.

i mean, if you told me that was somewhere in schaumburg or the like, i'd have no reason to disbelieve you.
You have this in Chicago too. I mean this looks like exurbia, just outside the loop.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8642...7i16384!8i8192
__________________
Spawn of questionable parentage!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 8:47 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by The North One View Post
You have this in Chicago too. I mean this looks like exurbia, just outside the loop.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8642...7i16384!8i8192
Yeah, that's some pretty bad housing project crap. I wouldn't call it "exurbia", but it's definitely not good.

Not quite the same as that detroit example with the wholely unnecessary 6 lane suburban style arterial plowing through the area.

thank god so much of the newer infill development going up in core detroit these days is LIGHT YEARS better than that shit.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Apr 28, 2021 at 10:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 9:16 PM
SIGSEGV's Avatar
SIGSEGV SIGSEGV is offline
He/his/him. >~<, QED!
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Loop, Chicago
Posts: 5,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by The North One View Post
You have this in Chicago too. I mean this looks like exurbia, just outside the loop.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8642...7i16384!8i8192
yes that is embarrassing. Chicago has its share of terrible planning mistakes.
__________________
And here the air that I breathe isn't dead.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 9:32 PM
kool maudit's Avatar
kool maudit kool maudit is offline
video et taceo
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 13,867
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
Can't think of too many examples outside the US.
The UK went mad with this. Manchester was reduced from a Philadelphia-scale expanse of prewar housing to, I don't know, maybe Providence?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 10:02 PM
KevinFromTexas's Avatar
KevinFromTexas KevinFromTexas is offline
Meh
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: there and back again
Posts: 57,324
So, we typically say that the freeways are what killed Detroit, but did they? I mean, I hate freeways just as much as the next freeway hating guy, but neighborhoods can exist with them. The big difference I see in those images is what appears to be a zoning change that might not have been as sustainable as they predicted. Those old neighborhoods were Detroit's heritage and were connective. All a city has is its neighborhoods. That's its culture, its history, and heritage. If anyone believes that industry setting up shop to make money cares about any of that, I would simply show them those two images. Sure, the freeways in Detroit were no good for the city and I cringe every time I see them. Thankfully, Austin dodged that bullet in the 60s when there were plans to dissect the city with them. But I see those companies that swooped in, did their thing and then left when times got hard as being the biggest damage to Detroit. Then they were left with industrial wastelands that separated the heart of the city from the rest of the neighborhoods.

In a way the same thing is happening in Austin with billion dollar tech giants coming here building their factories, except that they aren't building them in the heart of the city. They're on the edge. Apple and Tesla are two that are doing that now. Yeah, sure there are highways out there - some younger than others, but it was all open land that wasn't old neighborhoods in the city. So there's the chance now to even create neighborhoods there that do connect to the city.

This is one development that caught our eye on the forum that could become the next really big thing in Austin.

https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/n...dogs-head.html
DEVELOPERS COMB DOG'S HEAD
Heavy hitters are turning to a huge site near Tesla — but it won't be easy to build on

A satellite view of Dog's Head in far East Austin, which is formed naturally by the Colorado River. To the right of the the dog's snout is the State Highway 130 toll road and the new Tesla gigafactory.


By Kathryn Hardison and Paul Thompson – Austin Business Journal
Apr 27, 2021

The land — tucked between U.S. Highway 183 and State Highway 130 in far East Austin — faces distinct development challenges due to its history as a sand and gravel mining hub. But its proximity to both downtown and Austin-Bergstrom International Airport offers substantial allure. Tesla’s thunderous arrival in the summer of 2020 only added to the intrigue.

Family-owned ranches span about 2,100 acres of the Dog’s Head and exude untapped development potential. A handful of residences are tucked behind overgrown foliage lining dirt roads, and bright orange and pink surveying markers can be spotted in the greenery. Those survey flags are often a sign of development activity.

It’s also hard to miss the various mining operations that leave the area laden with truck activity. The Dog’s Head is still rather quiet, except for the occasional roar from airplanes that fly to and from the nearby airport.

There are some clear ties to Endeavor, though. An entity called Dog’s Head Ltd. applied for a trademark for the phrase “Dog’s Head” in August 2020, according to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. The application lists the same address as Endeavor’s downtown Austin office. The documents state that Dog's Head Ltd. was created for site selection and development services for residential, retail, restaurant, commercial, civic, sports entertainment and mixed-use projects.

__________________
Donate to Donald Trump's campaign today!

Thou shall not indict

Last edited by KevinFromTexas; Apr 28, 2021 at 10:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 10:25 PM
edale edale is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Most of the 19th century type of row housing that you probably have in mind would've been near the river. Almost all of it is gone now, and I'm not sure exactly when most of it was razed. These are probably the only remaining structures of that type in Detroit: https://goo.gl/maps/nbaEGGVDEP7WJZDR8. If you spin it around, you can easily tell what happened to the neighbors, lol. Most of the city of Detroit was within one or two miles of the river when this style of housing was common.

There are some examples of early 20th century attached row housing that is still standing, but there is no neighborhood in Detroit today that is overwhelmingly of that type, like you would find in Philadelphia or Baltimore. It is common in the denser prewar areas of Detroit for a block to be a mixture of detached single house, multi-unit flat, and even apartment buildings. Sometimes row houses are thrown in too.

For instance, this street was dominated by row houses: https://goo.gl/maps/qQ4zPLUMmjWaEBjD9
Shades of Toronto here for sure.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 10:56 PM
The North One's Avatar
The North One The North One is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post

thank god so much of the newer infill development going up in core detroit these days is LIGHT YEARS better than that shit.
Yeah, thankfully that kinda shit will never be built ever again. And Lafayette Park has been getting some decent infill, it will never be as urban as it was before renewal but it can at least be a better urban fabric.
__________________
Spawn of questionable parentage!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2021, 11:23 PM
The North One's Avatar
The North One The North One is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,489
Also that "after" aerial is several years old and doesn't show infill development that's happened since. Most notably this major one about to be finished in Brush Park (Hudson site and Huntington Bank HQ under construction in the background).




LinkedIn | Jason Keen

And another thing, I-375 downtown is planning to be removed as well as about half the interchange seen in OP's aerial.
__________________
Spawn of questionable parentage!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 2:28 AM
N90 N90 is offline
Voice of the Modern World
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,094
Beautiful
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 3:00 AM
dave8721 dave8721 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Miami
Posts: 4,036
The riots of 1967 left a gash as well. 1950-1990 wasn't kind to many cities. The riots of the late 60s to early 70's was as about as bad as it got and put a fast forward on the mass exodus from many cities:

Photo gallery: https://allthatsinteresting.com/1967-detroit-riots#25
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 6:41 AM
muppet's Avatar
muppet muppet is offline
if I sang out of tune
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: London
Posts: 6,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
The UK went mad with this. Manchester was reduced from a Philadelphia-scale expanse of prewar housing to, I don't know, maybe Providence?
The UK didn't actually 'go mad' with it - the new built form was different to the freeways + low density suburbia you see in the US. Rather it was the bombing of the cities that saw in replacement with ugly concrete, rather than say parking lots and single family homes.

For example the centre of Manchester still looks like this, even with the carbuncles it's still dense, walkable and reliant on public transport:








And the built form on the ground makes for one of the most vibrant cities in the country, the architectural mix is crazy. The older buildings were taller than in London due to a lack of palaces, that demanded no height restrictions.




x







https://www.skyscrapercity.com/cdn-c...9-jpeg.574558/






Last edited by muppet; Apr 29, 2021 at 10:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:13 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.