GO Transit

[Duke-Of-Waterloo]

Originally Posted by yyzman

The trip will originate out of Waterloo University.

Very good to hear! I hope UW eventually builds a bus terminal, very similar to what the University of Guelph has. The bus bays outside the Davis Centre have no room to expand.

[timc]

Originally Posted by Duke-Of-Waterloo

Very good to hear! I hope UW eventually builds a bus terminal, very similar to what the University of Guelph has. The bus bays outside the Davis Centre have no room to expand.

I always thought the spot where Engineering 5 is would be a great place for a terminal. Now, of course, that's not an option anymore. So where would you imagine a terminal?

[DHLawrence]

Study supports $110M GO train plan from Milton to Cambridge
October 03, 2009
By Kevin Swayze, Record staff

CAMBRIDGE — After three decades pushing for a return of passenger train service to Cambridge, Lee Palvetzian is optimistic a new study shows it could be reality in five years.

“This is the closest we’ve ever been, by far,” said the founder of Cambridge’s passenger rail committee in 1977.

The last passenger train pulled out of the Galt Canadian Pacific Railway station in 1971.

Palvetzian was part of a $100,000 Waterloo Region study looking at extending GO trains west from Milton. It’s an idea that’s been pitched for decades but went nowhere, as GO struggled with a bottleneck at Milton.

Now a Cambridge expansion is firmly on track, Palvetzian said, with firm cost estimates of $110 million to build it. The study projects ridership topping 900 a day if trains started in 2011. By 2021, the 1,600 daily passengers could cover 80 per cent of costs, the standard GO aims for. By 2031, 2,800 daily passengers would easily cover all Cambridge operating costs.

“We’ve got very strong support” in the study, Palvetzian said. “It’s actually even more than what I was expecting.”

The study goes public Monday at a Cambridge city council meeting, starting at 7 p.m. at City Hall. Regional councillors consider it Tuesday in a 9 a.m. meeting of the planning and works committee at 150 Frederick St. in Kitchener.

Politicians are being asked to endorse the passenger rail feasibility study, take it to a meeting with GO officials to talk about finding the money for it, and start lobbying provincial and federal governments to build it.

The report says GO transit is ready to undertake an environmental study of a Cambridge-Milton extension in 2012. That would finalize details so all that’s needed is money to make it happen.

GO is also expected to announce extension of bus service from Milton into Cambridge and Kitchener-Waterloo later this month. That’s long been touted as a precursor to train service.

GO has nearly finished an environmental assessment of extending trains west from Georgetown through Guelph to Kitchener. To start, that would cost $153 million. Later, as more tracks and overnight storage areas for trains are built west of Kitchener, the cost would reach $549 million.

A Cambridge extension is a bargain compared to that, Palvetzian said. The $110 million for Cambridge includes four stations: one near Galt Collegiate Institute on main bus routes; near Clyde and Franklin for a park-and-ride; at Highway 6 South; and at Guelph Line, west of Milton.

Overnight train parking is proposed in Cambridge, as is twinning single tracks between Milton and Cambridge so passenger and freight trains can safely mingle along Canadian Pacific Railway’s main Ontario corridor.

Cambridge Mayor Doug Craig hadn’t read the report late Friday. Like Palvetzian, he wants Cambridge-Toronto trains sooner than later, to convince people out of their cars on Highway 401. At last count, 10,400 people a day commute from the region to Toronto daily, and 5,000 drive from Toronto west to the region.

What’s needed now is pressure on provincial and federal politicians to make GO trains a reality, Craig said.

“They run GO trains to farther places than Cambridge, they run GO buses farther distances,” he said.

“We haven’t been politically aggressive enough in this region.”

kswayze@therecord.com

I'm surprised at the number of stations they're planning. Samuelson and Franklin seem a bit close to me, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

The only way I can see the extension costing that little--particularly considering the need for a second track--is if CP moves all its shunting operations to the new yard in Ayr and transfers the Galt yard to GO. That would be a significant cost reduction.

[waterloowarrior]

cambridge GO staff report

Originally Posted by DHLawrence

I'm surprised at the number of stations they're planning.

Yeah, it will definitely add growth pressure to places like Campbellville (Guelph Line) and Morriston (highway 6 south) to have GO train stations there. We'll have to see how the greenbelt holds up.

[jcollins]

Is it one or the other....either the Georgetown - Kitchener line, or the Milton - Cambridge line?

[DHLawrence]

It looks like it's both, with the only decision unmade being "Which do we get first?"

[yyzman]

Waste of money, the train that is.
Everyone is dillusional, a 10 car double decker train rolling out of Cambridge?
You would be lucky to fill one car on that train on one trip.
Then it would travel 40km before it saw any volume.
I keep hearing the same being said about Guelph, "the train is coming to Guelph".
Would a train really benefit most commuters in the KW area?
The train only benefits those that it serves right now that work within walking distance of Union St.
Plus, ridership on the buses right now would not suggest a train would be coming in the near future.
Maybe 2020 or later, but in the next five years would be a gross misuse of tax money.

My opinion

[urbanfan89]

Originally Posted by yyzman

Waterloo / Kitchener to
SQ1 $12.30
Union St $14.35
Airport $12.20

from Cambridge
SQ1 $11.15
Union St $13.20
Airport $11.35

For students, it will still be cheaper (and probably faster, given the lack of stops in Mississauga and YYZ stops) to go by Greyhound while travelling to Downtown Toronto.

On the other hand, it will be much more convenient each time I fly out of YYZ. No more trips on 192 TTC -> subway to Union -> Greyhound!

[mpd618]

Originally Posted by yyzman

Waste of money, the train that is.
Everyone is dillusional, a 10 car double decker train rolling out of Cambridge?
You would be lucky to fill one car on that train on one trip.
Then it would travel 40km before it saw any volume.
I keep hearing the same being said about Guelph, "the train is coming to Guelph".
Would a train really benefit most commuters in the KW area?
The train only benefits those that it serves right now that work within walking distance of Union St.
Plus, ridership on the buses right now would not suggest a train would be coming in the near future.
Maybe 2020 or later, but in the next five years would be a gross misuse of tax money.

• Does it really matter if the train doesn't fill up right at the end station? I mean, you might as well chop off the ends of subway lines (repeatedly).
• There's tons of commuters between K-W and Guelph, so yes, it would benefit commuters here. Likewise, AFAIK, there are plenty of commuters from Cambridge to the GTA.
• Union Station is by no means the only relevant GO stop, and the Toronto subway is easily used by anyone commuting in to Union.
• Buses are not trains, and Greyhound buses aren't GO buses. Buses also travel exactly the same highway and get stuck in exactly the same traffic. Lots of other stuff about buses I could get into here, but... let's not.
• You can only build up so much ridership with buses. If you seriously want to convince people to leave their cars at home, give them trains. Not trains later, but trains now. However long you wait to run trains, that's how long ridership will rise and fall with the price of gas, but mostly not go very high.

As far as I know, GO has no problems with doing both line extensions. Nor should they, since Kitchener and Cambridge really are different markets.

[yyzman]

I have no problem with the train coming out this far, i just see it IMO as a waste of money, then again they could prove me wrong.
The one good thing about train expansion is that it free's up more buses for other routes.

Re-student fares.
Student fares are cheaper, but they can only be purchased as a 10 ride or monthly pass alond with the appropriate Student ID.
If the new service out of Kitchener / Cambridge does go through SQ1, i think this could prove to be very popular with Airport travellers. Espesially for that price.

[yyzman]

GO Transit's biggest downfall.

GO's biggest downfall is the lack of advertisment of new service.
The new route comes into effect in less than 4 weeks now and still no one, not even GO drivers know where it is going and what route.
This company frustrates me constantly with it's poor desicions.
For the past 24 months, the U of Guelph service is still running on low ridership after all this time and as of only just the otherday new customers are finding the service by accident.
"we never new there was a service to SQ1"? is often used.
18 months ago i asked why don't the buses say SQ1 on them instead of Cooksville. Most people don't know where Cooksville is and to be honest hardly anyone goes there, but everyone knows of SQ1, main bus hub for Mississauga, Ontario's largest mall.
But GO insists it has to say Cooksville on the front of the bus.
Something to do with funding.
They get more goverment funding if the trip ends at a Rail station, even if that rail station has no trains running through it all day.
There are several routes right now that GO does not advertise to people.
The Airport bus is another, frequent service all day, 35,000 people work at YYZ yet the bus carries a handfull.
So getting back on track, we are 3+ weeks away from service and no one knows anything.

[yyzman]

Originally Posted by mpd618

• Does it really matter if the train doesn't fill up right at the end station? I mean, you might as well chop off the ends of subway lines (repeatedly).
• There's tons of commuters between K-W and Guelph, so yes, it would benefit commuters here. Likewise, AFAIK, there are plenty of commuters from Cambridge to the GTA.
• Union Station is by no means the only relevant GO stop, and the Toronto subway is easily used by anyone commuting in to Union.
• Buses are not trains, and Greyhound buses aren't GO buses. Buses also travel exactly the same highway and get stuck in exactly the same traffic. Lots of other stuff about buses I could get into here, but... let's not.
• You can only build up so much ridership with buses. If you seriously want to convince people to leave their cars at home, give them trains. Not trains later, but trains now. However long you wait to run trains, that's how long ridership will rise and fall with the price of gas, but mostly not go very high.

As far as I know, GO has no problems with doing both line extensions. Nor should they, since Kitchener and Cambridge really are different markets.

Maybe we should try convincing people to live a little closer to there job too, that would surely help on the carbon footprint.
How far is too far to commute? we can't cater for all, a little commonsense has to come into play here too.

[DHLawrence]

Not everybody uses GO to commute. Some use it for travel because it's either cheaper than VIA or because VIA doesn't serve their town--either at all, or when they need it.

Whenever I go to Toronto, I drive down to Aldershot and take the train in. If the promised all-day Milton Line service becomes a reality, that will save me a drive.

As for only serving those immediately around Union Station, you're forgetting that the Milton Line also connects with the TTC at Kipling. A few steps and you're on the subway headed for uptown Toronto--an entirely different area. And should the long-discussed crosstown line ever move past the drawing board, it will be simple to change from the GO train bound for Union for a GO train bound for the other side of Toronto.

Yes, GO trains to Kitchener and Cambridge will be highly impractical for TO-bound commuters who don't want to get up at 4 AM. However, what we're witnessing is the transformation of GO from something other than a Suburb X-Union Station rush hour service. I can foresee GO changing from a spider-shaped hub-and-spoke system to one that's shaped more like a spider web, with hubs all over the larger GTA, if not the whole province. Kitchener, Cambridge, Hamilton, Cooksville, North Toronto--all could easily become transport hubs in their own right with enough investment and enough infrastructure.

[yyzman]

Only the trains would connect you to the subway at Kipling, after that 2hr rush hour you would be stranded.
I think you are right in saying "Suburb X-Union Station rush hour".
It makes more sense to connect all the other major towns and Cities.

With that said, still no word on whom is going to step up and take over the Kitchener - Hamilton route that Coach Canada have given up on.

[mpd618]

Originally Posted by yyzman

GO's biggest downfall is the lack of advertisment of new service. The new route comes into effect in less than 4 weeks now and still no one, not even GO drivers know where it is going and what route.

That's inexcusable. (Unless it's GO implementing service as soon as it makes a decision? Though I'm not sure that's a good excuse.)

Originally Posted by yyzman

Maybe we should try convincing people to live a little closer to there job too, that would surely help on the carbon footprint.
How far is too far to commute? we can't cater for all, a little commonsense has to come into play here too.

I don't think we should be trying to convince people to change their ways, because that's futile. Give them better options -- such as taking the train instead of the 401 -- or make it more expensive to commute by highway and to park at the end location. Carrot and stick. But they're not wrong for using the free highways and free parking that they're given.

So back to GO: If there is a reasonable number of people already commuting by car between Cambridge and the GTA whose trips could be served by GO, then that is sufficient justification for service. The comparison is not to the absence of those commuters, but to the commute the way it currently is.

Of course, we should consider whether the existence of a GO link would spur more longer-distance commuters, and what effect that might have on the communities it goes through. I can't imagine downtown stations having negative impacts, but park and ride stations may.

Originally Posted by DHLawrence

Not everybody uses GO to commute. Some use it for travel because it's either cheaper than VIA or because VIA doesn't serve their town--either at all, or when they need it.

Whenever I go to Toronto, I drive down to Aldershot and take the train in. If the promised all-day Milton Line service becomes a reality, that will save me a drive.

At least as far as the Kitchener extension is concerned, GO wants it to eventually be all day hourly service. That will be of excellent use for occasional inter-city travel, so it makes sense to think of initial commuter service as a foot in the door for that.

[mpd618]

Originally Posted by yyzman

With that said, still no word on whom is going to step up and take over the Kitchener - Hamilton route that Coach Canada have given up on.

Do you mean Guelph - Hamilton? Kitchener - Hamilton appears to still exist.

Originally Posted by yyzman

Maybe we should try convincing people to live a little closer to there job too, that would surely help on the carbon footprint.
How far is too far to commute? we can't cater for all, a little commonsense has to come into play here too.

I certainly agree with you. Rational personal decisions are very important in this matter.

We have to be careful with the "10,400 Waterloo Region residents commute to the GTA for employment" misonomer. Many, if not most, of these people will not be taking the GO train, even if times were competitive with auto travel (certainly not the case on the proposed Kitchener-Georgetown line).

With the Cambridge-Milton line alone, only 1200 people commute to the City of Toronto (416 area code). It is hard to say how many of them work downtown and along the Bloor subway line, but let's give a generous estimate of 900. If the service takes as long or longer than driving, how many people will ride the train? Also, not everyone's schedule is the perfect 9-5. Some people are forced to drive because of their hours (i.e. they can get the train there, but not back). Keep in mind, this even assumes the travel times are competitive, which is the #1 issue with extending the lines to Kitchener and Cambridge.

Originally Posted by DHLawrence

Yes, GO trains to Kitchener and Cambridge will be highly impractical for TO-bound commuters who don't want to get up at 4 AM. However, what we're witnessing is the transformation of GO from something other than a Suburb X-Union Station rush hour service. I can foresee GO changing from a spider-shaped hub-and-spoke system to one that's shaped more like a spider web, with hubs all over the larger GTA, if not the whole province. Kitchener, Cambridge, Hamilton, Cooksville, North Toronto--all could easily become transport hubs in their own right with enough investment and enough infrastructure.

IMO, this is the only way GO will successfully be able to expand to long distances such as this. The big problem on the 401 and other highways is suburb-to-suburb traffic, trucking traffic, along with passing-through traffic, not so much traffic going to downtown Toronto.

Originally Posted by yyzman

Waste of money, the train that is.
Everyone is dillusional, a 10 car double decker train rolling out of Cambridge?
You would be lucky to fill one car on that train on one trip.
Then it would travel 40km before it saw any volume.
I keep hearing the same being said about Guelph, "the train is coming to Guelph".
Would a train really benefit most commuters in the KW area?
The train only benefits those that it serves right now that work within walking distance of Union St.
Plus, ridership on the buses right now would not suggest a train would be coming in the near future.
Maybe 2020 or later, but in the next five years would be a gross misuse of tax money.

My opinion

I don't think better GO busses and general inter-regional transit is a waste of money, but it definitely boggles my mind that so many people believe it should be a bigger priority than rapid transit within the region. I did a significant amount of volunteering in downtown Toronto this summer, and took the greyhound a lot...during rush hour even. I can tell you with certainly that the iXpress and route 7 are much busier busses.

That said, I think the Pearson airport bus connection will be very popular if advertised well. Let's face it, most locals use Pearson, not the Waterloo airport, simply because our airport doesn't offer much selection unless you want to get everywhere by flying to Detroit first.

[Ontario1]

That said, I think the Pearson airport bus connection will be very popular if advertised well. Let's face it, most locals use Pearson, not the Waterloo airport, simply because our airport doesn't offer much selection unless you want to get everywhere by flying to Detroit first.

There are no flights to Detroit from Kitchener.