Austin's $10 Billion Expanded Rail with Subway Plan Approved

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

didnt somebody get a subway system after that? atlanta or dc i think? the start there was tied to seattle declining to move forward.

Atlanta got the federal funding that had been allocated to Seattle.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Atlanta got the federal funding that had been allocated to Seattle.

Altanta with it's few metro lines, subway or not, still has amongst the worse highway congestion in the country. Building a few transit lines will not solve highway congestion. Building many transit lines will.
Austin is just starting to build transit lines. It is important to keep costs low so more transit lines will get built. Having just a few great transit lines does not nor never will reduce traffic congestion.

[Busy Bee]

It's safe to say no amount of rapid rail will keep auto traffic at bay in a metro with the kind of absurd land use practices you see in Atlanta. It's not much different than Houston, Dallas, Phoenix when it comes to horrendous, mindless, separated use and low density auto sprawl.

[Doady]

lol, Atlanta's sprawl is on a whole different level compared to Houston, Dallas, and Phoenix.

But yeah, reality is rail does not get people of their cars. Dallas has the largest light rail system in the USA, and it has the worst transit ridership in Texas. It was only in 2019 that DART saw a 30% ridership increase after a major expansion of the bus system, and rail ridership actually declined that year.

You look across the USA and Canada, there is not a single city where transit ridership increased due to rail expansion. It didn't happen in Dallas and it won't happen in Austin.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

It's safe to say no amount of rapid rail will keep auto traffic at bay in a metro with the kind of absurd land use practices you see in Atlanta. It's not much different than Houston, Dallas, Phoenix when it comes to horrendous, mindless, separated use and low density auto sprawl.

Kind of agree with you about housing density. But, when families pay hundreds of thousands dollars for a new home, they do not want to live with noisy neighbors on the other side of a hollow wall. People buy single family homes in the suburbs for a reason.

[Busy Bee]

The choices aren't between SFH and tenement. Look at the dense family neighborhood archetypes in other places, including here in the US.

[Sir610Jawnman]

Austin's light rail model to emulate should be Calgary instead of Vancouver. Calgary's geography and urban fabric is somewhat similar and they have successfully implemented light rail with really high ridership. If Austin can achieve 1/3 of Calgary's numbers it would be hailed as a success.

[Busy Bee]

^ True indeed.

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by electricron

Kind of agree with you about housing density. But, when families pay hundreds of thousands dollars for a new home, they do not want to live with noisy neighbors on the other side of a hollow wall. People buy single family homes in the suburbs for a reason.

Yes, that reason is better schools and lower housing prices, not because they want to be confined in auto-dependent sprawl where “you have to use a gallon of gas to go the the store to buy a gallon of milk.”

Walkable neighborhoods, including in cities and inner suburbs are very desirable places, as seen by the high home values in these neighborhoods.

[Busy Bee]

Well said.

[Metro-One]

When Calgary built the C-Train its metro population was well under 1 million. I think around 700 000. Calgary is now around 1.3 million and is planning to build a subway through the downtown core with its next line, the Green Line.

Austin is currently at 2.4 million...

I just feel with an at grade LRT they are just getting the worst of both worlds. An inadequate rail system with a huge cost.

Either build an adequate backbone to your future rail system, or build no rail at all and invest that money in a robust bus transit system.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by electricron

Kind of agree with you about housing density. But, when families pay hundreds of thousands dollars for a new home, they do not want to live with noisy neighbors on the other side of a hollow wall. People buy single family homes in the suburbs for a reason.

err, hate to break it to you tex, but many families pay that money and much more for apts and terracehouses and not all the walls are hollow.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Doady

lol, Atlanta's sprawl is on a whole different level compared to Houston, Dallas, and Phoenix.

But yeah, reality is rail does not get people of their cars.

The MARTA subway's north/south line forms a very useful spine beneath the downtown. But the utility of station locations deteriorates outside of that area, with few other stations in the entire system serving a traditional business district. Instead, we get stations in weird locations where they're doomed to bus transfers and park-and-rides.

We see similar sins all over the United States. Even the Washington Metro has giant money-saving errors, like the Ft. Totten transfer between the Red and Green lines, situated is in a gully next to a gravel pile:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9516...2688?entry=ttu

All of the development potential and networking effect that ought to have resulted from a transfer between two metro lines is completely wasted in the name of saving money on the cost of the transfer station.

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by electricron

Kind of agree with you about housing density. But, when families pay hundreds of thousands dollars for a new home, they do not want to live with noisy neighbors on the other side of a hollow wall. People buy single family homes in the suburbs for a reason.

Probably because we have set up our entire society to promote and subsidize single-family homes in the suburbs. Many of these people have no idea what life is like in a city, they only learn about it through false comments that reinforce existing beliefs. Like the one above.

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by Doady

Dallas has the largest light rail system in the USA, and it has the worst transit ridership in Texas. It was only in 2019 that DART saw a 30% ridership increase after a major expansion of the bus system, and rail ridership actually declined that year.

This further enforces the idea that light rail might not be the ideal solution. It doesn't prove that heavy rail wouldn't work.

Originally Posted by Doady

You look across the USA and Canada, there is not a single city where transit ridership increased due to rail expansion. It didn't happen in Dallas and it won't happen in Austin.

This doesn't pass the smell test. You are essentially suggesting that just as many people would take transit in Chicago if we demolished the Red Line? If a city expands from no transit to a single rail line, would they increase ridership?

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by moorhosj1

This doesn't pass the smell test. You are essentially suggesting that just as many people would take transit in Chicago if we demolished the Red Line? If a city expands from no transit to a single rail line, would they increase ridership?

I would expect that a surface light rail line that travels at the exact same average speed as the bus service it replaces ought to attract somewhat higher ridership. But a fully grade-separate line along that same corridor will attract much more ridership.

The advantage of light rail over heavy rail is that some grade crossings can remain, which means enormous cost savings where $50 million or more might be needed to bridge a small side street.

A single grade separation underway in Los Angeles for the existing commuter rail (and future high speed rail) is costing $150 million.

[Busy Bee]

^ In defense of that particular LA grade crossing elimination it's a pretty complicated design that uses almost a switchback to gain grade. Yeah 150 million is still high though.

[mhays]

I wonder if the same self-driving tech that applies to cars will eventually apply to rail...maybe we won't need drivers even for systems that cross streets? That would save a hell of lot of money if it can be done without adding risk.

As for Dallas, despite the big light rail map it's still a low-transit city overall. Total ridership was horrible in Q1, and a big part seems to be very small bus numbers. Rail isn't very frequent, massive amounts of parking are available everywhere...

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by mhays

I wonder if the same self-driving tech that applies to cars will eventually apply to rail...maybe we won't need drivers even for systems that cross streets? That would save a hell of lot of money if it can be done without adding risk.

I've reread this three times and I still don't know what it means. Please clarify what you're talking about.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I've reread this three times and I still don't know what it means. Please clarify what you're talking about.

My guess:

Automated systems with driverless trains that communicate with automated driverless systems in personal vehicles would create an information ecosystem that would allow us to build safe at-grade crossings.

e.g. The trains would communicate their locations to vehicles, and vehicles would not be allowed to cross an at-grade crossing.

My thoughts:

What I think this comment misses is that grade separation, although it certainly has safety ramifications, is pursued to be able to effectively allow higher frequency on the rail line while also maintaining the effective traffic volume of the road. If too many trains pass every so often, cross streets at at-grade crossings will cease to function efficiently whether there are drivers or whether the vehicles are automated and communicate with each other. Because this is the case, even if we do reach a point where trains are universally driverless and automated, the pressures for grade separation will still exist. Politically speaking, driverless automation may actually create a political coalition enforcing grade separation for redundant safety on the basis that they don’t trust the ghosts in the machine to protect us from the trains and I share that sentiment.